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I have a colleague who was a member of the LDS. She did not talk about your church very nicely and I would like to know whether Gerlinde (the name of my colleague) had reported everything to me correctly.

At once, I begin with that, that Gerlinde was transsexual. She was born as a man, always, however, found herself as a girl/woman. She told me now that such people are excommunicated, if they are members. They should become a member of the church after the sex change surgery that they can neither get the priesthood (men who were born as women) and can't visit a temple (what is this?). That they would be 2nd class members of your church. Is this correct? And, if yes, why this is so?

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The church doesn't have any 2nd class members. We are all God's children and He loves us all. That said, humans are imperfect fallen error-prone and sinful, and the church is full of humans. It is possible that Gerlinde was badly treated by people who should have known better.

Transgender issues are difficult, and there is much that can only be decided on a case-by-case basis. There is a wide range of people impacted with such issues, with legitimate medical issues, mental and psycological issues, and issues of agency and desiring things that are not good for us. None of us know Gerlinde although she has posted here before, so we can't really speak to her situation.

LDS Temples (Mormon Temples) - The House of the Lord 

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Lets start with the second paragraph of the Proclamation on the Family which states

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Please note the last sentence. It is a piece of doctrine that I think is very much unheard of outside the LDS/Mormon church, especially the before we were born part.

The LDS church has some gender differentiation, that as your friend noticed is in the area of priesthood and temple worship. Alot of people scream sexism and gender discrimination when they hear about any differences. While we understand why they feel that way we believe that is the way God set it up and so any complaints about it are like a guy complaining that he can't give birth to a baby. Sure its a gender based difference, but its the way God set it up and we can't/will not change it without his instruction to do so.

Now on to transgendered, for the small percentage of people who have a form of gender identity disorder things get confusing. In general the cause of this and any other disorder, sickness, physical weakness is caused by our fallen natures. In many of the other cases (sickness, wounds etc.) we can pin-point the cause and fight it/fix it, and we have no problem with doing so. In the case of gender identity disorder we do not know the cause. Without knowing the detail of the cause and given how important gender is in LDS theology, we can't just do stuff to change gender and hope we get it right.

This is why you friend can't hold the priesthood or go to the temple. Because we as a church don't know what is the correct path to encourage them on. This unknown is what make your friend feel like a second class citizen. Its an understandable feeling but barring a direct revelation from God or a scientific break through in the area of gender identity disorder that is a far as we can take them.

For your friend this falls into the category of 'can not do'. And in the LDS church this gives them a pass, for in the LDS religion things that you can not do you are not held accountable to God for doing. So your friend get a pass to living up to priesthood and or temple convents.

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@ estradling75,

If I have understood you correctly because my English is lousy; you then think; that people shall live so for their whole life as they are born. Because God had assigned this body to them. Because certain roles and jobs are connected to this body. Have I understood you correctly?

This means that your church does not accept transsexual people and Gerlinde reported to me correctly.

I have investigated something on the Internet and I found ou something interesting about transsexualism:

"In the end it is only the children themselves who can and must identify who and what they are. It is for us as clinicians and researchers to listen and to learn. Clinical decisions must ultimately be based not on anatomical predictions, nor on the 'correctness' of sexual function, for this is neither a question of morality nor of social consequence, but on that path most appropriate to the likeliest psychosexual developmental pattern of the child. In other words, the organ that appears to be critical to psychosexual development and adaptation is not the external genitalia, but the brain."

William Reiner, M.D., To Be Male or Female--That is the Question, 151 Arch Pediatr. Adolesc. Med. 225 (1997)].

Source: Transsexualism [ Part I ]

Hidden away and seldom talked about is the fact that some apparently normal boys aren't boys at all, but should have been girls. Although they have normal XY genes, normal male genitalia, and are raised as boys, they nevertheless have the gender feelings, body feelings and gender identity of girls. Similarly, some girls aren't girls at all, but should have been boys. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. And it's always been that way.

Perhaps once in every 200 to 400 births something must go amiss in the early stages of pregnancy so that sex hormones do not have the usual action on the integration of the fetus's brain. In these cases, children are born having a brain-sex (neurological sex) and innate gender identity opposite to that indicated both by their genes and their genitalia. Since these infants look normal, they will be raised in the wrong gender for their brain-sex (neurological sex). Being raised in the wrong gender causes them profound gender dysphoria and mental anguish as they grow up. These are the "transsexuals" (TS), the most intensely affected of the "transgendered" (TG).

In many more cases, perhaps as many as one out of every 50 children, it appears that the "transgendering effect" is less pronounced but still present to some degree - and this occurs in both boys and girls. We can estimate these numbers from the numbers of gender-variant people who have always coalesced in and around the gay community. Although a small fraction of that community, they are perhaps as much 1% to 2% of the overall population. This group of children presents a wide range of variations in cross-gender feelings (just as the group of intersex children present a wide range of genital configurations). Many of these transgender children will have major adjustment problems if forced into too strict a gender role.

Women notice these cases, especially the very feminine little boys who really should have been girls. They'll often even say among themselves "he should have been a girl". These common-sense reactions to feminine boys are seldom discussed outside the closed company of women. Fathers especially will make every effort to "straighten out" such boys. The feminine boy is mistakenly thought of as "pre-homosexual". Every effort is then made to "save the boy from that fate". On the other hand, the girl who feels like a boy can often become a "tomboy" and not get criticized for that - in fact she may even gain approval for being outgoing and aggressive and tomboyish in our male-dominated society. However, she may still feel the same degree of gender angst about her assigned gender role as does the MtF transgender boy.

There is no social script for such a boy to tell someone "I feel like I'm a girl", and to get active assistance with their gender problem. Instead, transgender youngsters often pick up the idea from parents and school-mates that they are "going to be gay men". Some may later even try to "become gay" and be accepted in the gay male community, when in fact that very seldom works. Gay men seek men as partners, not people whose gender identity is female. The last thing in the world that an MtF youngster could ever become is a gay male who is into his masculinity and his male parts even more than the average guy!

Many other transgender youngsters will secretly find ways to cross-dress in girls' and women's clothes as a way of exploring and enjoying their feminine gender feelings, often starting to do this well before puberty. The denial of opportunities for openly expressing their gender longings and the need to maintain complete secrecy about their crossdressing are often the source of tremendous angst, anxiety and depression among these kids.

A few MtF transgender and transsexual teenagers will try to appear openly as pretty girls, and may attract straight boys as love partners (i.e., boys who will love them as girls). Other MtF teens will seek the company of girls, and will become attracted to them and love them as if they themselves were lesbian. In such cases, if their girl friends are accepting of them, they can be wonderful and attentive lovers and partners. However, many transgender youngsters will become so ashamed and humiliated by their female tendencies that they will hide their "terrible secret longings" from everyone, sometimes even from themselves, for a long, long time.

For those who are strongly transgender or transsexual, living without having a properly assigned gender produces a nightmarish separation from the dance of life. Whether it's dating, finding love, courting, marrying, raising children, and generally doing all the little everyday things that continually celebrate one's own gender, the transgendered are often left stranded on the sidelines, to watch as spectators. Or worse yet, while feeling ugly and ludicrous in their male social appearance, they are forced to "act out" empty of all feeling a role that is alien to their inner female nature.

The overall name for the intense form of these cross-gender feelings is "gender dysphoria". (This condition is often called "gender identity disorder" (GID). However, we refrain from using the word "disorder", because we consider this condition to be a natural variation in human gendering. Instead we use the phrase "gender dysphoria", referring to the angst felt at being forced to live in the wrong gender).

Same source

Transgenderism and transsexualism are often mixed up with other common conditions involving cross-gender behaviors or appearances. We can learn more about transgenderism and transsexualism by contrasting them with these other conditions, and by visualizing the sometimes blurred boundaries that exist among these conditions.

As we discuss these conditions, remember that "labeling" is very imprecise in this field. Different people label things differently. Some people consider ALL situations involving cross-dressing as being under the "overall transgender umbrella". However, there are fundamental differences between those people who have cross-gender identities significant enough to lead them to transition (TG and TS people), as compared to those transvestites or gay male drag queens who are male-gendered. Unless those differences are well understood, lumping these situations together under one label can cause major confusion.

These confusions can also affect young TG/TS kids themselves as they struggle with their gender issues early in life. As we'll see, many TG/TS kids initially think that they must "be gay", or that they are "drag queens" or "crossdressers", as they try to pattern on something that seems to speak to their issues. As a result, many young TG/TS people migrate through the gay club scene and the crossdressers' clubs, on the route to working out their gender issues.

Also note that the emotions and feelings of gender variance are expressed in different ways in different cultures, depending on available social roles in which transgender people can exist in each culture. Different words may be used to describe of gender-variant people in a particular culture. These �types� vary widely from culture to culture, and evolve over time within each culture. See Lynn's page regarding the situations of TG/TS people in different countries and also the TransgenderAsia website, for examples of widely varying transgender typing in many different cultures.

Same source

For me it reads itself so as if God has made these people that way. And, if God has made these people that way, then they may live also so. This is my opinion.

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@ estradling75,

If I have understood you correctly because my English is lousy; you then think; that people shall live so for their whole life as they are born. Because God had assigned this body to them. Because certain roles and jobs are connected to this body. Have I understood you correctly?

This means that your church does not accept transsexual people and Gerlinde reported to me correctly.

This is not accurate.

First of all, we don't believe that God forced a body on us. We believe in pre-mortal existence. This means that our spirits are eternal - no beginning, no end. God organized our spirits to join His family and follow His path for our progression. We, therefore, chose to follow the Plan. With that, we also chose to come to earth and receive mortal bodies as a means for us to learn to master our desires by means of opposition. Each of us, by virtue of free will, accepted our specific challenges, including the individually unique physical challenges that came with our bodies.

The LDS Church believes that natural physical challenges - homosexuality, gender identity confusion, autism, down syndrome, psychological proclivities to undesirable behaviors such as drug addiction and alcoholism and depression, missing limbs, cross-wiring of neurons, etc... are part of these mortal challenges that we all decided - in pre mortality - to accept as part of our progression.

Jesus Christ laid down the path to eternal joy through the prophets old and new. In that path, current revelation through our living prophets shows that elective transsexual operations are sinful - that is, the challenge of gender identity is not to be solved by changing genders but by mastering a mis-matched physiological state. Just like the challenge of homosexuality is not to be solved by homosexual intercourse but by mastering what seems to be the non-natural gender.

Everyone of us have our own specific challenges to overcome. We are to cling to the Atonement of Christ to get us through these challenges because no matter how difficult the path is ahead of us, Jesus Christ's passion on the cross showed us that He loves us so much that he went through a violent death to show us the rewards of eternal life. He never promised that the path to joy is easy. He only promised that the rewards waiting for the faithful is great.

So, if you are a transsexual, you may still be baptized into the LDS church if you repent. No, you cannot hold the Priesthood keys... But many of us don't, so it's not like you're an oddity.

Somebody who is planning to have an elective transsexual operation cannot be baptized into the church just like somebody planning to drink coffee and tea cannot be baptized into the church. That is because baptism is a covenant to follow Christ's path to joy and part of that covenant is to live the Word of Wisdom and avoid sinful behavior.

Somebody who is already baptized LDS and decides to break his covenants by undergoing a sex change operation may possibly be excommunicated - this is not a "rejection" of the person. This is a way to release the person from his covenants so that he will not continue to face the eternal consequences of his action. This gives the person a chance to go through the repentance process and get back into the path to joy and hopefully get baptized again.

Now, of course, you may not agree that elective transsexual operations are sinful. In that case, you don't believe that the doctrines of Jesus Christ taught by the LDS Church is true so you wouldn't want to make that covenant and you should ponder and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit to know which church, if any, you should join.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Edited by anatess
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@ estradling75,

This means that your church does not accept transsexual people and Gerlinde reported to me correctly.

For me it reads itself so as if God has made these people that way. And, if God has made these people that way, then they may live also so. This is my opinion.

Jutta the core of your argument boils down to 'Because God made me this way... Therefore I can act how ever I please.' You are equating a state of being and choice to act as being one in the same and they are not.

Nor is this a new argument. It fails for transgenders as much as it fails for everyone else that tries it.

Let me spin up a example... I am a guy. I am biologically wired to have certain feeling and desires, and these lead me to want to act in certain ways. Science backs up these feeling as normal and understandable. Science says it is understandable for a guy to desire to have sex with as many women as possible because that is how he gets his genetic code into as many kids as possible. My biological wiring totally makes sense when science explains it.

The Church is perfectly willing to accept me as a man (just as it accepts Transgendered) but it tells me that acting on my biological desires has very sharp limits on what is acceptable (just like it tells Transgendered). Both groups need to keep a tight control over acting on our desires. As long as we are willing to accept those limits on our actions everything is fine.

But what happens when we choose to act outside the limits? Taking my case again as an example... If I go out and commit adultery (or just fornicate if I wasn't married) the church would have a problem with my actions. The church would act against me. Such action could be lost of temple privileges, lost priesthood, and even lost of membership.

Notice those penalties?... Those are the same one that your friend Gerlinde is complaining about. The same ones Gerlinde sees as persecuting and blames of a bias against Transgenderedism. The case for bias fails if everyone is being ask to be better then their biological selves, and everyone is held accountable when they fail.

As long as Gerlinde feels that they have no control over how they act they will fail.

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Hey Jutta - remember this?

Are you sure you're not here to do something besides just hear our side of the story?

No! I'm here to find answers about the topics gerlinde was talkin about. BTW, SHE is a transsexual, I'm a normal woman and her colleague.

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So, if you are a transsexual, you may still be baptized into the LDS church if you repent. No, you cannot hold the Priesthood keys... But many of us don't, so it's not like you're an oddity.

Gerlinde is a transsexual, I'm a woman born woman with lesbian feeelings. I'm not interested in joining any church.

Somebody who is planning to have an elective transsexual operation cannot be baptized into the church just like somebody planning to drink coffee and tea cannot be baptized into the church. That is because baptism is a covenant to follow Christ's path to joy and part of that covenant is to live the Word of Wisdom and avoid sinful behavior.

Why? If Scientists talk about transsexuality now as a part of human identity, which they hate before and punished for centuries, and they have evidences for it; Why should this be wrong? Why should such a person not be baptized? It is a matter between them and God/Jesus, not a matter of any church!

Somebody who is already baptized LDS and decides to break his covenants by undergoing a sex change operation may possibly be excommunicated - this is not a "rejection" of the person. This is a way to release the person from his covenants so that he will not continue to face the eternal consequences of his action.

I call this punishment and ignorant. What is about theit feelings, about their pain and suffering? Gerlinde spoke about how they had to cover-up her feelings of being a woman, trapped in a male body. About her two suicede attemps and her depressions. Such folks need help, not be sentenced and be punihed!!!

Now, of course, you may not agree that elective transsexual operations are sinful. In that case, you don't believe that the doctrines of Jesus Christ taught by the LDS Church is true so you wouldn't want to make that covenant and you should ponder and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit to know which church, if any, you should join.

To me, any kind of church or religion may be helpful, but mostly they are useless, because the didn't gave answers to peoples questions. They want that their folks are strictly obay and not with an open mind and heart.

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Gerlinde is a transsexual, I'm a woman born woman with lesbian feeelings. I'm not interested in joining any church.

I was using the word "you" in a general sense - not you specifically. I can change it to "we" and it would still mean the same.

Why? If Scientists talk about transsexuality now as a part of human identity, which they hate before and punished for centuries, and they have evidences for it; Why should this be wrong? Why should such a person not be baptized? It is a matter between them and God/Jesus, not a matter of any church!

Science provides the how, Religion provides the why. They work together. Science does not say "this is wrong, that is right". Science merely states - "this is what it is". Religion states "this is the right way, this is the wrong way". For example, Science states, "This is a knife. It is used to cut stuff." Religion states - "It is good to use a knife but it is wrong to use that knife to cut somebody's throat."

Morality, therefore, is not formed by Science alone. Now, if we're going to go by the concept that everything is between a person and God/Jesus - then what's the purpose of organized religion? Nothing. Then it's every man for themselves. A man born with the natural inclination to have sex with every woman in sight can just go ahead and have sex with anybody because it's between them and God/Jesus. Why bother with organized religion that states sexual activity with a person other than your wife is wrong?

But, in modern western society, religious freedom is common. Central to the LDS Church's teachings is free will. The Church does not force you to join and be baptized. So, if you don't believe in the teachings of the LDS Church, then why would somebody want to be baptized into the Church?

I call this punishment and ignorant. What is about theit feelings, about their pain and suffering? Gerlinde spoke about how they had to cover-up her feelings of being a woman, trapped in a male body. About her two suicede attemps and her depressions. Such folks need help, not be sentenced and be punihed!!!

That's what you believe. And that's just fine. That's not what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. We believe that the pain and suffering of gender confusion is not eased by a sex change operation. That's not the help they need. We believe that pain and suffering of gender confusion is eased by love. Imagine a world where those who are born a woman trapped in a man's body are still loved by everybody around them. And then imagine a world where those who are born a woman trapped in a man's body are encouraged/supported/taught how to love themselves.

Now, imagine a person born with bipolar disorder who tries to commit suicide every month due to severe depression. Imagine a person born to abusive parents, beaten, molested, locked in a closet. Imagine a person born without arms or legs. Imagine a world where these people are loved by everybody around them. And imagine a world where these people are encouraged/supported/taught how to love themselves in whatever shape or form they come in.

The problem with Gerlinde is not simply Gerlinde. The problem with Gerlinde is Gerlinde and the society. And that's what the Church tries their best to do - not only are they working on teaching Gerlinde to love himself just as he is, they are also teaching the society to love Gerlinde as he is. A sex change operation is not going to teach Gerlinde nor the Society love.

To me, any kind of church or religion may be helpful, but mostly they are useless, because the didn't gave answers to peoples questions. They want that their folks are strictly obay and not with an open mind and heart.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean that they don't have an answer. Yes, the Church teaches obedience - but the Church doesn't force us to obey. They encourage us to have an open mind and heart to understand the teaching so that we will CHOOSE to obey.

Now, here's the question... do YOU have an open mind and heart? ;)

Edited by anatess
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I want to hear only the other side of the story

...

I'm here to find answers about the topics gerlinde was talkin about.

I call this punishment and ignorant.

...

To me, any kind of church or religion may be helpful, but mostly they are useless, because the didn't gave answers to peoples questions. They want that their folks are strictly obay and not with an open mind and heart.

So, apparently your above claims are not true. You are not here only to hear our side of the story. You are here to cast critical judgement on our side of the story.

Jutta, you are asking the same questions over and over, and we are answering them over and over. If you refuse to deal with our answers, why are you here?

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No! I'm here to find answers about the topics gerlinde was talkin about. BTW, SHE is a transsexual, I'm a normal woman and her colleague.

We have a saying around here.... Actions speak louder then words.

Your words are saying that you are here to ask questions which is fine... But you actions in the second post were two or three lines of question... and a whole lot of lecture... Your action in that post run contrary to your claims.

Either style is really fine as long as the rules that you agreed to on sign up are obeyed. However if you want to continue to lecture us we need to move the conversation out of the Learn about the Mormon Church subfourm.

Why? If Scientists talk about transsexuality now as a part of human identity, which they hate before and punished for centuries, and they have evidences for it; Why should this be wrong? Why should such a person not be baptized? It is a matter between them and God/Jesus, not a matter of any church!

You say its between God/Jesus and not a matter of any church. We agree that it is between God/Jesus and an individual. As a member of the LDS church we take it as a matter of faith that the church is their proxy on earth. That it is through the leadership of the church that the will of God can and is made known. You don't believe this, and that is fine. But for us the will of God and the will of his church pretty much the same thing.

I call this punishment and ignorant. What is about theit feelings, about their pain and suffering? Gerlinde spoke about how they had to cover-up her feelings of being a woman, trapped in a male body. About her two suicede attemps and her depressions. Such folks need help, not be sentenced and be punihed!!!

You make it sound like Gerlinde is the only one that suffers... That she is the only one that has ever had depression, that she is the only one that has ever tried to commit suicide. She is not. There are alot of people that suffer, the cause of such suffering can and is different but the suffering is there. You imply we should give her special treatment for her suffering, but that is not going to help. What helps is to bring our lives into harmony with the mind and will of god. Which is exactly what the church was trying to help her do. She rejected that. She thought she had a better way. So the church let her go. She can find her own path if she wishes, and if and when she chooses to return the church will be waiting for her.

To me, any kind of church or religion may be helpful, but mostly they are useless, because the didn't gave answers to peoples questions. They want that their folks are strictly obay and not with an open mind and heart.

Which brings us back to the fact we have different idea about the relationship between God and his church. You see them as to totally different and sometime contrary groups. We see God as the king and ruler and the LDS church as his kingdom. Thus your friend isn't just rebelling against a church and its practices she is rebelling against the will of God. She is trying to tell God what is best for her and that rarely works out well.

It is fine that you don't believe this, but your friend Gerlinde before she became a member did or a least claimed that she did. Before she could be become a member she had to tell people that she believed the Book of Mormon was true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the LDS church was currently lead by a prophet of God. Either she lied about that and never believed, or she has gotten to busy trying to remake the Kingdom of God into the Kingdom of Gerlinde that she has lost it.

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