Catholic Ten Commandments?

[Guest Ivo_G]

So I just read that the traditional Catechetical formula of the Ten Commandments is the following:

1. I am the LORD your God:

you shall not have

strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take

the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness

against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet

your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet

your neighbor's goods.

So for people familiar with Catholic doctrine: why is the part about not making any graven images and all that missing? I know what would be the automatic reply of people outside the Catholic church but is there any theological reason given for this decision amongst Catholics?

[annewandering]

So I just read that the traditional Catechetical formula of the Ten Commandments is the following:

1. I am the LORD your God:

you shall not have

strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take

the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness

against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet

your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet

your neighbor's goods.

So for people familiar with Catholic doctrine: why is the part about not making any graven images and all that missing? I know what would be the automatic reply of people outside the Catholic church but is there any theological reason given for this decision amongst Catholics?

Those are pretty much shortened versions of the actual commandments. Perhaps they thought that was already covered? I dont know. I am LDS not Catholic. :)

[jerome1232]

So I just read that the traditional Catechetical formula of the Ten Commandments is the following:

1. I am the LORD your God:

you shall not have

strange Gods before me.

I thought that kinda covered it.

[Connie]

Yeah, it looks like they left out the one on graven images and then had to expand the one on coveting to cover two.

Here's the LDS one: LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Ten Commandments

[Jason_J]

So I just read that the traditional Catechetical formula of the Ten Commandments is the following:

1. I am the LORD your God:

you shall not have

strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take

the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness

against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet

your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet

your neighbor's goods.

So for people familiar with Catholic doctrine: why is the part about not making any graven images and all that missing? I know what would be the automatic reply of people outside the Catholic church but is there any theological reason given for this decision amongst Catholics?

This is a shorthand version of the commandments for Catholics. Catholics sometimes include the "graven images" portion in the 1st commandment. It is not ignored/deleted or anything else some people claim.

The Catholic Church Changed The Ten Commandments?

Graven Images: Altering the Commandments? :: Catholic News Agency

Did Catholics rewrite the 10 Commandments?

[Dravin]

Really, how you slice up the Decalogue isn't particularly important, as long as you have the same amount of pie at the end. BTW, those are some nice links Jason, I was coming in to make a comment about how verse divisions aren't original to the text, so saying, "These are in the same verse so are therefore the same commandment" runs into some issues, likewise with, "These are in separate verses and are therefore separate commandments."

Edited November 19, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

So I just read that the traditional Catechetical formula of the Ten Commandments is the following:

1. I am the LORD your God:

you shall not have

strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take

the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness

against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet

your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet

your neighbor's goods.

So for people familiar with Catholic doctrine: why is the part about not making any graven images and all that missing? I know what would be the automatic reply of people outside the Catholic church but is there any theological reason given for this decision amongst Catholics?

Of course it is not removed. That thing you listed there is just a "summarized" version. You won't find that in any Catholic Bible. You'll probably find that in school books or something.

Catholics don't use one single version of the Bible. There's a list of Catholic-approved Bible versions. A lot of Roman Catholics use the Douay-Rheims because of tradition (their great-great-great-grandmother handed down this bible as the family bible, or something, it's an old version), but there are also a lot of them who use the New Jerusalem version, the Ignatius version, RSV-CE, etc. etc. Each Parish Priest can decide what Catholic-approved version of the Bible to read off of at Mass.

Here is the Douay-Rheims account of Exodus 20:1-17 - The ten commandments:

[1] And the Lord spoke all these words: [2] I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. [4] Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. [5] Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. [7] Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain. [8] Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. [10] But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.

[11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. [12] Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee. [13] Thou shalt not kill. [14] Thou shalt not commit adultery. [15] Thou shalt not steal.

[16] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. [17] Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house: neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is his. [18] And all the people saw the voices and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mount smoking: and being terrified and struck with fear, they stood afar off, [19] Saying to Moses: Speak thou to us, and we will hear: let not the Lord speak to us, lest we die. [20] And Moses said to the people: Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that the dread of him might be in you, and you should not sin.

And here's the explanation that can be found on the bottom of the page about the graven images for the student edition of the Douay-Rheims:

[4] A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing: All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10.

(bold mine)

As you can see, not only is graven images present in the Catholic Bible, it even comes with explanation...

I grew up a devout Roman Catholic.

[Guest Ivo_G]

Thank you for your answer anatess :) but just to clarify - I didn't mean (and didn't say it anywhere) that that verse is missing from the Catholic Bible - that'd be ridiculous really...it's just that when it was pointed out to me that the traditional Catechetical formula doesn't include that verse - it kinda shocked me, it seemed like deliberately changing the Ten commandments...cos it's a separate commandment and is in no way included in the First commandment (not having other Gods and so on)...

p.s. Jason_J's links were very useful (although I still don't agree it works as a shortened version but that might be just me)...

[SteveVH]

Each Parish Priest can decide what Catholic-approved version of the Bible to read off of at Mass.

In the United States every Diocese and therefore every parish must use the NAB version. This is subject to change but the authority is in the hands of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, not each parish priest. I personally prefer the Douay-Rheims as it is closest to the Latin.

[SteveVH]

Thank you for your answer anatess :) but just to clarify - I didn't mean (and didn't say it anywhere) that that verse is missing from the Catholic Bible - that'd be ridiculous really...it's just that when it was pointed out to me that the traditional Catechetical formula doesn't include that verse - it kinda shocked me, it seemed like deliberately changing the Ten commandments...cos it's a separate commandment and is in no way included in the First commandment (not having other Gods and so on)...

Actually, the "graven images" command is part of the command to worship no other gods.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. [5] Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them"

This is not a command against art. It is a command against worshiping anything other than the one, true God. In the Holy of Holies the Arc of the Covenant had two cherubim molded from gold which sat atop it. Holding the position that the command prohibits making anything in the image of something else is going to far. We would have to dispose of photographs of our loved ones, the paintings hanging in our homes, etc. I have never been in the Temple in SLC but I hear it is beautiful and I am sure that there must be some art hanging around. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the difference in coveting one's goods and coveting one's wife, these are definitely two different commands because they address two different things. Desiring my neighbor's car is a far cry from desiring his wife.

Edited November 20, 2012 by StephenVH

[Guest]

Thank you for your answer anatess :) but just to clarify - I didn't mean (and didn't say it anywhere) that that verse is missing from the Catholic Bible - that'd be ridiculous really...it's just that when it was pointed out to me that the traditional Catechetical formula doesn't include that verse - it kinda shocked me, it seemed like deliberately changing the Ten commandments...cos it's a separate commandment and is in no way included in the First commandment (not having other Gods and so on)...

p.s. Jason_J's links were very useful (although I still don't agree it works as a shortened version but that might be just me)...

I don't understand why you would think it is deliberately changing the Ten Commandments. The direct reference to graven images is just a detailing of the commandment to "not have strange Gods before me". What is a graven image but a strange god?

The thing about this is - if you want to read your own understanding of Catholic doctrine, you can. Just like Catholics can read their own understanding of what LDS teaches... I can show you a jillion ways how wrong your understanding is of Catholic Catechism but you'll never believe it... why - because you are already convinced that Catholics "took out the graven image phrase because they have sculptures in their churhces" or what have you.

So, don't be surprised when you read all these anti-LDS material telling you what LDS supposedly believes... they're merely doing what you're doing except for the other side.

[SteveVH]

I don't understand why you would think it is deliberately changing the Ten Commandments. The direct reference to graven images is just a detailing of the commandment to "not have strange Gods before me". What is a graven image but a strange god?

The thing about this is - if you want to read your own understanding of Catholic doctrine, you can. Just like Catholics can read their own understanding of what LDS teaches... I can show you a jillion ways how wrong your understanding is of Catholic Catechism but you'll never believe it... why - because you are already convinced that Catholics "took out the graven image phrase because they have sculptures in their churhces" or what have you.

So, don't be surprised when you read all these anti-LDS material telling you what LDS supposedly believes... they're merely doing what you're doing except for the other side.

Thanks annatess. Your intellectual honesty is admirable.

Its a common misrepresentation which is usually made by Christian Fundamentalists. I think it probably is due to the fact that Catholic churches have traditionally been adorned with paintings, stained glass and statues. When one observes a pious Catholic kneeling before one of the statues in prayer it is understandable that one might get the wrong impression. What that person is actually doing is no different than one looking at a photograph of a loved one who has passed away. We believe that we are not separated from our loved ones by death and that we can ask them to pray for us just as we would ask someone here on earth to pray for us. We consider the saints in heaven as our family, our loved ones. Kneeling is just a physical posture of prayer. We don't worship statues nor the people they might represent, but it is understandable that people might get that impression without having it explained.

[Guest]

In the United States every Diocese and therefore every parish must use the NAB version. This is subject to change but the authority is in the hands of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, not each parish priest. I personally prefer the Douay-Rheims as it is closest to the Latin.

Hi Steve, is this a new policy? I thought the Philippines followed the same policy as the US. Last I remember (now, I haven't been Catholic for well over 10 years), the Philippines don't use any single version of the Bible. If my understanding is correct, the lectionary uses Vatican-provided verses. They don't match any of the versions used in school. Where I grew up, the Parishes don't always use what's in the lectionary. Different priests have their own "favorite" to read out of. Our school chaplain, for example, exlusively read out of Douay-Rheims which is not what's on the missal. But, I haven't been in school for a long, long time.

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, is this a new policy? I thought the Philippines followed the same policy as the US. Last I remember (now, I haven't been Catholic for well over 10 years), the Philippines don't use any single version of the Bible. If my understanding is correct, the lectionary uses Vatican-provided verses. They don't match any of the versions used in school. Where I grew up, the Parishes don't always use what's in the lectionary. Different priests have their own "favorite" to read out of. Our school chaplain, for example, exlusively read out of Douay-Rheims which is not what's on the missal. But, I haven't been in school for a long, long time.

I really don't know what they use in the Philippines or who has authority in that case. The NAB is a relatively new translation. Now, keep in mind that we are certainly allowed to read any version of the Bible that has been approved. In other words, we would never use the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT version as it has been overtly corrupted. We would use the KJV, providing it contains all of the books canonized by the Church. There is some bias, I would say, as the KJV represents the Reformation which is still a sore point.

I have taken classes where we might have three or four versions around the table. Some translations may capture a particular meaning better then others. The official version (New American Bible) is for the very purpose of matching the language in the American lectionary. Also keep in mind that there are definately some priests who will to do their own thing regardless. I'm not sure how loose they are in the Philippines. The doctrines of our Church are not based upon some translation of the Bible, however, so in the end the teachings are the same, regardless of the text being used.

Edited November 20, 2012 by StephenVH

[Guest Ivo_G]

The thing about this is - if you want to read your own understanding of Catholic doctrine, you can. Just like Catholics can read their own understanding of what LDS teaches... I can show you a jillion ways how wrong your understanding is of Catholic Catechism but you'll never believe it....

Lol...I read the links (admittedly not very thoroughly) that Jason provided and I accept the explanation there at face value but I just don't agree with the reasoning...I have that right, don't I? :)

p.s. btw if anything, I'm biased in favour of Catholicism cos I think the Catholic church is kinda cool and here in Bulgaria Catholic-bashing was never that popular - protestants on the other hand...

[Guest]

Lol...I read the links (admittedly not very thoroughly) that Jason provided and I accept the explanation there at face value but I just don't agree with the reasoning...I have that right, don't I? :)

Can you explain this further? I'd like to understand what you don't agree with... just so I know what you're talking about.

[SteveVH]

Can you explain this further? I'd like to understand what you don't agree with... just so I know what you're talking about.

Me too.

[X33ad]

First of all, the First Commandment as stated in every Catholic book and classroom is:

I am the LORD your God; you shall not have strange gods [or other gods] before Me.

So that definitely forbids idolatry. The question is whether there is a separate commandment that goes "you shall not make any graven image" and that is apart from the 1st commandment. Seeing as the Jews went on to make, at God's behest, a number of graven images (Ex 25:18-19, Num 21:8-9, 1Kgs 6:23-29, 1Kgs 7:25-45, etc.) it would be ridiculous to say that there is a separate "no graven images" commandment because then God would be a sinner.

Moreover the Fundamentalists who claim there is a separate commandment forbidding the making of and honoring the images of "dead people" are total and complete hypocrites. Why? Because all of them walk around with wallets full of images of dead people whom they honor.

These images look like this:

So, if they really believed what they accused the Church of then they should give all of their "graven images" to me for disposition.

Seriously though... they clearly honor Washington and Jefferson and Franklin like every American does. And those honorees are dead. So how is carrying a $100 bill any different from carrying a holy card of the Blessed Virgin* (as George Washington himself did!)... Who is more honorable, the Mother of God or someone who denied the divinity of Jesus like Ben Franklin?

* Bonus points if you answered, "of course it's different--Mary isn't dead!"

[Guest]

Who is more honorable, the Mother of God or someone who denied the divinity of Jesus like Ben Franklin?

Correction. Benjamin Franklin never denied the divinity of Christ. He doubted it - but not denied it. There is a difference.

[SteveVH]

Who is more honorable, the Mother of God or someone who denied the divinity of Jesus like Ben Franklin?

* Bonus points if you answered, "of course it's different--Mary isn't dead!"

Neither is Ben Franklin, assuming he made it to heaven.

Edit: Just saw that X33ad is banned. Oh well, point made.

Edited March 5, 2013 by StephenVH