Going into the dark places


MattS
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I am an inactive member of the church, and for the last three years have been attending church with the Salvation Army (yes, it is a Christian church, not just a thrift store).

What I like about the Salvation Army is that they're not afraid to go into the dark places, places where immorality is happening, places where people are lost.

They will go into the bars, they even have groups of women who minister to the women who are street workers or who work in brothels. They're there when people are in prison and when they finally get released.

During my time at the Salvation Army, I have been with some pretty immodest people, been with drunkards, drug users, people who have been in prison. I have sat in church and heard the call from the Officer (the Officers are the clergy in the Salvation Army) for people to come to the mercy seat, to receive prayer, to turn their life around.

This would not happen unless they went into the dark places, formed relationships with people who would be considered less desirable, and are not afraid to get their hands dirty.

When I was an active member of the LDS Church, it was always harped on about how members should avoid these places (bars, brothels and so forth), and missionaries especially were banned from going anywhere near the red light district of Australia (Kings Cross).

Aren't these places where the lost sheep are, where Christians should be making a deliberate attempt to go into, to bring the light of Jesus? If Jesus were on earth today, I am sure He would be ministering to these people, and not afraid to do so.

The Bible makes mention of Jesus eating with "sinners", and the Pharisees criticising him for doing so. This is one thing which keeps me from becoming active again, because I cannot morally or spiritually reject these people who live on the streets, sell their bodies and consume intoxicating substances to the point of addiction.

You go to these places with FAITH, not on your own strength. I understand there are arguments that to go into these places puts at risk your own spirituality, own righteousness. But it is about putting FAITH to WORK.

Worthy is the Lamb:

.

Edited by MattS
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LDS go into the jail and prisons as well. I had a friend that was assigned with his wife to be hometeachers at the local prison.

I see LDS men visiting the jail every week to talk and administer help and advice when I go to visit my son.

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  • 1 month later...

The Bible makes mention of Jesus eating with "sinners", and the Pharisees criticising him for doing so. This is one thing which keeps me from becoming active again, because I cannot morally or spiritually reject these people who live on the streets, sell their bodies and consume intoxicating substances to the point of addiction.

I am a little confused, how does becoming active again keep you from these places? There is a huge difference between ministering at these places, and participating at these places.

Telling youth to keep away from bars is telling youth to keep away from drinking and other harmful substances.

As Pam already suggested the Church has plenty of people ministering to dark places all the time. On my mission I ministered to hookers, drug addicts, etc..., however you would have never seen me go into a brothel for more than one reason. Why would anyone go into a brothel to minister, you minister to people on the streets, in their homes, but typically not their place of work.

Every missionary learns quickly, that we go with the Lords strength. If you feel it is OK to minister inside a brothel, a bar, a jail, etc... that is purely up to you, but don't judge others because they don't feel the same way as you do.

I can only imagine if I went to minister at a brothel what my wife would be thinking. :eek:

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  • 2 months later...

During the Early days of the AIDS outbreak, there were some religious groups that gave drug addicts clean needles, rounded up prostitutes, gave them rides to a local free health clinic, and during times of a Serial Killer is killing prostitutes, they go around the city making sure the prostitutes are safe.

There is an anti-porn religious group that advertises their site as a porn site, they go to porn conventions, they even created an educational video for kids on what to do if they accidently watch one of their parents porn videos, they had one of the most well-known porn star/director to help them make the video.

Where is the line between help and enabling? That is a hard question to answer. I can understand saying, “If they are going to do drugs, have sex, or whatever, I’ll at least want them to be as safe, as possible, while doing it.”

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I think the most powerful and effective thing that any follower of christ to do is to raise up a righteous family first and then to share the gospel. I believe it's the reason why satan and the worlds focus is to destroy the family. Our circle of influence is most effective when we focus on our families rather then the homeless and addicted. Having been thru Al-Anon courses and experienced even trying to help someone in my own family who is an addict I can tell you when you step into their world to help them, you become subject to the addiction. You are now on their boat and when they rock their boat you can feel it. It takes allot of skill to be able to stay in your own boat and help someone struggling in theirs.

We have been taught that we are to be in the world but not of the world, so I definately believe that allot of good work get's done in the dark places by those who have been called to do so. Like my former Bishop who regularly, as part of his calling, ministered to those in the local Prison.

Also while it's sad to see the Les Miserables of the world, I promise you there is plenty of good work within each ward to keep a Bishop and his family skirting the edge of oblivian as they seek to to meet the needs of those they have stewardship. Seriously, if you know even half the struggles of some of the members, you would be amazed.

I'm reminded of an experience my older brother had on his mission in Philly. In High School he could bench over 300 pounds and was a real scrapper. He was a bullys bully and loved to find those who prey on others and teach them "lessons". On his mission he passed an ally where a pimp was beating up a prostitute. He immediately started toward the pimp to prevent what was occuring and he said out of no where a man appeared and told him he was not to go down the ally and told him to leave. My brother said he felt a strong spiritual prompting to do as this man said and he left. We need to follow the spirit and only enter a "Dark Place" if we are prompted to do so.

Like Anddenex said on my mission in Japan I also taught Yakuza (Japanese Mafia, they speak a dialect of Japanese that is unmistakable and they are covered in Irezumi (tatto)) as well as South East Asian call girls working in Japan (turned these over the sisters asap). So we did teach allot of people who have lived hard and diffucult lives.

Outside of teaching living and spreading the gospel within our own families, those we have stewardship (families we home teach) and those we come in contact with, there are plenty of opportunities to help those around us.

Look at the life of Denny Hancock an LDS Seattle Businessman who started Mamma's Hands. One of the most effective efforts outside the church to help people that I have ever come across. When I head back to the NW I plan to contact him and see what I can do to help.

Our Story | Mamma's Hands

Edited by Windseeker
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I think the most powerful and effective thing that any follower of christ to do is to raise up a righteous family first and then to share the gospel. I believe it's the reason why satan and the worlds focus is to destroy the family. Our circle of influence is most effective when we focus on our families rather then the homeless and addicted. Having been thru Al-Anon courses and experienced even trying to help someone in my own family who is an addict I can tell you when you step into their world to help them, you become subject to the addiction. You are now on their boat and when they rock their boat you can feel it. It takes allot of skill to be able to stay in your own boat and help someone struggling in theirs.

We have been taught that we are to be in the world but not of the world, so I definately believe that allot of good work get's done in the dark places by those who have been called to do so. Like my former Bishop who regularly, as part of his calling, ministered to those in the local Prison.

Also while it's sad to see the Les Miserables of the world, I promise you there is plenty of good work within each ward to keep a Bishop and his family skirting the edge of oblivian as they seek to to meet the needs of those they have stewardship. Seriously, if you know even half the struggles of some of the members, you would be amazed.

I'm reminded of an experience my older brother had on his mission in Philly. In High School he could bench over 300 pounds and was a real scrapper. He was a bullys bully and loved to find those who prey on others and teach them "lessons". On his mission he passed an ally where a pimp was beating up a prostitute. He immediately started toward the pimp to prevent what was occuring and he said out of no where a man appeared and told him he was not to go down the ally and told him to leave. My brother said he felt a strong spiritual prompting to do as this man said and he left. We need to follow the spirit and only enter a "Dark Place" if we are prompted to do so.

Like Anddenex said on my mission in Japan I also taught Yakuza (Japanese Mafia, they speak a dialect of Japanese that is unmistakable and they are covered in Irezumi (tatto)) as well as South East Asian call girls working in Japan (turned these over the sisters asap). So we did teach allot of people who have lived hard and diffucult lives.

Outside of teaching living and spreading the gospel within our own families, those we have stewardship (families we home teach) and those we come in contact with, there are plenty of opportunities to help those around us.

Look at the life of Denny Hancock an LDS Seattle Businessman who started Mamma's Hands. One of the most effective efforts outside the church to help people that I have ever come across. When I head back to the NW I plan to contact him and see what I can do to help.

Our Story | Mamma's Hands

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I can understand saying, “If they are going to do drugs, have sex, or whatever, I’ll at least want them to be as safe, as possible, while doing it.”

Sorry, but this line of thought just really bothers me. It is the same mind-set that the public schools have taken in handing out condoms. To me it is like saying "Let me teach you how to become a really good thief because if you're going to steal anyway at least I don't want you to get caught".

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What I like about the Salvation Army is that they're not afraid to go into the dark places, places where immorality is happening, places where people are lost.

When I was an active member of the LDS Church, it was always harped on about how members should avoid these places (bars, brothels and so forth), and missionaries especially were banned from going anywhere near the red light district of Australia (Kings Cross).

And so...like any new convert....you felt the need to return and "cry repentance" to the unfortunate wretches and lamentable dupes you left behind...

Gee, thanks.

As others have shown, your condemnation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is built on a false premise.

We DO minister to the lost, the fallen, and the needful.

We DO reach out to the sinner and invite them to come to Christ.

By way of full disclosure, my family has been involved with the Salvation Army for four generations.

My great-uncle died not too long ago a Major in the S.A.

Walt Winters Obituary: View Walt Winters's Obituary by Rockford Register Star

We, as a family, are both proud and grateful for his service and his dedication to Christ.

But we love and respect him with few illusions about the earthly organization which he served.

Like any other earthly organization- and despite what your new-convert-blush is telling you, the Salvation Army is not perfect.

While I won't say that there was out-and-out coersion involved, my family has seen a lot of arm-twisting, and a lot social and religious pressure brought to bear- even to putting the organization before the welfare of one's family and children.

Yes- the Salvation Army does corporal work, and I happily support their missions to the indigent, the lost, the hungry, the cold, and the drifting.

But your "my new church is better than your church" rant is myopic at best.

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Good afternoon MattS. I hope you are doing well! :)

When I was an active member of the LDS Church, it was always harped on about how members should avoid these places (bars, brothels and so forth), and missionaries especially were banned from going anywhere near the red light district of Australia (Kings Cross).

Aren't these places where the lost sheep are, where Christians should be making a deliberate attempt to go into, to bring the light of Jesus? If Jesus were on earth today, I am sure He would be ministering to these people, and not afraid to do so.

We don't necessarily need to go to the actual brothels, bars, or red light districts in order to preach the gospel to those who use those places.

I am a home teacher. Through out the years I have been a home teacher to all sorts of people. People who have been addicted to drugs, to sex, to all sorts of things and live in very poor conditions. I have visited and preached the gospel to the lost sheep. I've visited and preached the gospel to those that might be going to the bars, to the brothels, and so forth, but I've preached the gospel in their homes, a much better environment. Not only that, through home teaching, I've been able to consistently visit them, rather than just a one time witness. I've prayed over them, not just once, but many times. I've gotten to know them personally and their families. I think this is a very powerful way to reach out and bring the gospel to the desirables, the undesirables, or the in betweens.

I am not speaking down at the Salvation Army and their efforts, which I think are wonderful. I'm simply saying that we don't need to go in to the mud to preach the gospel to people who are muddy because they've been in the mud. Finally, I'm sure you will find plenty of Mormons who have done exactly what you have described. It is all a matter of following the Spirit and doing as the Spirit directs.

Regards,

Finrock

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I've visited and preached the gospel to those that might be going to the bars, to the brothels, and so forth, but I've preached the gospel in their homes, a much better environment. Not only that, through home teaching, I've been able to consistently visit them, rather than just a one time witness. I've prayed over them, not just once, but many times. I've gotten to know them personally and their families. I think this is a very powerful way to reach out and bring the gospel to the desirables, the undesirables, or the in betweens.

QFT

Awesome stuff, this really touched me I stand rebuked. I can relate with the OP it's a romantic ideal going ministering to the poor and the needy as the Savior did, but I often forget the opportunity is right in front of my face and I have been called and assigned to do just that.

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Sorry, but this line of thought just really bothers me. It is the same mind-set that the public schools have taken in handing out condoms. To me it is like saying "Let me teach you how to become a really good thief because if you're going to steal anyway at least I don't want you to get caught".

Hmmmmmm: I agree with this statement - I believe it is contrary to an honest individual (an enlightened or inspired being) to teach truth by description or deliberately hiding anything. I put this kind of thing in a similar category as those that hold different (higher) standards for others than what they hold for themselves, organizations to which they belong or individuals they hold in high esteem.

The Traveler

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Hmmmmmm: I agree with this statement

:thumbsup:

I believe it is contrary to an honest individual (an enlightened or inspired being) to teach truth by description or deliberately hiding anything.

Well we can stipulate that both of us would agree that someone who is deliberately hiding anything would be less than honest in most circumstances. But consider this. You witness an accident; a two year old little girl walks out into the street and is hit by a car. You run to her and hold her in your arms and she is in incredible pain. Before the EMT's arrive she dies in your arms. What do you tell the mother when she finally gets there? Do you describe the intense pain her daughter suffered before she died? Or do you look for words to comfort her? Might you deliberately hide the truth? I would. Am I less than honest? Maybe.

You say "it is contrary to an honest individual (an enlightened or inspired being) to teach truth by description..." How does one teach a truth and not describe it?

I put this kind of thing in a similar category as those that hold different (higher) standards for others than what they hold for themselves, organizations to which they belong or individuals they hold in high esteem.

The Traveler

Okay.

Edited by StephenVH
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