Good people and bad people


Marlin1
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I was very surprised to see Vort use the word irregardless! :D

You know, I used that word unconsciously, without even thinking about it. Fascinating, really, because it used to be one of my pet peeves. When I noticed later on that I had used it, I almost went back and "corrected" it, but then decided that it wasn't really incorrect and I should just chill.

GRAMMAR GUY USAGE NOTE: "Everyday" is an adjective, used to describe things such as "everyday clothes" or "everyday tasks". It is often synonymous with "quotidian". If you actually mean to say "each day", then it's two words: "every day".

Edited by Vort
Grammar Guy can't spell.
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Thanks for your concern BadWolf, it is truly felt. Vort, thanks for your assessment and advice on where to seek help, this site will undoubtedly help.

Based on your rash assessments of my neurological state and experiential history of formal logic, I would be weary in trusting your assessment of another man's heart.

"For the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

There is light in all of us (minus the sons of perdition), I refuse to be blind to that light or diminish it in any way with such a sweeping judgment of their heart as bad. There is no good in bad, nor bad in good. To say that a man is either bad or good is so extreme and harsh it makes me cringe. Some will argue, I never said they are all bad. You're right, forgive me, they are just bad enough, perhaps just right over the line which qualifies them to be grouped together in the same classification as the sons of perdition and Satan himself. That makes it less harsh?!

Trust me, convincing another person that they are bad (not that they have done bad, but that they are bad), will only reinforce their false beliefs of self and perpetuate evil. You don't want to be a part of that do you? They need to believe that there is light within and embrace their identity of child of God rather than their identity of good or bad. Your judgments hurt, they do no good for you or them.

I would love to respond to all of your comments. I truly do enjoy discussing these issues, but this is getting out of hand and I recognize my part in that. I have not adequately defended my stance, nor have I been convinced of your stances. So, I bow out unchanged in belief. I know that some of you worry that I may not be able to protect myself without judging others as good or bad, please don't worry, I do get by ok.

Edited by Marlin1
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Trust me,

Nope, not trying to be rude, but who are you that I should place any trust in your personal interpretation?

convincing another person that they are bad (not that they have done bad, but that they are bad), will only reinforce their false beliefs of self and perpetuate evil.

No one responded to you trying to convince you that we should convince someone is bad or good. This point is moot.

They need to believe that there is light within and embrace their identity of child of God rather than their identity of good or bad. Your judgments hurt, they do no good for you or them.

First sentence, true, people need to know their identity as a child of God. Even as a child of God people can be good or bad.

As pertaining to the last statement, without a judgment we are unable to assist a person to change.

A judgement is only detrimental if the judgement is false. If the judgement is sure and true, then the judgement actually benefits the person, it doesn't harm them in the least. This is why we have judges in Israel.

I am not worried about you. We have a difference of opinion.

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A judgement is only detrimental if the judgement is false. If the judgement is sure and true, then the judgement actually benefits the person, it doesn't harm them in the least. This is why we have judges in Israel.

I am not worried about you. We have a difference of opinion.

Hmmmm - are you suggesting that not everyone that pats you on your back and encourages you is your friend and not everyone that criticizes you and tells you to get your act together (change your ways) is your enemy?

The Traveler

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It is so hard to walk away. One last post.

Nope, not trying to be rude, but who are you that I should place any trust in your personal interpretation?

I realize that you don't know me. In this particular area I do have personal experience. I have been through the hell of addiction. Only recently has the Lord shown me that at the core of my addiction is the belief that I am bad and unloveable. I didn't even realize it was there, I had to dig deep iinto my heart, deep down into scary places. The Lord showed it to me as clear as day. This belief, in part, was due to the judgments of others who truly meant well.

judgement is only detrimental if the judgement is false. If the judgement is sure and true, then the judgement actually benefits the person, it doesn't harm them in the least. This is why we have judges in Israel.

It will never benefit the person. Even you argued that to get a "good man" to sin, all you have to do is tell him he is good. Well, if you want to get a "bad man" to stay bad, convince him that he is bad. Judges in Israel are here to judge doing not being. That is God's job.

Edited by Marlin1
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In this particular area I do have personal experience. I have been through the hell of addiction. Only recently has the Lord shown me that at the core of my addiction is the belief that I am bad and unloveable.

Well, I personally know someone who is a recovering alcoholic (15 years), and has struggled with similar self-hating beliefs. His opinion about the existence of good or evil people is the complete, total, 180 degree, mirror image of yours. (Maybe a bit less passion on trying to convince others on his opinion.)

I'm not saying you're wrong and he's right - just forwarding the notion that just because someone has 'been there' doesn't necessarily produce folks with the same opinions.

Well, if you want to get a "bad man" to stay bad, convince him that he is bad. Judges in Israel are here to judge doing not being. That is God's job.

Agreed, for the most part.
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There is no good in bad, nor bad in good. If this is true, then to say that a man is bad is to say that there is no good in him by definition. To say that a man did bad, on the other hand, is a far more accurate statement.

Edited by Marlin1
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Well, I personally know someone who is a recovering alcoholic (15 years), and has struggled with similar self-hating beliefs. His opinion about the existence of good or evil people is the complete, total, 180 degree, mirror image of yours. (Maybe a bit less passion on trying to convince others on his opinion.)

I'm not saying you're wrong and he's right - just forwarding the notion that just because someone has 'been there' doesn't necessarily produce folks with the same opinions.

I can't say that I really self-hated, rather, I believed that I was somehow unacceptable to others. I guess, in a way, I was angry at myself for that. I was a "bad boy."

It sounds like your friend recognizes the damage of such destructive beliefs. Why would we ever create even the potential for such damaging beliefs to enter the heart of man through our judgment?

Ok, now, I'm really done...probably not.

Edited by Marlin1
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Hmmmm - are you suggesting that not everyone that pats you on your back and encourages you is your friend and not everyone that criticizes you and tells you to get your act together (change your ways) is your enemy?

The Traveler

If I am understanding you correctly Traveler, yes, this is what I am saying. With regards to your first statement, I am reminded of a conference talk titled, "Beware of the Evil behind the Smiling Eyes."

Unfortunately, many young men and young women have fallen in glory, due to the friendly encourages of those who would lead them astray.

As pertaining to your last statement, yes, a person whose criticism is to help me get my act together, like my wife, to change certain behaviors, or get my act together, is certainly not mine enemy.

I think of the Lord's rebuke to Peter "Get thee hence Satan" could have been taken the wrong way, but it was a sure and true statement to help Peter change and correct his pattern of thought and actions.

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I realize that you don't know me. In this particular area I do have personal experience. I have been through the hell of addiction. Only recently has the Lord shown me that at the core of my addiction is the belief that I am bad and unloveable.

I have a brother-in-law who also has been through hell and back due to addiction. That is wonderful you were able to overcome.

This is where we would diverge in agreement. I don't believe it is that you felt you were bad, that caused you your pain. However, as a result of bad choices, you felt unloveable, and that is the root of the problem.

Bad people must still be loved, if we want to help change them. As long as people feel unloveable, there is no way they will change. The result of your change from "bad" to "good" is a direct result of the love of God, and through the Atonement.

It will never benefit the person. Even you argued that to get a "good man" to sin, all you have to do is tell him he is good. Well, if you want to get a "bad man" to stay bad, convince him that he is bad. Judges in Israel are here to judge doing not being. That is God's job.

I realize we disagree. A righteous judgment will always benefit a person, if that person is open to the judgement.

I personally believe people do not change until they are able to accept who and what they are. If they are bad, then they must know bad people can change. If they are good, they must know they can be better.

A judge in Israel actually judges both, being and doing. A person can not truly help a person unless they have an idea of their state of being.

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This is where we would diverge in agreement. I don't believe it is that you felt you were bad, that caused you your pain. However, as a result of bad choices, you felt unloveable, and that is the root of the problem.

That is the root of my problem huh? I am amazed at how rashly people make assessment of me and my problems here. It just reinforces my doubt in the ability of man to judge a man's heart. You have no idea what caused my pain. Why and how could you disagree?

Edited by Marlin1
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How could you disagree with me when I have never revealed the circumstances? As a result of bad choices? Again such rash judgments make me question our ability to really understand the heart of man. I didn't even understand my own heart until I finally built up the courage to venture into the dark corners. And yes, it is the belief that I am bad that fueled my addiction for 20 years. And yes it was that belief that caused pain. I was not a bad kid, in fact I was pretty squeaky clean. And yes it was in large part the judgment of man that led to my belief that I was a bad kid.

This doesn't make sense to me. If I understand you correctly, you got swept into addiction because people think you're bad, so you thought you were bad too? Is it your parents that told you you are bad? Because, it's not a normal reaction to think you're bad just because somebody else said you're bad unless it came from your source of self-identification (usually the parents when they are present and then the teachers - either at school or at church, those who are instrumental in the formation of the child's psychology/principles).

For example, you can tell my kid how stupid he is, he will just laugh at you because nothing in his world view points to him being stupid. Now, if I was the one telling him day in and day out he is stupid, then he just might start believing it because his parents are his main source of feedback. Of course, that will only last until he goes to school and finds out it's easy to get A's and a conflict starts to occur because he sees proof that he is not stupid - so, he will start to question his parents...

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This doesn't make sense to me. If I understand you correctly, you got swept into addiction because people think you're bad, so you thought you were bad too? Is it your parents that told you you are bad? Because, it's not a normal reaction to think you're bad just because somebody else said you're bad unless it came from your source of self-identification (usually the parents when they are present and then the teachers - either at school or at church, those who are instrumental in the formation of the child's psychology/principles).

For example, you can tell my kid how stupid he is, he will just laugh at you because nothing in his world view points to him being stupid. Now, if I was the one telling him day in and day out he is stupid, then he just might start believing it because his parents are his main source of feedback. Of course, that will only last until he goes to school and finds out it's easy to get A's and a conflict starts to occur because he sees proof that he is not stupid - so, he will start to question his parents...

You guys aren't exactly creating a trusting environment for me to want to share. No one wants to be critically analyzed or refuted when it comes to such sensitive matters.

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That is the root of my problem huh? I am amazed at how rashly people make assessment of me and my problems here. It just reinforces my doubt in the ability of man to judge a man's heart. You have no idea what caused my pain. Why and how could you disagree?

My father gave me advice - he said that if you are to improve (change anything) it is best to seek out the best experts you can find concerning that which you wish to improve. For example, if one wishes to understand mathematics they should seek out the very best mathematician they are able. What to avoid are those that fail at mathematics - failures really are not any help at all and will only add confusion.

The problem is that those having difficulties comprehending the rigors and discipline of mathematics tend to find kindred spirits (understanding of sorts) in others struggling or failing at the discipline of mathematics and tent to sense an arrogance towards them (and their kindred spirits) in those that have mastered mathematical discipline. Indeed this is not misreading - because experts of any discipline tend to diminish those that have not mastered their craft and view them as inferior.

What is extremely rare is to find that expert that is willing to work with and teach those struggling or not proficient in the craft. Jesus Christ is a most rare exception. But as rare as he is - he will only work with and teach those willing to learn from him on his terms. And this bring me to my point. To learn from an expert one must be willing to deal with them on their terms. This is a very old and ancient wisdom that is almost always overlooked by the neophyte.

BTW - if you do not find an expert here for what you are seeking - that will make you the expert - at least for now and someone may be searching for a safe harbor in the storm that is threatening them so then it is up to you to light the lower lights for them.

The Traveler

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Then what does? What does make a difference that we should seek - according to you?

The Traveler

I can't say, precisely. Has anyone ever read Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality? In the book about Death, when he collects a soul, he has a device that balances the good and bad things a person did in their life. More good, it floats up, more bad, it floats down. (Non religious fantasy serious, obviously) But I think, on some level, it makes sense.

Situation- A person drinks a cup of coffe evry morning. He/She lives the gospel/WoW in every other respect. They are sinning every day. Are they then, therefore, a 'bad' person?

Someone mentioned intent. I think we should not confuse bad/ good with righteous/ evil. There is a similarity, of course, they run parallel to eachother, but are not exactly the same, are they? I could be crazy. Probably not expressing this right.... Does anyone know what I'm trying to say?

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failures really are not any help at all and will only add confusion
.

I disagree on this note. If you are aware of someone else's mistake, can't that make it easier for to avoid making the same one? I mean, I thought that's why we teach history....

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That is the root of my problem huh? I am amazed at how rashly people make assessment of me and my problems here. It just reinforces my doubt in the ability of man to judge a man's heart. You have no idea what caused my pain. Why and how could you disagree?

It isn't a rash judgement Marlin1. I simple don't agree with your personal assessment. When people do not accept their current state of being, this is called denial.

My brother-in-law, didn't feel loved and accepted due to choices he has made. In my experience, when we don't feel "loved" or we feel "unloveable", this is why people typically do not change, or spiral into strange roads.

A logical assessment of situations isn't rash in the least. I would agree men, in and of themselves, are not able to judge a man's heart, however with the spirit the heart of men can easily be judged.

I understand you feel that it was because you felt "unloveable" and this I would agree with.

I can disagree, because I simply have "moral agency" and a God given "logical mind" to accept what appears as truth, and what appears as personal opinion.

Either way brother, I am glad to hear that through the atonement you have found your way back. This is simply wonderful!

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You guys aren't exactly creating a trusting environment for me to want to share. No one wants to be critically analyzed or refuted when it comes to such sensitive matters.

This is the internet. You are who we read you as. The blank areas we fill with things we know. This is normally not an issue - as in, most discussions don't care if you're a 12 year old buddhist pretending to be a 70 year old LDS bishop as long as your posts is consistent with what we know are the thoughts and experiences of a 70 year old bishop...

What gets the turmoil in the peaceful ocean is when one states an opinion and we detect the sentiment as being based on some world view that got formed from a non-normal experience and we only get sketchy ideas of what that experience is - so we plug it in with what we know of that experience... like Andennex plugging his relative's addiction experience... and me plugging in what I know of the subject... and that doesn't coincide with what we understand is your world view so it is hard to understand your opinion.

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You guys aren't exactly creating a trusting environment for me to want to share. No one wants to be critically analyzed or refuted when it comes to such sensitive matters.

That may indeed be a problem. Insofar as you are our brother and want or need to express your feelings, viewpoints, and insights, that is indeed bad. But this is a discussion list, not a Priesthood quorum or a therapy group. The nature of conversation is different.

For example, you have stated quite unambiguously that you think it's morally wrong to classify people as "good" and "bad". In a Priesthood quorum or therapy session, we might want to explore that idea, draw out of you why you think that way, gently wonder about alternative possibilities, and so forth. But on a discussion list, it's fodder for, well, discussion. You say, "We should never classify people as 'good' and 'evil', because that's passing judgment on them." Someone else says, "No, you're wrong. It's effectively judging their intent and actions. We must pass such judgments just to live our lives. Otherwise, we cannot distinguish between the thief, the child molester, and the honest man."

That's how discussion lists are. We discuss things.

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You guys aren't exactly creating a trusting environment for me to want to share. No one wants to be critically analyzed or refuted when it comes to such sensitive matters.

Please don't feel that way, Marlin1. You are entitled to feel however you feel. Of course we don't know you, all we see is the black & white here. The personal experiences you share, (which must be difficult for you,) are appreciated, as it gives us a chance at perspectives we would otherwise be without.

Thank you for sharing with us, and don't lose heart. :)

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It isn't a rash judgement Marlin1. I simple don't agree with your personal assessment. When people do not accept their current state of being, this is called denial.

My brother-in-law, didn't feel loved and accepted due to choices he has made. In my experience, when we don't feel "loved" or we feel "unloveable", this is why people typically do not change, or spiral into strange roads.

A logical assessment of situations isn't rash in the least. I would agree men, in and of themselves, are not able to judge a man's heart, however with the spirit the heart of men can easily be judged.

I understand you feel that it was because you felt "unloveable" and this I would agree with.

I can disagree, because I simply have "moral agency" and a God given "logical mind" to accept what appears as truth, and what appears as personal opinion.

Either way brother, I am glad to hear that through the atonement you have found your way back. This is simply wonderful!

Your logical assessment of what situation? I have never shared with you my situation, I'm not sure how you can disagree with something I have never shared - making it rash. You don't agree with my "personal assessment"? First, What makes you think that this was a "personal assessment"? Second, Who are you to assess me? You don't even know me, and yet you seem to think that you know me better than any professional or bishop that does know my situation. I'm sorry, but my healing was not based in the false understanding of my problem? I'm not sure, are you accusing me of being in denial? One does not find healing in denial.

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