Does anyone else feel like men are picked on in the church?


bonanzafan
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Sunday in my YSA ward in--you guessed it--Provo, we had an "experts" panel on dating. It was a real turn off seeing the flippancy of one woman, while her husband stoically took it. I felt so bad for him having to hear her portray their experience from her still arrogant perspective. It's a common thing I've seen often in so many families. Men are now property of women. Just the other day at Target in Orem, a young couple was in line behind me and the tone of the wife's voice toward her husband made me sick. You would have thought he was about to rob a bank the way she jumped all over him for putting the groceries on the conveyor belt in poor fashion, according to her. He quietly, and in the manner to be imagined a slave to portray, apologized to her and did as he was told. Oh how the pendulum swings and hits the more docile party. Isn't it too bad that mildness and kindness and sincerity really aren't celebrated in common forethought the way we praise ourselves for doing so? That shallow wall of hers, that women are entitled to the perfect man, is every reason you and your daughters don't get asked out. It's terrifying and humiliating to have to play that game. Do you wonder why you're all getting divorced ten years into marriage? Your husband's porn problem is just a smokescreen symptom....When did you turn off the bridezilla act and leave it off?

My experience: grew up with an abusive father and a mother who resented him for that and projected it onto her sons. Every girl I've dated since my mission has had cases of sexual abuse from a brother in her childhood. More than 75% of them have been physically abusive toward me. The last one shared me with a married man she had been sexually involved with but was "only good friends with" while she and I dated. I am feeling so defeated (and have been for the last 15 years) in trying to keep listening and trying to find a girl who respects people instead of trying to take from them.

Women, you need to be sensitive to who's listening instead of who won't.

And the whole Twilight craze is nothing different than celebrated emotional pornography warned of by PROPHETS.

Edited by bonanzafan
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Your husband's porn problem is just a smokescreen symptom...

So wildly beyond inappropriate to suggest that it's a wife's fault that her husband has a pornography problem. Absolutely not the truth.

Especially when you consider that most males who develop pornography addictions are first exposed to that at age 10.

Edited by Wingnut
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I'm sorry you've had to go through so much pain in the dating world. Unfortunately, the majority of people- both men and women- are shallow. And even those who are not shallow are often fooled by the portrayals of relationships in the media and fairy tales. Instead of preparing them for a relationship with true give-and-take, compromise and understanding, love and compassion- much of the world has turned dating into little more than a selfish game.

And then, even in those shallow misunderstanding people are children of our Heavenly Father only looking for happiness. Behind their mistreatments and their rediculous expectations and ideals, they are looking for the same thing you are and just don't realize they are going about it all wrong.

I decided long ago that the best way to find a good relationship is to stop looking for one. Instead, I work on myself. How can I expect to find a man that will complement my strengths if I do not first work on those strengths? A relationship won't make me whole- the gospel will. So, I strive to live my life to the fullest and enjoy my circumstances as they are, always working to make myself better, stronger, and more complete. And eventually, the good relationship I would like to have will come when I am ready to be a support to someone else as eqaully motivated and driven as I am.

Don't let your bad experiences make you bitter. Rise above it. Much of what you see comes from a lack of maturity, which will come with time and experience. And still more comes from misunderstandings that can be worked out between couples as they learn to get along with one another and treat each other with respect- again something that comes with time and experience.

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I agree that there are some women out there who unwisely treat their husbands as another child. There are some husbands who unwisely take that behavior. I don't keep friendships with women who treat or speak of their husbands badly.

Thankfully, there are also a lot of women in and out of the church who treat their husbands with the tenderness and respect that they should, and husbands who cherish their wives in return.

I find that you see what you're looking for most of all.

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If you feel men are picked on because of some women, picking on good women is not the answer. Don't take out your frustrations on good wives whose husbands have been addicted to porn since they were kids. It's not like these boys decided to look at porn in anticipation of being treated crappy by their wives in a couple decades. :rolleyes:

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Every girl I've dated since my mission has had cases of sexual abuse from a brother in her childhood. More than 75% of them have been physically abusive toward me. The last one shared me with a married man she had been sexually involved with but was "only good friends with" while she and I dated.

Yeesh! It's true that I'm over a decade removed from the dating pool and have no vested interest in the answer, but where the heck do you go to find women? I'm having a hard time believing your experience is the norm...
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No two marriages are the same so generalizations have limited value, but since we're all generalizing here I'll join in. Most marriages I know the wife is struggling with the kids and the household responsibilities in a disproportionate amount compared to the husband. The family is what life is about, not the football game on tv or the new jet ski dad wants.

Joseph Smith taught the Relief Society sisters that they should provoke the Priesthood to righteousness. In most cases I've known the "nagging wife" was trying to get the "couch potato husband" to contribute more effort to the family.

Again, those are generalizations and no need to tell me your situation is different. The stereotype of the husband laying on the couch watching the game while the wife is making dinner and chasing the kids didn't become a stereotype because we don't all know a dozen families like that.

I personally call my brethren on the way they treat their wives frequently. I am thankful that I belong to a church that reinforces the real meaning of life is a successful home, not a great career or rewarding hobby. No success can compensate for failure in the home. Get off the couch, do your share, and leave your eternal partner no need to "provoke you to righteousness."

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Sweetheart... I mean this kindly, and from experience... When the same thing keeps happening over and over: The common denominator is ME.

I have a certain 'type' of man that just sparks my eyes. The problem with that type is that they tend to be abusive. That doesn't mean all men are abusive, that just means Im ATTRACTED to the very subtle signs in a person that hallmark an abuser.

Bad JuJu.

And is in no small part why I've sworn off dating for several years. My husband was abusive. My last few boyfriends before him were abusive. Says NOTHING about men in general. Says a LOT about ME. So I've called a moratorium on dating for the foreseeae future. Otherwise Im just repeating the same mistakes over and over, expecting different results.

_____

What I'm hearing from you is a lot of blame & fear. From experience, neither is very useful.

You can pick apart other people's marriages, even though they might be perfect for Each Other, you can blame your mom for staying with your dad/ or leaving him (Did you note that you said her resentment affected you, but not his abuse? That's a big red flag, sweetie, that you're still in fight or flight mode... Blaming the victim instead of the assailant makes us feel "safe" because if its their own fault they got hurt, then we can just NOT do what they did, and not get hurt. Life doesn't work that way though), you can blame one person for the thoughts of another... But the only thing that will give you is a false sense of security and superiority, and bitterness... Meanwhile making you a choice target for every predator out there. Because predators can smell the denial and the fear... OR set you up to become that which you fear the most.

It's no great leap that a child raised in an abusive home will be attracted to the same kind of chaos and dysfunction they're familiar with. Until you work on YOURSELF, that attraction isn't going to alter.

But it's not "women". It's "women I'm attracted to". Big. Big. Big. Difference.

A very good counselor can really help you deal with the Family of Origin stuff you're struggling with. You're justifiably in a lot of pain. But here is the GREAT news: When the common denominator is ME, then I CAN fix that. :D :D :D

__________

((My background isn't FoO, but its just as annoyingly predictable. All the men I dated before this event/period in my life were really GOOD men. After this event/period in my life, my 'type' shifted. So I'm lucky in being able to see the difference really clearly. For those with FoO stuff, it requires a LOT of bravery, because there generally isn't the comparison to make. Instead they have to start completely fresh and with a lot more discomfort.))

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Just thought to add... I actually got in an argument with the mission president not long ago on the subject of my not dating. I finally broke down in frustration (Im sure he was trying to be kind, but he was NOT 'getting it'), laughed, and said:

"Look, right now my standards are so low that I wouldn't know a good man if he walked up and hit me with a stick. Or rather, that's when I'd finally realize he wasn't a good man."

Edited by BadWolf
Fat fingers
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Sisters, if a woman came on this site complaining that she felt put down and devalued by men, and even cited a specific example of a man talking badly about his wife while she sat meekly by and another example of a man excoriating his wife publicly while she apologized for her imaginary bad behavior, I am quite sure you would be much more supportive of her and less prone to criticizing her overgeneralizations and focus in on one particular part of her post that may have stepped a bit too far. I suspect this because I have seen it happen many times on this site.

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Does anyone else feel like men are picked on in the church?

Yes, every time polygamy is introduced into a conversation. Right now Seminary is picking on me... ;)

I know, I am awful, but you still, well might, like me...as a brother of course.

Sunday in my YSA ward in--you guessed it--Provo, we had an "experts" panel on dating. It was a real turn off seeing the flippancy of one woman, while her husband stoically took it. I felt so bad for him having to hear her portray their experience from her still arrogant perspective.

The real question here, is did the husband think his wife was being arrogant? If not, you don't need to defend him. He may have took it because he was laughing inside, and thinking, "Crap, she is so right." And then he was thinking, "My turn is coming."

However, unfortunately in a marriage, both sides seem to pick on each other. When we were first married, I didn't realize how sarcastic my wife was. Sometime it would frustrate, and other times, I would laugh. I began to realize, I needed to wake up and realize she was joking with me. Now we joke back and forth, and when I or she has gone to far, we let each other know.

It's a common thing I've seen often in so many families. Men are now property of women. Just the other day at Target in Orem, a young couple was in line behind me and the tone of the wife's voice toward her husband made me sick.

Men are not women's properties, and women are not men's properties, unfortunately we see some people speak this way and exercise an unrighteous dominion.

I will say, you may have only seen one side of this story. Her tone in the store, verses his possible tone when they reached the car, and were inside the car.

Unfortunately, abuse goes both ways. What we need to focus on ourselves, is that we don't do it ourselves, and when we do we quickly recognize our fault and repent.

Edited by Anddenex
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Sisters, if a woman came on this site complaining that she felt put down and devalued by men, and even cited a specific example of a man talking badly about his wife while she sat meekly by and another example of a man excoriating his wife publicly while she apologized for her imaginary bad behavior, I am quite sure you would be much more supportive of her and less prone to criticizing her overgeneralizations and focus in on one particular part of her post that may have stepped a bit too far. I suspect this because I have seen it happen many times on this site.

I would be very unhappy if a female poster started a thread called, "Does Anyone Feel Like Women Are Abused in the Church?" and then they gave two examples of women who have been beaten by their husbands, followed by, "You men whose wives don't want to have sex with you - that's just a smokescreen. If you would stop beating them, they would want to have sex."

That would be an extremely unkind thing to say to men who have treated their wives well and are hurting because they are uninterested in sex for whatever reason.

I hate it when women talk down to their husbands, but I don't think this is something the majority of women do in the church.

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In my observation it is another attack on the family that occurs in society and has unfortunately invaded some aspects of the church as well. Men have been made out to be kind of useless stooges by the media (think Homer Simpson, Archie Bunker, Dan from Roseanne and any other number of tools given as representative of the male gender). These misconstrued notions that men are only sexually driven morons does also unfortunately surface in the church as well. The worst part is that as men we attack ourselves with ridicule. This last conference my stake had pizza before the priesthood session, which is fine, except that it was announced as though we required a bribe to come listen. When I was single I recall hearing countless stories of the need to man up and ask girls out... and I did ask lots of girls out, but more often than not it was the girls that only wanted to hang out and avoid any kind of committed relationship. Not that I am attempting to belittle girls or women in any way either, because the media and society have successfully helped women to belittle themselves into thinking that their greatest contribution to society, which is motherhood, is of little importance compared to career and power and looks and other frivolous pursuits when viewed with an eternal perspective.

Anyways my point is that YES I think men can tend to get a bum wrap in the church. However, I know that God operates by helping us to see what we can be and helping make our weaknesses strengths. Thus it is our own weaknesses as humans that lend themselves to us attacking each-other to feel better about ourselves, and it is our own vulnerabilities that blow these attacks out of proportion and leave us feeling victimized.

I don't know who the quote belongs to, but I've always enjoyed this saying, "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool."

I think there is a lot of truth in this saying, which means I have spent much of my life being a fool by taking offense. Try to remember whose opinion matters (Gods) and work to live in such a way that you are valuable to Him, and try to disregard the extra noise from the world, even the worldly noise that exists within the church.

Edited by SpiritDragon
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To the OP I say yes. I feel like men are "picked on" (I don't really like that phrase but moving on..) not just in the church but in our modern society in general. When did it become okay to put down our husbands in front of others? I see this all the time, not just by members, but by a lot of people I am around whether they are friends or not. My own mother did this and does this. It took me a while to realize that this is not okay. I admit that I kind of believed that acting arrogant and putting down my husband in a sarcastic way was normal and it was even encouraged and supported by....dum dum dum...MEN. The best advice someone gave me before my wedding day was, "never ever talk badly about your husband, either behind his back or in front of him." I am so glad I follow this advice now.

Sometimes we will hang out with other couples and we will observe how other wives put their husbands in their place--so to speak in a sarcastic tone and it is seen as cute and funny. I try my best to not follow the herd when we are in conversation. It is seen as a surprise by people when they try to get me to say something bossy and snarky to my husband and I say something uplifting instead. I will admit it's a little entertaining.

NOW...With ALL that being said women are "picked on" too. Men can be pushy, arrogant, and verbally and physically abusive as well..INSIDE and outside the church. This is a problem with our society and one of the reasons for so much relationship dysfunction in our world. I think it is a mistake to see this as a men vs. women thing...it is something we ALL need to work on. Can we agree that if everyone was more uplifting of their spouse than many many relationship issues would resolve?

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I don't know who the quote belongs to, but I've always enjoyed this saying, "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool."

Many people attribute this quote to Brigham Young when he in fact was quoting Confucius.

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