Time


JudoMinja
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I was reading an article H. Clay Gorton- "There Shall Be Time No Longer", and I found it very thought provoking. He speaks about time being something that is only measured in mortality and because God exists in eternity He can see the expanse of time (past, present, and future) all around Him and all is the present to Him. As we pass from the limitations of the mortal world into eternity, we will likewise surpass the veil and see even as He does- like a person only able to perceive in 2D suddenly having access to all the perception of a 3D world.

Something occured to me though, as I was reading, that Gorton didn't seem to cover. He spoke of the relativity of time and how time seems to fly by when we are engaged in an actvity that requires our fullest attention and brings us joy. Yet when we are suffering or in pain, the time seems to drag on and on because we are focusing on time that is outside our present- a past in which we felt no pain and/or a future in which the pain has gone. And this is where my thought came in:

Perhaps the reason time is immeasurable to God is because He is joy. Meaning- He is fully engaged in the entire work of creation and that work brings Him joy. He has no longing for anything past or future, because He has lost Himself in His work and is experiencing a fullness of joy. So- the closer we draw unto Him and engage in His work, the closer we draw to eternity and pull away from the bounds of time and mortality. Time does not exist when we have joy.

Thoughts?

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I'm sure that there are others that can speak to the concept much better than I can, however, time is an actual part of the universe. It plays a role in the general theory of relativity. A good introductory book is A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bryson, a bit more in-depth the article on A Brief History of Relativity by Hawking. Both are written for the non-scientist.

-RM

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Time, why you punish me? Like a wave crashing into the shore, you wash away my dreams. Time, why you walk away? Like a friend with somewhere to go, you left me crying. Can you teach me 'bout tomorrow, and all the pain and sorrow running free? 'Cause tomorrow's just another day, and I don't believe in time.

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I was reading an article H. Clay Gorton- "There Shall Be Time No Longer", and I found it very thought provoking. He speaks about time being something that is only measured in mortality and because God exists in eternity He can see the expanse of time (past, present, and future) all around Him and all is the present to Him. As we pass from the limitations of the mortal world into eternity, we will likewise surpass the veil and see even as He does- like a person only able to perceive in 2D suddenly having access to all the perception of a 3D world.

Something occured to me though, as I was reading, that Gorton didn't seem to cover. He spoke of the relativity of time and how time seems to fly by when we are engaged in an actvity that requires our fullest attention and brings us joy. Yet when we are suffering or in pain, the time seems to drag on and on because we are focusing on time that is outside our present- a past in which we felt no pain and/or a future in which the pain has gone. And this is where my thought came in:

Perhaps the reason time is immeasurable to God is because He is joy. Meaning- He is fully engaged in the entire work of creation and that work brings Him joy. He has no longing for anything past or future, because He has lost Himself in His work and is experiencing a fullness of joy. So- the closer we draw unto Him and engage in His work, the closer we draw to eternity and pull away from the bounds of time and mortality. Time does not exist when we have joy.

Thoughts?

God plans for the future better than anyone. So exact is His planning that He creates things spiritually first. A lack of longing goes against the admonition of Paul, "... we seek after these things." So, we are told to make our character opposite of God's?

Where in the world do you get the idea that time is immeasurable to God?

Where is it proven that time is bounding? If anything it is liberating and makes more glorious - it is God's work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. "Bringing to pass" requires the measurement of time and the passage of time which is at the heart of God's glory and work. If anything, time is a vital part of God not the lack of time. There is no "moment" without the passage of time. Moment has no meaning without time. The word "closer" has no meaning without the passage of time because you would have to compare two points in time to use the word "closer".

The idea of time not existing or the lack of passage of time etc is a man made idea, so it is impossible to really answer your question about a man made idea without it being a made up answer. This is not to say that God perceives the passage of time differently than we do; I can somewhat contemplate and understand that, but there still is passage of time.

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Time, why you punish me? Like a wave crashing into the shore, you wash away my dreams. Time, why you walk away? Like a friend with somewhere to go, you left me crying. Can you teach me 'bout tomorrow, and all the pain and sorrow running free? 'Cause tomorrow's just another day, and I don't believe in time.

Hootie!

-RM

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I also believe that all will be “present” with us as well. Time simply becomes a location we can explore. Every second of our lives will always exist.

It will be part of our continued growth to explore in depth the ripple of our decisions and actions, both good and bad, by returning to those moments and seeing the effects those choices had on ourselves and others and viewing it with unlimited and eternal perspective.

I believe this is related to mercy/justice and punishment and reward. This is one of the reasons I find the saviors teachings so poignant.

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I also believe that all will be “present” with us as well. Time simply becomes a location we can explore. Every second of our lives will always exist.

It will be part of our continued growth to explore in depth the ripple of our decisions and actions, both good and bad, by returning to those moments and seeing the effects those choices had on ourselves and others and viewing it with unlimited and eternal perspective.

I believe this is related to mercy/justice and punishment and reward. This is one of the reasons I find the saviors teachings so poignant and the atonement so important.

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God plans for the future better than anyone. So exact is His planning that He creates things spiritually first. A lack of longing goes against the admonition of Paul, "... we seek after these things." So, we are told to make our character opposite of God's?

Where in the world do you get the idea that time is immeasurable to God?

Where is it proven that time is bounding? If anything it is liberating and makes more glorious - it is God's work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. "Bringing to pass" requires the measurement of time and the passage of time which is at the heart of God's glory and work. If anything, time is a vital part of God not the lack of time. There is no "moment" without the passage of time. Moment has no meaning without time. The word "closer" has no meaning without the passage of time because you would have to compare two points in time to use the word "closer".

The idea of time not existing or the lack of passage of time etc is a man made idea, so it is impossible to really answer your question about a man made idea without it being a made up answer. This is not to say that God perceives the passage of time differently than we do; I can somewhat contemplate and understand that, but there still is passage of time.

SS- I think you'd enjoy reading the whole article. :) Gorton explains this far more eloquently than I ever could, and I believe your disagreement probably comes misunderstanding exactly what I was trying to describe. From what you're saying here I'm not exactly disagreeing with you- but feel like you are limiting your thinking to mortality.

Time does exist, but only as part of mortality. God exists outside time. When I said time is immesurable to God, I didn't mean that he can't and doesn't measure time, but that He exists in eternity which is time immeasurable. Or rather- the opposite of time.

Time is finite, and finite things are things of mortality. Eventually, all these things will be done away. "The seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer" (D&C 88:110) When Christ comes again, and we are in His presence and experiencing His joy of the millenial reign, time will be "no longer".

We follow the admonition of Paul now, during mortality, because here we do measure time. Here, there is still joy to be sought. But once we have obtained those things, there is no longer anything to seek. Time is not constant- it is relative, and to someone who exists outside time (in eternity) all things are but an instant. Our "afflictions [mortality] shall be but a small moment". (D&C 121:7)

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I like your thoughts JudoMinja!

I learned a great lesson about time from a Catholic Benedictine monk named John Main who practices and teaches contemplative prayer (Christian meditation). He said something to the effects of - The only time that God exists is right now. If we spend our days regretting mistakes of our past or worrying about our futures, instead of living with awareness in the present, than we are missing God. God is only present in the present and we can only get to know God, and be with God, when we are present in the present with him. It's a christian perspective of the Buddhist practice of mindfulness that has enhanced my experience with God.

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From a basic physics standpoint:

C-ship: The Dilation of Time

1) As one approaches the speed of light time slows asymptotically, and at the speed of light time stops.

2) God is Light

D&C 88 & 93

Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, volume 1, p. 92

Adam quickened by Spirit, Not by Blood.* Man became a living spirit clothed with a physical, flesh and bones body, but the body was not quickened by blood, but by spirit, for there was no blood in Adam's body before the fall.* He was not then "flesh" as we know it, that is in the sense of mortality.* In that state Adam could have remained in the Garden of Eden forever and all things that were created would have remained in that same condition forever.

3) If God is composed of light, then He does not experience time and is thus eternal.

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SS- I think you'd enjoy reading the whole article. :) Gorton explains this far more eloquently than I ever could, and I believe your disagreement probably comes misunderstanding exactly what I was trying to describe. From what you're saying here I'm not exactly disagreeing with you- but feel like you are limiting your thinking to mortality.

Time does exist, but only as part of mortality. God exists outside time. When I said time is immesurable to God, I didn't mean that he can't and doesn't measure time, but that He exists in eternity which is time immeasurable. Or rather- the opposite of time.

Time is finite, and finite things are things of mortality. Eventually, all these things will be done away. "The seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer" (D&C 88:110) When Christ comes again, and we are in His presence and experiencing His joy of the millenial reign, time will be "no longer".

We follow the admonition of Paul now, during mortality, because here we do measure time. Here, there is still joy to be sought. But once we have obtained those things, there is no longer anything to seek. Time is not constant- it is relative, and to someone who exists outside time (in eternity) all things are but an instant. Our "afflictions [mortality] shall be but a small moment". (D&C 121:7)

Thanks.

I think this kind of thing is about 50% of all our discussion on this forum is the confusion that occurs between the literal meaning of words and their more metaphoric meaning or symbolic meaning. I agree with what you said above. In fact, I like that symbolic meaning of the word time, meaning a period or an era that has a distinct beginning and end. The problem is that people apply that to the literal meaning of time, as in what is measured by a stopwatch. That doesn't mean that in heaven one can't use a stopwatch. Or that God is capable of traveling back in time. Those scriptures are not referring to that kind of "time", in my opinion.

Like the scripture in D&C 88, to me is just saying that once mortality is over there is no going back to it. As opposed to trying to place a literal meaning on the word "time" as if there is no passage of time like what is seen on a clock. Obviously, the word eternal is opposite of finite (using that definition of the word "time").

Dictionary definition of time; "1.the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.

2.duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration.

3.( sometimes initial capital letter ) a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time: mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time.

4.a limited period or interval, as between two successive events: a long time.

5.a particular period considered as distinct from other periods: Youth is the best time of life. "

I think people mix up the use of the word often between definition one and two without distinguishing one from the other. That is what the article you posted is doing. He is making no attempt to distinguish the two definitions.

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Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, volume 1, p. 92

Adam quickened by Spirit, Not by Blood.* Man became a living spirit clothed with a physical, flesh and bones body, but the body was not quickened by blood, but by spirit, for there was no blood in Adam's body before the fall.* He was not then "flesh" as we know it, that is in the sense of mortality.* In that state Adam could have remained in the Garden of Eden forever and all things that were created would have remained in that same condition forever.

**sorry**

Side note - hope not to detract from the topic but what you posted made me wonder; If he is making a distinction that the body is quickened by the spirit and not by blood, then that implies that a body could be quickened by blood and not the spirit, by blood alone, right? .... interesting. Otherwise, if both our body and the Garden of Eden body is quickened by the spirit, whats the difference?

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Dictionary definition of time; "1.the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.

2.duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration.

3.( sometimes initial capital letter ) a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time: mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time.

4.a limited period or interval, as between two successive events: a long time.

5.a particular period considered as distinct from other periods: Youth is the best time of life. "

Actually- I think Gorton was mostly referring to the first definition for time (which somewhat blends into the second definition) and pointing out that this system of measurement that we use is incomplete, because our ability to perceive the "present" is limited by mortality. While, for God, everything is the present. I don't really see it as a difference between a metaphoric time and a literal time, but rather an attempt to show that our understanding of time is incomplete and our efforts to measure it are faulty.

I agree that much of miscommunication in discussions comes from a difference in understanding the definitions of words. But I also don't think that we necessarily need to focus on separating the definitions. Instead, I think that there is just so much meaning contained within our words that it can be difficult to grasp, and- like our understanding of time- our understanding of so many other words and concepts is incomplete. As we continue to study and seek greater understanding, these words come to encompass more and more, taking on deeper and more insightful meanings and connotations than they did before.

I honestly wish I had had the opportunity to meet "gramps."

Me too. :) I've been enjoying reading his articles.

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**sorry**

Side note - hope not to detract from the topic but what you posted made me wonder; If he is making a distinction that the body is quickened by the spirit and not by blood, then that implies that a body could be quickened by blood and not the spirit, by blood alone, right? .... interesting. Otherwise, if both our body and the Garden of Eden body is quickened by the spirit, whats the difference?

Before the fall Adam's Body was quickened with spirit.

After the fall it was quickened with blood.

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To ME... Time is like a library full of books.

Each of the storylines is chronological, but I can flip to any page. Edit. Rewrite. Just read

So time exists, both I. The story, and in my reading... But they are 2 different variable sets. All times, continuously and concurrently. Every spirit, with its own book. Every story. Ever.

A library the size of a planet.

A library the size of a galaxy.

Eh. The space it takes up doesn't really matter

Nor the time it takes to read.

Not when one literally has all of time, and all things in all times.

Time and space only matter when traveling linearly.

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Actually- I think Gorton was mostly referring to the first definition for time (which somewhat blends into the second definition) and pointing out that this system of measurement that we use is incomplete, because our ability to perceive the "present" is limited by mortality. While, for God, everything is the present. I don't really see it as a difference between a metaphoric time and a literal time, but rather an attempt to show that our understanding of time is incomplete and our efforts to measure it are faulty.

I agree that much of miscommunication in discussions comes from a difference in understanding the definitions of words. But I also don't think that we necessarily need to focus on separating the definitions. Instead, I think that there is just so much meaning contained within our words that it can be difficult to grasp, and- like our understanding of time- our understanding of so many other words and concepts is incomplete. As we continue to study and seek greater understanding, these words come to encompass more and more, taking on deeper and more insightful meanings and connotations than they did before.

Me too. :) I've been enjoying reading his articles.

If this life is called "time", in other words, a period of time that is called "time" then everything outside of the so-called "time" is not "time". To clarify the meaning of that phrase because people would automatically mix up the name of this life "time" with the other definition, passage of time then replace the name "time" with 'probationary period'.

So, the phrase would be; this life is a 'probationary period', everything outside this life is not a 'probationary period'. That is all. The word "time" should not be interpreted as the definition of the passage of time in this sense. If I said that that phrase then means, this life there is passage of time and outside this life there is not passage of time, then that would be the wrong definition of the word "time" used. So, it has to be one or the other not both, like you suggest. Or at least, during the discussion the person should make an attempt to distinguish the two definitions. That is my complaint about Gorton's writing, there is no attempt to distinguish the two definitions and so it just adds to the misconceptions about the term "time".

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So, currently our body is not quickened by the spirit?

What influence does the spirit have over the body then?

I think the confusion is due to the word quickened. I believe that in the material I quoted the word quickened should have be sustained. Mortal bodies receive nutrition, oxygen, and remove waste via the blood. Immortal bodies use a different substance. I think of it as a fluid spirit light substance.

Note the difference between Flesh and Blood & Flesh and Bone.

The following link has good explanation of the idea that Immortals bodies do not have blood.

Improvement Era: A Mormon Blog | No Blood Before The Fall? Where’d THAT come from?

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I think the confusion is due to the word quickened. I believe that in the material I quoted the word quickened should have be sustained. Mortal bodies receive nutrition, oxygen, and remove waste via the blood. Immortal bodies use a different substance. I think of it as a fluid spirit light substance.

Note the difference between Flesh and Blood & Flesh and Bone.

The following link has good explanation of the idea that Immortals bodies do not have blood.

Improvement Era: A Mormon Blog | No Blood Before The Fall? Where’d THAT come from?

If you do a search on the article you linked, there is no reference to "quickened" so I am not sure how that clarifies that issue.

My question is pertaining to the fact that this body is quickened by blood, then theoretically it doesn't need a spirit to be alive, right?

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If you do a search on the article you linked, there is no reference to "quickened" so I am not sure how that clarifies that issue.

My question is pertaining to the fact that this body is quickened by blood, then theoretically it doesn't need a spirit to be alive, right?

I submit, your obstinance prevails.

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I submit, your obstinance prevails.

There is a difference between acceptance and understanding. .... the forum typically goes beyond blind acceptance. Like most things in the gospel description, "blood" is symbolic not literal. "Blood" by any other name is still blood, just like "flesh" by any other name is still "flesh" but the differences have to do with their symbolic meaning not the actual purpose of the substance.

Of course when the body is made perfect and eternal all the material used to make that change is different than the corruptible dust that is used for this body. We could say the "hair" is a spiritual hair or the "taste buds" are a eternal spiritual taste buds etc. If we just want to look at the surface meaning that there is no blood in the body and it is made of something on an eternal realm, fine ... that is true of all the substances of the body, not just blood. ... Then, our understanding stops there.

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My thought on this is the following.

There is a distinction when we make certain covenants in the temple between "time and all eternity". Time is in reference to our mortal lives, which is marked by the change and decay of our fallen state. That's what gives us the perception of time. It follows then that eternity is a state different than time, marked by the absence of the change and decay typical of mortality. However, obviously the many generations of time granted, that have come and gone in the worlds without number created by God, are all part of the whole of eternity as well... Excursions, albeit, but part of eternity nonetheless.

Reminds me of the second verse in "Abide With Me".

Swift to its close ebbs out life's little day;

earth's joys grow dim; its glories pass away;

change and decay in all around I see;

O thou who changest not, abide with me.

I'm grateful for the time God has given us to work out our salvation - to repent and prepare to return to His presence. Elder Christofferson's talk last year really struck home for me when he said:

"Perhaps as much as praying for mercy, we should pray for time and opportunity to work and strive and overcome." (The Divine Gift of Repentance - Liahona Nov. 2011 - liahona)

Regards,

Vanhin

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