Traditional "heaven and hell" ideas violate the Law of Moses

[Vort]

Within the last few months, I have realized a few things about the Law of Moses:

• It is based on eternal truths, so most of it is itself eternally true.
• If we as a society lived the Law of Moses today, we would think we lived in heaven.
• It is a "lesser law" only in the sense that there is a higher law that supersedes it, but (as stated above) it is a much higher law than we commonly see or live by today.
• It is a law of great mercy, designed to reign in people's violent and hateful instincts toward endless retribution.

For instance, look at Hammurabi's Code. It includes important ideas such as a presumption of innocence and starts from the premise "an eye for an eye". But it adjusts the punishment depending on the social status of the transgressor and victim. The law of Moses does no such thing; social status is not a determining factor, except slave vs. non-slave or Israelite vs. gentile.

The whole "eye for an eye" thing is significant, too. We today misunderstand that to mean it's a law that exacts horrible retribution. On the contrary, as comparison with the Babylonian law demonstrates, its purpose is to prevent disproportionate retribution. If someone gouges out your eye, you are not allowed to torture him to death after selling his family into slavery. Rather, you are allowed to gouge his eye out. And a way is provided that they can buy their way out of retribution, but only if you agree to it.

Which brings us to traditional ideas of heaven and hell. Hell, specifically, is seen as a place of endless and unspeakable suffering for evils committed. Yet this is clearly disproportionate; even the worst, most unspeakable and horrific crime is of limited duration, so any fitting punishment must be proportionate to that -- that is, it must also be limited. Endless punishment can only accompany endless crime.

What crime is endless? Perhaps the crime of destroying the soul of a person. Is it even possible to destroy someone's soul? Maybe not. Maybe the only soul you can destroy is your own.

Ah. That makes sense. Now we can begin to understand why the denial of the Holy Ghost is the only "unforgivable" sin: You cannot possibly repent because you have destroyed your own desire to repent, removed the only way you have to repent. You have killed that piece of God within you. Denying the Father, denying the Son, does them no harm. You may deny them, but you cannot harm or destroy them. But denying the Holy Ghost utterly removes that influence from your soul and leaves you without the "spark of divinity" that otherwise inhabits the human soul. There is no light left within you; you literally become spiritual darkness. How can there be redemption from such a state? There cannot.

But this is a state that you do not merely bring upon yourself; you actively pursue it. No one falls into endless hell by accident or by overlooking something, or even by a series of selfish choices.

I am not of the LDS contingent who insists that the number of the "sons of Perdition" can be represented by the fingers on one hand, or that only those who have seen Jesus Christ can merit eternal damnation. I don't even accept the idea that one must be an endowed Latter-day Saint to inherit such a state; I think it's possible for a non-Mormon to deny the divinity within himself and utterly turn from God. But the common Christian idea of hell as a place of never-ending torment where Mormons and other sinners are sent for all eternity is not merely ludicrous, it is as anti-God and anti-justice as anything I can imagine.

Honestly, with such doctrines commonly accepted, it is no wonder that many who call themselves "Christian" act like anything but.

[Traveler]

Within the last few months, I have realized a few things about the Law of Moses:

• It is based on eternal truths, so most of it is itself eternally true.
• If we as a society lived the Law of Moses today, we would think we lived in heaven.
• It is a "lesser law" only in the sense that there is a higher law that supersedes it, but (as stated above) it is a much higher law than we commonly see or live by today.
• It is a law of great mercy, designed to reign in people's violent and hateful instincts toward endless retribution.

For instance, look at Hammurabi's Code. It includes important ideas such as a presumption of innocence and starts from the premise "an eye for an eye". But it adjusts the punishment depending on the social status of the transgressor and victim. The law of Moses does no such thing; social status is not a determining factor, except slave vs. non-slave or Israelite vs. gentile.

The whole "eye for an eye" thing is significant, too. We today misunderstand that to mean it's a law that exacts horrible retribution. On the contrary, as comparison with the Babylonian law demonstrates, its purpose is to prevent disproportionate retribution. If someone gouges out your eye, you are not allowed to torture him to death after selling his family into slavery. Rather, you are allowed to gouge his eye out. And a way is provided that they can buy their way out of retribution, but only if you agree to it.

Which brings us to traditional ideas of heaven and hell. Hell, specifically, is seen as a place of endless and unspeakable suffering for evils committed. Yet this is clearly disproportionate; even the worst, most unspeakable and horrific crime is of limited duration, so any fitting punishment must be proportionate to that -- that is, it must also be limited. Endless punishment can only accompany endless crime.

What crime is endless? Perhaps the crime of destroying the soul of a person. Is it even possible to destroy someone's soul? Maybe not. Maybe the only soul you can destroy is your own.

Ah. That makes sense. Now we can begin to understand why the denial of the Holy Ghost is the only "unforgivable" sin: You cannot possibly repent because you have destroyed your own desire to repent, removed the only way you have to repent. You have killed that piece of God within you. Denying the Father, denying the Son, does them no harm. You may deny them, but you cannot harm or destroy them. But denying the Holy Ghost utterly removes that influence from your soul and leaves you without the "spark of divinity" that otherwise inhabits the human soul. There is no light left within you; you literally become spiritual darkness. How can there be redemption from such a state? There cannot.

But this is a state that you do not merely bring upon yourself; you actively pursue it. No one falls into endless hell by accident or by overlooking something, or even by a series of selfish choices.

I am not of the LDS contingent who insists that the number of the "sons of Perdition" can be represented by the fingers on one hand, or that only those who have seen Jesus Christ can merit eternal damnation. I don't even accept the idea that one must be an endowed Latter-day Saint to inherit such a state; I think it's possible for a non-Mormon to deny the divinity within himself and utterly turn from God. But the common Christian idea of hell as a place of never-ending torment where Mormons and other sinners are sent for all eternity is not merely ludicrous, it is as anti-God and anti-justice as anything I can imagine.

Honestly, with such doctrines commonly accepted, it is no wonder that many who call themselves "Christian" act like anything but.

Many "traditional" views are found not in the ancient teachings from Apostles and Prophets but in reality from apostate pagan traditions. Anciently hell and death were synonymous. The concept of hell as a permanent place where demons torment and punish the wicked is a pagan notion straight out of the ancient traditions of Baal. In fact many "Christian traditional" notions have origin in ancient Baal traditions and are not really scripture - but rather more along the line of ancient philosophies (meaning pagan philosophies) mingled with scripture.

The Traveler

[jerome1232]

That last sentence was a little unnecessary but I enjoyed reading the post.

[Vort]

That last sentence was a little unnecessary but I enjoyed reading the post.

Actually, it was the last sentence that indirectly led to my examination. I find it fascinating, and more than a little disturbing, to see those who fanatically proclaim themselves "Christian" while doing all sorts of patently unChristian things. Usually, I can understand people by putting myself in their position (or a similar position) and then examining what my own feelings, beliefs, and actions would be. But sometimes, even that doesn't work.

How would I feel about things or view things differently if I believed that an unending hell awaited most people? How would my attitude be different if I thought that God would place unimaginable suffering for all eternity on people because they, for example, didn't get baptized correctly? It's an absurd thought, but one held by a great many people. How would it change my viewpoint? Is it any wonder that some people say, "I will vote for Candidate X, whose policies I abhor and whom I consider a liar, instead of Candidate Y, whose policies I support and whom I believe is honest, because Candidate Y is going to hell for all eternity because he belongs to the wrong church, and I don't want anything to do with that"? I mean, it's a ridiculous and unreasonable belief, but it's perfectly logical.

[Guest SquidMom]

You make a lot of god points, here, Vort. The concepts of Heaven and Hell vary so much between Christian denominations. I always thought that the LDS definition of 'Hell', Spiritual Darkness, pertained to those who were taught of Christ, given the opprtunity to recieve the gift of The Holy Ghost, even in the Spirit World, but denied Him? Isn't it supposed to be 'Hell' because of the mental and spiritual torment of finally learning the absolute truth and knowing that you chose to turn from it? I was under the impression that it was not punishment of mortal sin, but the suffering of the absence of Christ for all eternity because you denied Him.

I mean, even if you don't repent during mortal life or your time in the Spirit World, does belief in Christ get you to the Telestial Kingdom? I guess there is a lot on this subject that I am very unsure about.

[jb789]

Now we can begin to understand why the denial of the Holy Ghost is the only "unforgivable" sin: You cannot possibly repent because you have destroyed your own desire to repent, removed the only way you have to repent. You have killed that piece of God within you. Denying the Father, denying the Son, does them no harm. You may deny them, but you cannot harm or destroy them. But denying the Holy Ghost utterly removes that influence from your soul and leaves you without the "spark of divinity" that otherwise inhabits the human soul. There is no light left within you; you literally become spiritual darkness. How can there be redemption from such a state? There cannot.

I think this is a very good point - I hadn't heard it described that way before, but it makes total sense.

[rameumptom]

Vort, nice deductions here. I'm glad you are finally starting to see things my way.

[BadWolf]

Honestly, with such doctrines commonly accepted, it is no wonder that many who call themselves "Christian" act like anything but.

There's a very good reason why Catholicism is the favorite religion of the Mob (not just Italian mob).

The Confessional.

[BadWolf]

What crime is endless? Perhaps the crime of destroying the soul of a person. Is it even possible to destroy someone's soul? Maybe not. Maybe the only soul you can destroy is your own.

Actually this is one of the very few points Id like to diverge on:

Crimes against children.

The vast majority of truly evil (as well as varying degrees of bad) people (that I've known) were MADE that way. By being broken/crushed/destroyed as children. These are the people in my "good to bad" people spectrum that I consider "damaged". (Actually, damaged group 2). People whose spirits were broken so badly that they become the evil inflicted upon them.

I'm personally rather fond with the way Egypt handles crimes against children: Its a Capitol Offence. Stop the cycle, now. Because to destroy a child's mind IS inflicting terrible damage on them for not only their entire life, but all the children they then pass on their own damage onto.

Which is how Ive always taken "Sins of the Father" to really mean.

[Vanhin]

Good thoughts Vort.

Hell is what one experiences as a result of separation from God and his influences. In very real ways, we experience varying degrees of hell already because of our sins here in mortality. In the scriptures it can be said that hell and spiritual death are synonymous, so I think the idea that you are talking about concerning the destruction of our own souls (in the case of sons of perdition) has validity.

God's power to save his children is truly great. In fact, the scriptures give us the assurance that spiritual death, or hell, is limited and temporary for even the vilest of unrepentant sinners, who will suffer for their sins and still enter a degree of glory in Heaven. For those, who "deny the Son after the Father has revealed him", however, there will be no such redemption from spiritual death, and it will be a "second death" where they will be cut off from the presence of God forever.

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; (D&C 76:43-46)

It is easy to see how the concept of Heaven and Hell is derived in traditional Christianity when you make perdition the breaking point. But it is actually more complex and comprehensive than that, yet simple at the same time.

Exaltation aside, those in the Celestial glory will "dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever" (D&C 76:62). They enjoy no separation from God. In the Terrestrial glory, those who dwell there will not receive the fullness of the Father, but will receive "of the presence of the Son" (D&C 76:77). In the Telestial glory, those who dwell there will only enjoy the ministration of the Holy Spirit (D&C 76:86). I think it is interesting that D&C 76:84 says that those who dwell in the Telestial kingdom "are they who are thrust down to hell". Yet, we know it is still a kingdom of glory. So, just like there are varying degrees of glory in the kingdom of Heaven, it can also be extrapolated that there are then varying degrees of hell, representing varying degrees of separation from God and his influence.

So, for me personally the threshold is much higher than the divide between some glory and no glory. The divide between heaven and hell for me is Exaltation and no exaltation. To be forever separated from the Father, and from the blessings of exaltation and eternal matrimony and family would be a "flame" that "ascendeth forever" to me.

Regards,

Vanhin