Good people and bad people

[Marlin1]

I am of the belief that there are no good or bad people, only people who do good and bad things.

What are your thoughts?

The scriptures can't seem to make up their mind on the matter.

Christ taught that there are none good but God. We are also taught that this life is a probationary period, and thus judgment of good or bad should be reserved for God at final judgement.

Yet, in Luke 6:45 Christ teaches - "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil..."

Acts 11 - "For he was a good man..." referring to Barnabas.

There are endless contradictions (seeming contradictions) on the matter.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Marlin1

[BadWolf]

Nope!!!

In my own life I've met

- Good People

- Good People who do bad things

- Bad People

- Bad People who do good things

- People who do the right thing for the wrong reasons (either G/B people)

- People who do the wrong thing for the right reasons (either G/B people)

- People in transition (from any of the above to another)

- Dangerous Good People

- Dangerous Bad People

- Damaged People

- People who are completely good/honorable under their own cultures morals... Which just happen to be different from mine

- Those under the protection of god (innocent... Aka incapable of knowing right from wrong. I'm not talking sociopaths and psychopaths, but like low functioning autism, some HFA, downs, etc.)

Edited October 28, 2012 by BadWolf
Fat fingers

[NeuroTypical]

I am of the belief that there are no good or bad people, only people who do good and bad things.

What are your thoughts?

I think you should go talk to a corrections officer. Maybe walk a mile in their shoes. You might end up with the same opinion you have now, but you'll be much wiser about the issue.

[Marlin1]

Badwolf...ironic!

you know these people to be good and bad because your judgement and perspective is infallible?

What happened to probation?

None good but God?

Edited October 29, 2012 by Marlin1

[mikbone]

Moses 5:24

For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Apparently Cain was a bad apple prior to Earth life.

[Marlin1]

I think you should go talk to a corrections officer. Maybe walk a mile in their shoes. You might end up with the same opinion you have now, but you'll be much wiser about the issue.

I've actually worked personally with at risk youth in residential treatment. You know, those kids who most people consider to be "bad" kids - gangsters, sexually active, abusive, manipulative, vulgar, in and out of correction facilities, etc. If you only knew the heart of these kids and their histories you might reconsider and become wiser about the issue yourself.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Marlin1

[Marlin1]

Moses 5:24

For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Apparently Cain was a bad apple prior to Earth life.

He was perdition before the world? Don't think so, he wouldn't have made it here.

I was before the world too.

Verse 25 - "a cursing I will put upon thee, except thou repent." God still had hope in him...saw his potential. The problem is, Cain didn't see his own potential. Probably because he had the false belief that he was "bad".

Edited October 29, 2012 by Marlin1

[pam]

I'd like to think I'm a good person and not just a person who might do some good things.

[skippy740]

[mikbone]

He was perdition before the world? Don't think so, he wouldn't have made it here.

I was before the world too.

Verse 25 - "a cursing I will put upon thee, except thou repent." God still had hope in him...saw his potential. The problem is, Cain didn't see his own potential. Probably because he had the false belief that we was "bad".

Verse 24 is the voice of God. Verse 25 seems to be hearsay 'it shall be said in time to come'.

You commented that the scriptures cannot make up its mind.

Moses 5:24 is definitive in my opinion. Cain was perdition (a bad person - IMHO). Somehow he managed to meet the requirements that allowed entrance into mortality.

Edited October 29, 2012 by mikbone

[Marlin1]

I'd like to think I'm a good person and not just a person who might do some good things.

Me too! I think most of us would. But, we cannot deem ourselves good, even Christ refused to do so. Only God can deem us good or bad, after we have fully proven ourselves in probation.

There is danger in believing that we are good or bad - The good don't need grace, the bad don't wan't it.

[Anddenex]

I am of the belief that there are no good or bad people, only people who do good and bad things.

What are your thoughts?

The scriptures can't seem to make up their mind on the matter.

Christ taught that there are none good but God. We are also taught that this life is a probationary period, and thus judgment of good or bad should be reserved for God at final judgement.

Yet, in Luke 6:45 Christ teaches - "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil..."

Acts 11 - "For he was a good man..." referring to Barnabas.

There are endless contradictions (seeming contradictions) on the matter.

In connect with your statement and comment, I find it interesting the words the Brother of Jared said right before he saw the Lord's finger:

2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our dnatures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires. (emphasis added)

Thus we have in scripture what appears to be a contradiction. With regard to your first verse where The Lord responded to a man who called him good saying there are not any good save it be my Father in Heaven. In relation to this verse when The Lord visited the Nephite, he said both he and the father were good.

In emphasis to this verse, it can be simply seen as The Lord is avoiding pride or vanity, because we both know that The Lord was "good" in this life. By avoiding pride and vanity he remained perfect.

In scripture, we are beings with the capacity both to choose acts of good and acts of evil, as you have suggested.

However, although like the Brother of Jared said we are evil continually, through the atonement of Jesus Christ I am perfect, even in this life. This perfection through Christ, allows a person to be considered "good".

As we continue in faithfulness, as others, The Lord then calls us good. If The Lord declares a person to be good, then that person is good. If men declares a man is good, than that may be the case or it may not be the case.

A person, that is more good than evil, I would personally consider good. Those who choose evil more than good, I surely would consider to be good.

It appears within scripture a pendelum swings between good and evil. When a nation has ripened in iniquity, or have nearly become purely evil, The Lord has wiped them out. When a person or a nation has ripened in keeping the commandments he has taken them up to himself.

In light of BadWolf's response, I would agree with her, and it doesn't take an infallible man to make a judgement call about a person being evil or good.

President Monson is a good man, the same good that is used in scriture, because he brings forth good fruit.

Ted Bundy on the other hand was a purely evil man who murdered tons of women.

It doesn't take a genious to distinguish between these two types of indivdiuals and to consider one good and the other evil.

[Marlin1]

Verse 24 is the voice of God. Verse 25 seems to be hearsay 'it shall be said in time to come'.

You commented that the scriptures cannot make up its mind.

Moses 5:24 is definitive in my opinion. Cain was perdition (a bad person - IMHO). Somehow he managed to meet the requirements that allowed entrance into mortality.

It shall be said in time to come...if you don't repent. He clearly gave him the option. Cain chose not to repent making him an exception, along with those whose callings and elections are made sure. Their judgment came a little early.

[NeuroTypical]

If you only knew the heart of these kids and their histories you might reconsider and become wiser about the issue yourself.

Reconsider what? Wiser than what?

I didn't realize I had cast an opinion one way or the other on the issue. I just suggested a path you could take to gain insights - and it turns out you've already walked a bunch of it.

[Marlin1]

It doesn't take a genious to distinguish between these two types of indivdiuals and to consider one good and the other evil.

It may not take a genius, but it does take a God. You cannot take into account a persons entirety of thoughts, words, actions, and motivations, weigh them in the balance thereby determining if they are good or bad! The level of sanity comes into play, the history of abuse and trauma comes into play, the degree to which the law was given comes into play, the degree to which it was understood, the mental capacity. The variables are endless and cannot be undertaken by anyone less than God.

Christ did not consider himself good at the time, because he had not yet fulfilled all righteousness. His probation was not yet complete. After he fulfilled all righteousness he did indeed call himself good, because God deemed him good. Pres. Monson does good (not all), Ted Bundy did bad (not all).

Edited October 29, 2012 by Marlin1

[MsMagnolia]

Since we are all children of a loving Heavenly Father he gives us the opportunity to choose for ourselves. I think sometimes we let our choices define us as good or bad. I tell my students constantly that to choose good when someone is watching is a good thing but to choose to do the right thing when no one is watching shows true character.

I do not like to call any of my 700 students good or bad. Their choices are either good or bad. I have witnessed the self fulfilling prophecy of a child constantly called bad. It is a sad thing when a 5 year old believes that all they are is the sum total of their choices. On the flip side... It will be our choices and our choices alone that will be brought to our remembrance at the final judgement. That is why we needed a savior. We literally cannot be saved without him. I am eternally grateful for the amazing plan of salvation and an older brother who stands ready and willing to be my mediator.

Just my thoughts,

Mags

[pam]

The good don't need grace, the bad don't wan't it.

And then some don't want apostrophes where not needed either.

Sorry I couldn't resist. Must be the bad in me.

[Marlin1]

And then some don't want apostrophes where not needed either.

Sorry I couldn't resist. Must be the bad in me.

Ha, ha, my bad! Pun intended.

[pam]

Ha, ha, my bad! Pun intended.

[BadWolf]

Badwolf...ironic!

you know these people to be good and bad because your judgement and perspective is infallible?

What happened to probation?

None good but God?

Bwaaaahahaha!

Of COURSE I'm using my judgement. Thank goodness for it. And doubly so for prompting a from the spirit.

I do, however, totally reject the premise that in order to exercise my judgement it would have to be infallible. That's some of the most convoluted logic I've ever come across. A stiltifying premise, at that, that leads to total absolving of responsibility, and an ego my neck could never support... That my judgement could somehow 'define' a person for their entire lives. You never specified the condition that people have to remain static in your Q (or I would have told you that you were being ridiculous).

INSTEAD, I have you real people I have actually known, in my own life. I'm sure there are other types & kinds of people, but those were examples I have personally come across

I get, now, that you're rabidly biased by working with plastic minds (psych concept plastic / malleable) of children... Literally in one of the types I listed (TRANSITION).

But that doesn't mean that people in transition &/or the innocent, &/or culturally different are the ONLY people who exist in this world.

I could use a thousand examples... But I'll use one:

I was tortured for 3 months. My torturers included those who were merely doi g their job, those who enjoyed inflicting pain or having power over me or both, those who were mentally deranged (some who enjoyed it, some who were totally unable to connect / I wasn't realto them), some who were basically good people (didn't stop them). During that time period, I was also privileged to be able to watch first hand as people transitioned (or not).

I've been around the block a few times. I e known a lot of different TYPES of people. And yes. I sort them out in my own mind and my own heart, as I care to. I'm often wrong about people (not that often, I'm a pretty good judge of character in general). BUT that does not nullify when I'm dead on about people.

And for the record, good v bad is ENTIRELY subjective.

[JudoMinja]

The problem with us deciding whether or not a person is good or bad is we are often quick to make judgment calls based on our personal perceptions, and those perceptions are always limited and incomplete in some way or another. This is why the Lord said: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." (D&C 64:10)

I think that there are good people and bad people, but most of the bad we see comes from misled people. The number of truly bad people in the world is, I think, very very small. Most people who do bad things do so thinking that they are making a good decision or that their good intentions will make things right. Therefore, they are misled, and this is why the opportunity to repent, change, and redirect themselves remains open. A truly bad person intentionally does evil and will have absolutely no desire to repent. I'm sure there are people out there like this, but I have yet to meet any. Mostly, I've met quite a large amount of misled people.

[Marlin1]

Bwaaaahahaha!

Of COURSE I'm using my judgement. Thank goodness for it. And doubly so for prompting a from the spirit.

I do, however, totally reject the premise that in order to exercise my judgement it would have to be infallible. That's some of the most convoluted logic I've ever come across. A stiltifying premise, at that, that leads to total absolving of responsibility, and an ego my neck could never support... That my judgement could somehow 'define' a person for their entire lives. You never specified the condition that people have to remain static in your Q (or I would have told you that you were being ridiculous).

INSTEAD, I have you real people I have actually known, in my own life. I'm sure there are other types & kinds of people, but those were examples I have personally come across

I get, now, that you're rabidly biased by working with plastic minds (psych concept plastic / malleable) of children... Literally in one of the types I listed (TRANSITION).

But that doesn't mean that people in transition &/or the innocent, &/or culturally different are the ONLY people who exist in this world.

I could use a thousand examples... But I'll use one:

I was tortured for 3 months. My torturers included those who were merely doi g their job, those who enjoyed inflicting pain or having power over me or both, those who were mentally deranged (some who enjoyed it, some who were totally unable to connect / I wasn't realto them), some who were basically good people (didn't stop them). During that time period, I was also privileged to be able to watch first hand as people transitioned (or not).

I've been around the block a few times. I e known a lot of different TYPES of people. And yes. I sort them out in my own mind and my own heart, as I care to. I'm often wrong about people (not that often, I'm a pretty good judge of character in general). BUT that does not nullify when I'm dead on about people.

And for the record, good v bad is ENTIRELY subjective.

Good luck to you and your judgment.

If good and bad are subjective (when it comes to judging others), how could you ever be wrong? No wonder you think you are a good judge of character. If they are subjective, the only opinion that matters is God's.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Marlin1

[Marlin1]

Since we are all children of a loving Heavenly Father he gives us the opportunity to choose for ourselves. I think sometimes we let our choices define us as good or bad. I tell my students constantly that to choose good when someone is watching is a good thing but to choose to do the right thing when no one is watching shows true character.

I do not like to call any of my 700 students good or bad. Their choices are either good or bad. I have witnessed the self fulfilling prophecy of a child constantly called bad. It is a sad thing when a 5 year old believes that all they are is the sum total of their choices. On the flip side... It will be our choices and our choices alone that will be brought to our remembrance at the final judgement. That is why we needed a savior. We literally cannot be saved without him. I am eternally grateful for the amazing plan of salvation and an older brother who stands ready and willing to be my mediator.

Just my thoughts,

Mags

Amen, thanks for your thoughts!

[BadWolf]

Good luck to you and your judgment.

If good and bad are subjective (when it comes to judging others), how could you ever be wrong? No wonder you think you are a good judge of character. If they are subjective, the only opinion that matters is God's.

I'm trying to figure out if you're being deliberately obtuse.

Sure. Once we've gone and snuffed it, the only opinion that matters is Gods.

Until then, in no small part to avoid pushing up the daisies, we all exercise our judgement hundreds of times a day.

And SOME of us build relationships with people based off of our judgement of their character. Or avoid having certain people in our lives (even if its just 10 seconds, by choosing to avoid someone we judge to be dangerous.

Judgement is not a bad thing. It's a continuously evolving (well for most) based off of our experiences and acquisition of knowledge.

It's all very well to sit back and say "Only god can judge", right up until you climb out of bed and go out into the world. At that point, its incumbent on each of us to use our brains to the best of our ability.

[Anddenex]

It may not take a genius, but it does take a God. You cannot take into account a persons entirety of thoughts, words, actions, and motivations, weigh them in the balance thereby determining if they are good or bad!

One does not need to know a person's whole history to know that a person is good or bad. As said previously, it doesn't take a genius or and infallible mind to recognize someone who is good, and someone who is bad. Our actions define us.

Christ did not consider himself good at the time, because he had not yet fulfilled all righteousness. His probation was not yet complete. After he fulfilled all righteousness he did indeed call himself good, because God deemed him good. Pres. Monson does good (not all), Ted Bundy did bad (not all).

Are you sure this is the reason Christ did not consider himself good? A person's probation doesn't need to be complete in order to be considered good.

No person, no intelligent person, would call the Lord evil, even in this life. He was perfect. Thus he was good.

I am not even sure how you are justifying Ted Bundy evil (not all), and then in the same sentence President Monson good (not all).

It is really simple matter. Ted Bundy, evil, it doesn't matter what little good he accomplished. President Monson, good, and what little evil he has done is covered through the atonement.

If the fruits of a person is good, we have the ability to judge, and say they are good. In some cases, we say the act was good, but it doesn't negate a person is good, or a person is evil.