Turning the other cheek, yeah right!


JosephP
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I really stink at turning the other check. Someone posted in one of the comments the other day a quote from Confucius "If you take offense when none is intended, you are a fool, if you take offense when offense is intended, you are a greater fool." That really got me thinking. My personal philosophy has always been "you cannot offend me unless you intend to, but if you intend to, I guarantee you will succeed!"

Okay I understand WHY turning the other check is so important, what is a complete mystery to me is HOW to turn the other check. Someone struck me a year ago and I punched them square and hard without the slightest awareness I was doing so. Often in a verbal argument if the other person becomes offensive I retort with withering hurtful words long before my brain engages.

I know I should pray about it, ask for help from the spirit, but part of me is resistive to that idea. It feels like I'm trying to become a doormat, allowing other to walk over me without responding in kind. Also I just can't see how I'm going to overcome the instinctive response to lash out before reason can moderate my actions.

Edited by JosephP
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I really stink at turning the other check. Someone posted in one of the comments the other day a quote from Confucius "If you take offense when none is intended you are a fool, if you take offense went offense is intended you are a greater fool."That really got me thinking. My personal philosophy has always been "you cannot offend me unless you intend to, and if you intend to, I guarantee you will succeed!"

Okay I understand WHY turning the other check is so important, what is a complete mystery to me is HOW to turn the other check. Someone struck me a year ago and I punched them square and hard without the slightest awareness I was doing so. Often in a verbal argument if the other person becomes offensive I retort with withering hurtful words long before my brain engages.

I know I should pray about it, ask for help from the spirit, but part of me is resistive to that idea. It feels like I'm trying to become a doormat, allowing other to walk over me without responding in kind. Also I just can't see how I'm going to overcome the instinctive response to lash out before reason can moderate my actions.

If we were Superman, turning the other cheek would be much easier. If we knew for a fact that no one could hurt us or make us look foolish (hey, if you're wearing a red cape over a blue catsuit with a big 'S' emblazoned on your chest and your red underwear on the outside, you don't really need anyone else to make you look foolish, do you?), it would be fairly easy to smile at other people's railings.

But, of course, we are not God. We are vulnerable. So other people's nastiness does hurt. This is our great challenge: Not to make ourselves invulnerable, but to forgive others when they do hurt us. I can't give you much direct instruction on the topic, because (1) I'm still struggling with it myself and (2) it's a matter of feeling my way, so descriptive words don't come easily.

I have to believe that our actions cause actual hurt to God, and that when he forgives us, he is not actually forgiving us from the position of an invulnerable Superman, but from the position of an aggrieved party. Many have tried to equate our sinning to driving nails into the Savior's palms. I reject any such simplistic quid pro quo, but I do suspect that on a much deeper level and in a way I do not understand, this ties in very intimately with the atonement.

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If we were Superman, turning the other cheek would be much easier. If we knew for a fact that no one could hurt us or make us look foolish (hey, if you're wearing a red cape over a blue catsuit with a big 'S' emblazoned on your chest and your red underwear on the outside, you don't really need anyone else to make you look foolish, do you?), it would be fairly easy to smile at other people's railings.

But, of course, we are not God. We are vulnerable. So other people's nastiness does hurt. This is our great challenge: Not to make ourselves invulnerable, but to forgive others when they do hurt us. I can't give you much direct instruction on the topic, because (1) I'm still struggling with it myself and (2) it's a matter of feeling my way, so descriptive words don't come easily.

I have to believe that our actions cause actual hurt to God, and that when he forgives us, he is not actually forgiving us from the position of an invulnerable Superman, but from the position of an aggrieved party. Many have tried to equate our sinning to driving nails into the Savior's palms. I reject any such simplistic quid pro quo, but I do suspect that on a much deeper level and in a way I do not understand, this ties in very intimately with the atonement.

Yeah, I really do think I get that, it's controlling the instinctive reaction I'm having a hard time with. I grew up in the ghettos of NYC and was physically and sexually abused as a child. When I became old enough to defend myself it stopped, and being able to react to abuse decisively has meant a lot to me. Now when I live in a much less dangerous environment, that survival skill doesn't serve me well. And it is not in keeping with gospel principles, or in having the Savior as my role model. It's just so deeply ingrained I wonder at successfully overcoming it.

Edited by JosephP
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What worked for me, is to remind myself that getting offended is the same thing as giving someone power over me. It looks like this:

"Boy, you must be pretty weak-willed if someone can get such a strong reaction out of you just by flapping their gums. Imagine that - you talk real big on agency but when the rubber hits the road, you just hand yours over without a second's thought to the first yayhoo with something dumb to say about you. I'd hate to find out what stupid thing you'd do if someone actually did something bad to you. Are you truly that afraid of actually thinking about what he's saying to see if there's some truth there? Do you really cower in that much terror at the thought of someone having a valid gripe with you, that you're going to turn it into some stupid grudge you can carry around?" Etc, etc.

(Keep in mind, this is what I say to myself. I'm not saying it to anyone here.)

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What worked for me, is to remind myself that getting offended is the same thing as giving someone power over me. It looks like this:

"Boy, you must be pretty weak-willed if someone can get such a strong reaction out of you just by flapping their gums. Imagine that - you talk real big on agency but when the rubber hits the road, you just hand yours over without a second's thought to the first yayhoo with something dumb to say about you. I'd hate to find out what stupid thing you'd do if someone actually did something bad to you. Are you truly that afraid of actually thinking about what he's saying to see if there's some truth there? Do you really cower in that much terror at the thought of someone having a valid gripe with you, that you're going to turn it into some stupid grudge you can carry around?" Etc, etc.

(Keep in mind, this is what I say to myself. I'm not saying it to anyone here.)

Yes, I recognize those words, they are not all that different from those I berate myself with after the fact. Now if I can just figure out how to get my brain started before putting my mouth in gear I'd be able to remind myself of that in time.

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I definitely do not think that if your true desire is to become someone that can let offenses roll of you like a duck in the water it will come overnight. If your personality doesnt quite match up with that sort of thinking or natural reaction, it will take some hard work.

I beleive that the perception of weakness for turning the other cheek, especially if you know it is intentional, could be a first step if accepts that it is not weakness.

Edited by EarlJibbs
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I like this verse in connection to "turn the other cheek."

Alma 48: 15

And this was their afaith, that by so doing God would bprosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

I believe to turn the other cheek would be similar to this verse, that there are times when turning the other cheek isn't appropriate, whereas, there are times when turning the other cheek is. In other words, there is a time he warns (turn the other cheek), and there is a time he says prepare (slap back, and slap hard).

I once read a different interpretation of turn the other cheek, which mentioned how the tradition back then during the Lord's time was not as we would interpret it today.

It specified that a person, with higher standing than you, could only slap you a specific way. If he slapped you another way, it meant he saw you as his equal with equal standing.

Thus, when the Romans slapped them, if they turned the other cheek, they would be required to slap them in a manner that said they were equals. Seeing the Romans didn't see the Jews as equals, they then would not be able to slap them unless they considered them as equals.

Very interesting.

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Growing up, I used to get picked on at school. If I came home and told my dad about it, this is a basic outline for what our conversation would be like:

Me: So-and-so said I was stupid.

Dad: Are you stupid?

Me: No.

Dad: Then why are you upset?

or

Me: So-and-so said I was a "goody-two-shoes".

Dad: Are you a "goody-two-shoes"?

Me: Well, I guess, but they make it sound like it's a bad thing.

Dad: Is it a bad thing?

Me: No.

Dad: Then why are you upset?

Essentially- the point my dad drove home with me was that the truth matters more than others perceptions. There are more complicated examples, but these simple ones bring out the main focus very easily. If someone thinks you are a theif, or a horrible person, etc when in truth you are not, there is no need to react adversely. Getting upset makes the assumption appear to be true.

There is no need to defend yourself, if you've done nothing to warrant a defense. Let others think what they will, and move on. Let your calm and simple statements of the truth speak for themselves. Those who matter will know the kind of person you are and will support you. And those who are just "flapping-their-gums" will eventually leave you alone when they realize they can't get a rise out of you.

Edited by JudoMinja
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Maybe you can look into some anger management techniques. Not that you necessarily have an anger issue, but anger is a prime example of an instinctive reaction that people have a hard time controlling with it turning 'on' before they can approach the situation more rationally. Some of the techniques and thought processes may be applicable.

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My .02... Because I can...

For those who have difficulty turning the other cheek, please look inward and see if your real issue is control issues. I know that I have had a hard time turning the other cheek and because of that, I physically and emotionally hurt people. As soon as I integrated the Serenity Prayer, turning the other cheek became much easier. If someone says something, well, such it is. Its not like I have control over what comes out of their mouth anyhow. The only control I have are two fold:

1) how reactive I am.

2) how proactive I am.

That's it.

Because in my experience, those who are feeling out of control are the ones with the shortest fuse. Those who feel to smack someone down because of some misspoken word are only seeking to control something because they feel have little control over their own life to the point of anxiety. Those who are accepting and roll with the punches understand that they have little control over anything other than themselves.

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I definitely do not think that if your true desire is to become someone that can let offenses roll of you like a duck in the water it will come overnight. If your personality doesnt quite match up with that sort of thinking or natural reaction, it will take some hard work.

I beleive that the perception of weakness for turning the other cheek, especially if you know it is intentional, could be a first step if accepts that it is not weakness.

Thanks for your reply. While most of the replies have been excellent answers as to why turning the other cheek is so very important, it hasn't really helped with my question of how to control the involuntary initial negative response I so often encounter.

Coming from my very violent background I did seek anger counseling early in life, most of it by choice, some court ordered. When I can get my brain engaged I have little trouble seeing the Savior's example and sincerely try to emulate it. It's the knee jerk reaction I'm trying to control. When I punched the person who struck me in anger there was no decision, no thought process. Like pulling your hand away from a hot stove I just instinctively struck back. That's the impulse I'm trying to control.

I honestly believe that I'm not having a problem with forgiveness or self control, its impulse control that's an issue. I was told in counseling years ago that reacting calmly would become second nature over time and I wouldn't respond impulsively. They owe me a refund, cause it just ain't happening.

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I definitely do not think that if your true desire is to become someone that can let offenses roll of you like a duck in the water it will come overnight. If your personality doesnt quite match up with that sort of thinking or natural reaction, it will take some hard work.

I beleive that the perception of weakness for turning the other cheek, especially if you know it is intentional, could be a first step if accepts that it is not weakness.

It has been hard work for almost four decades. Perhaps there is still the underlying doubt, the unwillingness to become a target for abuse again. I don't know.

I can't afford or desire to get more counseling. I think I've talked this to death. I think it may simply be a scar I will carry all my life. It's seldom an issue in my day to day life, few people are abusive to me. But when it comes up I'm always so disappointed in myself for "losing it" again.

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Thanks for your reply. While most of the replies have been excellent answers as to why turning the other cheek is so very important, it hasn't really helped with my question of how to control the involuntary initial negative response I so often encounter.

Coming from my very violent background I did seek anger counseling early in life, most of it by choice, some court ordered. When I can get my brain engaged I have little trouble seeing the Savior's example and sincerely try to emulate it. It's the knee jerk reaction I'm trying to control. When I punched the person who struck me in anger there was no decision, no thought process. Like pulling your hand away from a hot stove I just instinctively struck back. That's the impulse I'm trying to control.

I honestly believe that I'm not having a problem with forgiveness or self control, its impulse control that's an issue. I was told in counseling years ago that reacting calmly would become second nature over time and I wouldn't respond impulsively. They owe me a refund, cause it just ain't happening.

It has been hard work for almost four decades. Perhaps there is still the underlying doubt, the unwillingness to become a target for abuse again. I don't know.

I can't afford or desire to get more counseling. I think I've talked this to death. I think it may simply be a scar I will carry all my life. It's seldom an issue in my day to day life, few people are abusive to me. But when it comes up I'm always so disappointed in myself for "losing it" again.

I don't think what you are describing here is difficulty turning the other cheek. It is exactly what you said- impulse control. And that can be very hard to rewire once it's been ingrained in you. Especially when it's a defense mechanism in response to abuse.

Towards the end of my relationship with my ex, the slightest raised tone in his voice would trigger my own impulse defensives. Of course, this just escalated issues, because me reacting defensively caused him to in-turn react with anger, which raised my defense, and back and forth until things quickly got very ugly.

When I left, those impulse reactions would crop up when situations reminded me of the stress I'd been through with him. I had to relearn how to interact with people, and it wouldn't have worked if they hadn't been patient and understanding with me. I specifically remember one instance with my mother, when she became stressed and upset and something I'd done had been the last straw that set her off. In the past, I would have been able to let it roll off my back, but because of my heightened impulse defenses, I didn't react very well at all.

We yelled at each other, and she got "in my face" confrontational, but then we broke it off so that we could both cool down. That experience ended up being very helpful in my recovery, because I knew from growing up that my mother would never hurt me. Yeah, she might lose her temper occassionally and yell over silly things when she gets overly stressed, but she is all-around a good, safe person. I didn't have to be defensive with her. Once I'd cried it out and disassociated the triggers from my actual problem, I was able to handle it better.

The thing is- our minds have a tendancy to generalize things and our emotions will get tied to those generalizations. I had tied "raised tone" and "angry over something I'd done" into a following consequence of- "I get hurt". So, I was scared. And because I was scared, I tried to defend myself. But I didn't need to. I had to separate the cause and effect. The real cause behind "I get hurt" was my ex. Not the argument. Make sense?

Since it sounds like your history of abuse is far more extensive than mine was, it's going to be harder and take more time for you to rewire your defenses. You need to figure out how to separate the true dangers from the generic things that don't require a defensive reaction. It's like if you've been in a car accident and lets say that car accident involved a red pickup-truck. Then, whenever you see a red pickup-truck you feel yourself tense up expecting a collision. You need to rewire your brain to realize that not all red pickup-trucks equal car accident, so there's no need to react defensively when you see one.

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Actually, the Confucius quote is not about turning the other cheek.

"He who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool." is a statement about how giving somebody else the power to goad you into a negative reaction is more foolish than having a negative reaction when nobody is goading you to it.

So, it fits in with your case of having that uncontrollable impulse, not because you should be able to turn the other cheek, but because you are giving somebody else the power to make you do bad things.

I don't really know how you can control that impulse. But, maybe, if you can just recognize that when you respond to the offense by punching the guy's nose you just gave the other guy the power to control you, then maybe you'll break the habit.

Just my 2 cents.

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I don't think what you are describing here is difficulty turning the other cheek. It is exactly what you said- impulse control. And that can be very hard to rewire once it's been ingrained in you. Especially when it's a defense mechanism in response to abuse.

Towards the end of my relationship with my ex, the slightest raised tone in his voice would trigger my own impulse defensives. Of course, this just escalated issues, because me reacting defensively caused him to in-turn react with anger, which raised my defense, and back and forth until things quickly got very ugly.

When I left, those impulse reactions would crop up when situations reminded me of the stress I'd been through with him. I had to relearn how to interact with people, and it wouldn't have worked if they hadn't been patient and understanding with me. I specifically remember one instance with my mother, when she became stressed and upset and something I'd done had been the last straw that set her off. In the past, I would have been able to let it roll off my back, but because of my heightened impulse defenses, I didn't react very well at all.

We yelled at each other, and she got "in my face" confrontational, but then we broke it off so that we could both cool down. That experience ended up being very helpful in my recovery, because I knew from growing up that my mother would never hurt me. Yeah, she might lose her temper occassionally and yell over silly things when she gets overly stressed, but she is all-around a good, safe person. I didn't have to be defensive with her. Once I'd cried it out and disassociated the triggers from my actual problem, I was able to handle it better.

The thing is- our minds have a tendancy to generalize things and our emotions will get tied to those generalizations. I had tied "raised tone" and "angry over something I'd done" into a following consequence of- "I get hurt". So, I was scared. And because I was scared, I tried to defend myself. But I didn't need to. I had to separate the cause and effect. The real cause behind "I get hurt" was my ex. Not the argument. Make sense?

Since it sounds like your history of abuse is far more extensive than mine was, it's going to be harder and take more time for you to rewire your defenses. You need to figure out how to separate the true dangers from the generic things that don't require a defensive reaction. It's like if you've been in a car accident and lets say that car accident involved a red pickup-truck. Then, whenever you see a red pickup-truck you feel yourself tense up expecting a collision. You need to rewire your brain to realize that not all red pickup-trucks equal car accident, so there's no need to react defensively when you see one.

Your response has given me a lot to think about. I want to thank you for it. Don't let the brevity of my response mislead you to the importance I've placed on it. I'm just taking some time to really assimilate it fully.

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I haven't found that. No reprisal actions, certainly, but nothing against self defence.

I've never experienced it personally either, but I was remembering that Ghandi credited the Christian concept of turning the other cheek as the basis for his non violent/non cooperation campaign for Indian independence. They took many attacks without striking back and won their freedom through it. I know that's a simplistic retelling, but I think you get the idea.

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Your response has given me a lot to think about. I want to thank you for it. Don't let the brevity of my response mislead you to the importance I've placed on it. I'm just taking some time to really assimilate it fully.

I understand. :) Just some more thoughts on it:

Our instincts and impulses are part of our biology designed to protect us from harm. When we go through a traumatic experience, our brains try to compensate for the fact that we failed to protect ourselves and anything we associate with that experience becomes a trigger for our fight-or-flight response.

To gain better control over those instincts, you need to analyze the experiences where you feel you overreacted to something and figure out what exactly triggered your response. Of course, knowing what your triggers are doesn't make them go away- but it does help you to think ahead, knowing what has the potential to set you off, so that over time you can rewire your brain to separate those triggers from the anticipated result of harm.

It is going to require practice. If you've haven't studied self-defense or a form of martial arts, I'd suggest it, because they heavily emphasize the need for practice so that your instinctive reaction to danger is an efficient one that will truly protect you from harm. What you practice becomes part of your muscle-memory, so that you can react the way you've practiced without even thinking about it.

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Guest SquidMom

I am a woman. I worked at a min. security prison for 2 yrs. You can probably imagine the kinds of verbal abuse I dealt with everyday.... At first I reacted, trying to show that I would defend myself and not tolerate it. However, in that particular environment, where often I didn't have a clue who exactly said what, any threats of disciplinary action against them were never taken seriously. Eventually I just ignored it. (If it was direct & I kew who it was, of course, they wee in BIG trouble) When they realized they were not getting the rise out of me that they wanted, it eventually lessened, and they actually respected the fact that I held myself above being bothered by such infantile nonsense.

I have a VERY short fuse. Knowing this, I usually have to hold my tongue, literally pressing my lips together as hard as I can and just breathing for a few seconds while considering my response options. It helps to take just a few seconds to let your head cool down.

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I really stink at turning the other check. Someone posted in one of the comments the other day a quote from Confucius "If you take offense when none is intended, you are a fool, if you take offense when offense is intended, you are a greater fool." That really got me thinking. My personal philosophy has always been "you cannot offend me unless you intend to, but if you intend to, I guarantee you will succeed!"

Okay I understand WHY turning the other check is so important, what is a complete mystery to me is HOW to turn the other check. Someone struck me a year ago and I punched them square and hard without the slightest awareness I was doing so. Often in a verbal argument if the other person becomes offensive I retort with withering hurtful words long before my brain engages.

I know I should pray about it, ask for help from the spirit, but part of me is resistive to that idea. It feels like I'm trying to become a doormat, allowing other to walk over me without responding in kind. Also I just can't see how I'm going to overcome the instinctive response to lash out before reason can moderate my actions.

throw me in as well.
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