Good people and bad people


Marlin1
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By your reasoning we can conclude than that we all are evil, as we all must be cleansed from sin in order to obtain glory. So, if you wan't to be technical, you would be incorrect to call anyone good except that they are sinless. Sounds pretty gloomy to me.

Again, this is non sequitur. That some sinful people might be evil does not therefore imply that all sinful people are evil. Being in a state of sin does not necessarily equate to being "evil".

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Again, this is non sequitur. That some sinful people might be evil does not therefore imply that all sinful people are evil. Being in a state of sin does not necessarily equate to being "evil".

I don't think that everybody really knows that word as you claim. Either way, you might want to check your own logic. That some people might be evil doesn't imply that they are evil?

I agree with your second point. Being in a state of sin does not equate to being evil.

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I have a very simplistic thought when it comes to labeling.

When I was very young, a person did the unthinkable to me -- as I grew up my thoughts told me that I was the bad person because in my youthful thinking and fear of telling anyone what had happened to me I labeled myself 'bad'. I thought then that only bad things happen to bad people.

It didn't even occur to me to label the person who had harmed me as 'bad'.

This kind of thinking was so harmful in my development. Because of my labeling myself as 'bad' I made some horrible choices in my life. When things became so bad in my life and I had to seek professional counseling, the counselor said to me with such unbelief in his voice, "You don't just think that your a bad person, but evil." Yes, I did.

My conversion process healed my thinking and gave me the wonderful opportunity of forgiving those who had so harmed me. That's why I don't like to label anyone as 'bad'. I wasn't a 'bad' person. Who knows what kind of life someone else has had that has led them to do bad things or be harmful towards someone else. Only God knows.:)

That is precisely what John Bradshaw calls toxic shame in his book "Healing the Shame that Binds you." It is the belief not that you made a mistake, but that you are a mistake. Not that you did bad or had bad done to you, but that you are bad. It is one of Satan's greatest tools.

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Again, this is non sequitur. That some sinful people might be evil does not therefore imply that all sinful people are evil. Being in a state of sin does not necessarily equate to being "evil".

All sin is evil Vort, where exactly is the line between a good man and a bad man? How can a man be good while committing evil or evil while committing good?

Edited by Marlin1
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All sin is evil Vort, where exactly is the line between a good man and a bad man? How can a man be good while committing evil or evil while committing good?

I don't know. But the fact that Vort (or Marlin1, or anyone else) doesn't know the precise location of the demarcation between a good man and a bad man does not mean that the demarcation doesn't exist.

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I don't know. But the fact that Vort (or Marlin1, or anyone else) doesn't know the precise location of the demarcation between a good man and a bad man does not mean that the demarcation doesn't exist.

Fair enough, can you answer the second part now because it justifies my response that you called non-blah blah blah. Again, how can a man be good while committing evil or evil while committing good?

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Fair enough, can you answer the second part now because it justifies my response that you called non-blah blah blah. Again, how can a man be good while committing evil or evil while committing good?

A man who is "bad" would be a man who actively seeks to implement means to achieve his selfish ends, irregardless of whether those means are good or evil. Thus, an evil man might intentionally implement either good or evil means; you could not tell merely by looking at the means.

A man who is "good" would be a man who actively seeks to implement good means to achieve a good end. Such a man could still use an evil means by accident, or perhaps by giving into temptation and rationalizing it, while still remaining a fundamentally honest and decent ("good") man.

Secondly, you are right we don't know and can't know the demarcation. So to label someone as good or bad is absurd.

I never said what you suggested. I do not believe that we don't and can't know that line of demarcation. I think that we often can know it. I was simply arguing that, even if we don't know it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that someone else besides us can't know it.

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We are not in a state of bad or good, we are in a state of probation.

Probation is a test of character. To place titles of "good" or "bad" is premature.

This is also where we would disagree. Let me clarify, we definitely are within a state of probation. To place titles on people as "good" or "bad" I would disagree that it is premature.

The savior through His atonement, made this probationary state possible. Without it, justice would lay claim on us, and truly, we could rightfully call ourselves "bad" in that case. Christ's atonement changed our state from "bad" to "lost" from "conviction" to "probation," and from "damned" to "preparatory." To judge ourselves or others is to neglect the purpose of the atonement.

I agree with the first statement, without Christ we would all be evil continually, without any means to return to our Heavenly Father. Without any means to become good.

I would however disagree with atonement changing us from bad to lost. The Atonement allows us to go from sin, to perfection. While covered in the atonement, through our Savior, we actually have become good.

I would disagree it neglects the atonement, because no one is saying that the atonement isn't able to cover the sin, nor the ability for a person to repent.

Labeling someone as good or bad is a judgment of being and is not an intermediate judgment. Judging their behavior is an intermediate judgment.

I disagree. If I call a murderer bad, it doesn't negate the ability for that person to repent, as the gospel is to help "bad men" to be "good men" and "good men" to be "better."

A final judgement would be in this case if I said, "You are going to hell because of that decision."

My judgement of calling someone bad is based upon the current time and place, not the eternity.

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This life is our proving ground, where we are to make the choices that will shape our final judgement. We are all children of our Heavenly Father and therefore have a portion of Divinity in our spirits.

"For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ." (Moroni 7:16-19)

Notice that this scripture does not tell us to judge people, but to judge things. Certainly, for purposes like maintaining our safety, we may term a person who lays hold upon evil things "bad" and avoid them, but we must also recognize that our state of being in this life is not final. Bad people can change, because they are not all bad. No matter how much they have succumbed to the promptings of the devil, they still have within themselves the light of Christ and their souls still hold a Divine nature capable of good.

Alongside this Divine nature, we also all have the weaknesses of our flesh known as the Natural Man.

"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (Mosiah 3:19)

This natural man, the desires of the flesh, leads us to seek self-gratification. When we indulge these desires we are granted temporary pleasure, which fools us into believing evil is good but leaves us empty inside, needing more and more in order to regain that same sense of pleasure. The more we listen to the natural man, the more dulled our senses become to the spirit, and the more likely our choices will lead us toward selfishness and eventually, evil.

"Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." (2 Nephi 2:27)

We all must play this balancing act between the Spirit of Christ and the Natural Man- striving for self-control and the ability to cast off the natural man entirely so that we may choose "liberty and eternal life" as we "lay hold upon every good thing". I would hesitate in calling anyone evil, because such holds a note of finality and it simply is not our place to make that judgment call. None of us know enough about another individual to determine something so final. Only the Lord can make that call:

"For the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7)

This is why: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." (D&C 64:10)

I would even hesitate in calling another person bad, but not quite as much as I hesitate in using the term evil. This distinction can be a necessity when we need to protect ourselves, and it is more flexible than "evil". A bad person can still become good, just as a good person can become bad. Mostly though, I stand by my previous statement- that the majority of people who make bad choices are simply misled. They were fooled by the Natural Man and likely believe their decisions are good. Does that make them bad? I don't think so. Their minds and hearts have become dull to the promptings of the spirit, and it has become difficult for them to identify the difference between right and wrong. And if they were born in ignorance and never had the opportunity to learn the gospel, the atonement will cover their sins so long as they live the best they knew how.

"For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel." (2 Nephi 9:26)

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There is a kind of false reasoning known as denying the antecedent or 'reverse logic doesn't work period'.

If A is True -> Then B is False

B is false

FAULTY logic (denying the antecedent, or reverse logic doesn't work, period ) would say that since B is false, A MUST be true.

Nope. No idea. The relationship Just. Doesn't. Work. That. Way.

Ex)

Sick people take pills

So... If I don't take pills, I won't get sick!

Jumping off the Empire State Building would kill me

If I don't jump off the Empire State Building, nothing can kill me!

The inability to recognize faulty logic is actually suggestive of a neurological problem. It's part of the diagnostic process in ERs, as matter of fact. So is literal reasoning. If when asked "Why are you here?" The patient answers "I took a cab." it means they need a neuro consult before leaving.

I'm honestly concerned for you, Marlin, and this is meant kindly.

While many of us believe that there are several kinds of people, and many of us believe there is no way to accurately say what kinds of people their are for lack of information... No one who is disagreeing with the other side is continuously using faulty logic nor overliteralization in their position making.

If you're currently altered (pain meds post surgery, antidepressants, etc.) then this is easily explained. If so, I would counsel you to touch base with your provider, as there are some concerning side effects. If NOT, I would counsel that you seek help through your doctor or the local ER for a neurological consult.

I should highlight... This is NOT because we disagree. I disagree with people all the time. LOL, including here! Disagreement, especially in spiritual matters is expected. It's because of the WAY in which you are disagreeing with people. It's very very concerning.

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I my line of work, I see good people making bad decisions all the time. Does it make them a "bad" person, no I don't think so.

But I also see people continuing to live a lifestyle of bad decisions. Does that make them a "bad" person, in my opinion, yes.

When I say bad, I don't mean someone who is naughty, I mean someone who is pure evil.

People who makes choices to hurt, deceive and propogate evil live amongst us. Next door, down the street, a nation away. They are there. Some even try to do "good" so we might be deceived.

Just because someone is now in their 2nd estate, does not mean they were valiant in the pre-earth life. All it means, is they did not follow pure evil, at that time.

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On labeling.

I don't understand why we got into a discussion on "labeling". Looking at a person and judging that he is bad or good is not labeling. It is describing.

In martial arts, students are taught to avoid trouble by steering clear of potentially bad people and bad situations. How they decide if the person is bad is by keen observation and trusting their instincts. This observation breaks through the common societal prejudice (black man with a hoodie = bad, white man in a golf shirt = good).

To me, it's pretty plain and simple. If one desires bad things then he is bad. If one desires good things then he is good. Do I know for sure that Ted Bundy desired bad things? Not really. I don't know if his brain shut down when he went on a spree so that he was going against the desires of his inner self. Or maybe he believed that he was doing good by saving these women from the pains of life. I don't know. What I do know is that he did bad over and over and has not showed remorse for it. I can conclude he is bad. That's not labeling. That's a description. It's okay to call it as you see it. Call an apple an apple and move on. There's no point in having to twist what you see to call a Volkswagen a Mitsubishi.

Judging is different. Judging goes beyond describing. Judging is seeing Ted Bundy and losing every bit of compassion for the guy because you have described him as bad. Whatsoever you do for the least of your brothers and all that...

Edited by anatess
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Here is another thought for readers to chew on. :D

As fallen creatures I believe that it is impossible for a individual to choose good or evil on their own except they are influenced by a good or evil spirit. Thus, in order to be good a person one must seek out and connect with a clean spirit - the first of which is the Holy Ghost.

Likewise, in order for a person to experience evil they must seek out and connect to a unclean spirit - the first of which is Satan.

Therefore we have agency. To become influenced and connected (by our agency) to good or evil.

The Traveler

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Again, this is non sequitur. That some sinful people might be evil does not therefore imply that all sinful people are evil. Being in a state of sin does not necessarily equate to being "evil".

I hate to do it, (J/k!) but I agree with Vort. We all sin in some manner. It does not make us bad people, or evil.

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Yourself included?

The Traveler

I've never said that in my life.

It's a stupid thing to say when you've done bad things. It shows you're are more concerned with how you're viewed then on the pain or suffering you may have caused others.

When I have made mistakes or caused others harm I apologize, I don't try to convince them I'm a good person.

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I hate to do it, (J/k!) but I agree with Vort. We all sin in some manner. It does not make us bad people, or evil.

Then what does? What does make a difference that we should seek - according to you?

The Traveler

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I've never said that in my life.

It's a stupid thing to say when you've done bad things. It shows you're are more concerned with how you're viewed then on the pain or suffering you may have caused others.

When I have made mistakes or caused others harm I apologize, I don't try to convince them I'm a good person.

But is it not that an apology really just an effort to tell them (and convince yourself) that you are a good person?

Hmmmm - I am thinking this thought should stop here - before I get myself banned from the forum. :( For being a bad person.

The Traveler

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But is it not that an apology really just an effort to tell them (and convince yourself) that you are a good person?

Hmmmm - I am thinking this thought should stop here - before I get myself banned from the forum. :( For being a bad person.

The Traveler

An apology is an acknowledgment and recognition that what you have done is wrong it’s the most basic and initial step in repentance. Saying "I’m not a bad person" and "don’t judge me" is simply an act of self-pity.

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