Mormon and Muslim Veiling of Women


Obolus
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My apologies, Pam. And sorry also to those who feel I have spammed.

My main questions are those offered in the blog: Do the differences in LDS and Muslim veiling of women create more differences between the cultures? Or is there some common ground to be gleaned there?

One commenter on the blog did have reservations about veiling, yet her experience in the temple didn't necessarily leave her feeling oppressed. Is there any teaching regarding the veil and its symbolic meaning? Is it taught? And if not, what are the consequences of requiring it, and only of women, without a discussion?

My concerns are primarily retention. My family is dominated by members who left full activity shortly after being endowed and/or married in the temple.

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I am confident that the Muslim veil and the veil worn by women in LDS temples have a common ancestor, but the symbolism is quite different. At this point, I see little commonality between them beyond the obvious fact that they both veil the face of the wearer. The veil associated with the hijab is obviously meant to hide the wearer's physical presence, while the LDS veil is sheer and its function just as obviously ritual in nature. I do believe that ritual meaning has a literal meaning, but I am not sure what that literal meaning is or where it is reflected.

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The veil associated with the hijab is obviously meant to hide the wearer's physical presence

Well, this board is a little light on practicing Muslims, but I think if we had one here, they would phrase it differently. I don't know any personally, but I did go to a mosque open house ten years ago in Colorado and get some information on the subject. There was a woman in a full-length hijab (no veil). She carried and presented herself with an air of confidence. She told me the primary reason for hijabs had nothing to do with hiding anything. She said the primary reason is to protect the modesty and virtue of the woman wearing one. She said that the hijab was an outward symbol of an inward covenant. (That sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

The very physically-capable-looking woman then light-heartedly said straight out that the hijab was between her and Allah - and if anyone wanted to say otherwise, they should come forward and say it to her face, so she could put them in their place. Nobody came forward.

I know Islam is all over the planet, and if you ask the question in, say, a minor province in Saudi Arabia, you might get a very different answer. But that's the answer I got here in the U.S.

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Well, this board is a little light on practicing Muslims, but I think if we had one here, they would phrase it differently. I don't know any personally, but I did go to a mosque open house ten years ago in Colorado and get some information on the subject. There was a woman in a full-length hijab (no veil). She carried and presented herself with an air of confidence. She told me the primary reason for hijabs had nothing to do with hiding anything. She said the primary reason is to protect the modesty and virtue of the woman wearing one. She said that the hijab was an outward symbol of an inward covenant. (That sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

Indeed, and her explanation is what I had come to understand about the hijab. But note that I specified the veil associated with the hijab, which almost by definition functions to hide its wearer, unlike the ceremonial veil worn by women in the temple.

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My apologies, Pam. And sorry also to those who feel I have spammed.

My main questions are those offered in the blog: Do the differences in LDS and Muslim veiling of women create more differences between the cultures? Or is there some common ground to be gleaned there?

One commenter on the blog did have reservations about veiling, yet her experience in the temple didn't necessarily leave her feeling oppressed. Is there any teaching regarding the veil and its symbolic meaning? Is it taught? And if not, what are the consequences of requiring it, and only of women, without a discussion?

My concerns are primarily retention. My family is dominated by members who left full activity shortly after being endowed and/or married in the temple.

I don't have time to pull the cites, but Paul mentions veils a couple of times in his epistles. At one point he talks about women praying with their heads covered. At another point (Hebrews, perhaps?) he points out that when Moses descended from Sinai, he veiled his face because the people of Israel could not endure the glory that remained upon him after his encounter with the Lord and - if memory serves - asserts that this is a metaphor for Christ Himself.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

when Moses descended from Sinai, he veiled his face because the people of Israel could not endure the glory that remained upon him after his encounter with the Lord and - if memory serves - asserts that this is a metaphor for Christ Himself.

Thanks Just_A_Guy! That got my mind whirling with possibilities, so I found the scripture

2 Corinthians 3:7-15

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I did go to a mosque open house ten years ago in Colorado and get some information on the subject. There was a woman in a full-length hijab (no veil). She carried and presented herself with an air of confidence. She told me the primary reason for hijabs had nothing to do with hiding anything. She said the primary reason is to protect the modesty and virtue of the woman wearing one. She said that the hijab was an outward symbol of an inward covenant. (That sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

The very physically-capable-looking woman then light-heartedly said straight out that the hijab was between her and Allah - and if anyone wanted to say otherwise, they should come forward and say it to her face, so she could put them in their place. Nobody came forward.

I know Islam is all over the planet, and if you ask the question in, say, a minor province in Saudi Arabia, you might get a very different answer. But that's the answer I got here in the U.S.

Loudmouth, thank-you so much for sharing this experience. I think it places hijab in a different context than the messages that come through the media.

The association with covenant makes me think about Muslim veiling in an entirely different light. I wonder how their veils are initially implemented. I've seen pre-teens wearing them... I wonder what their initiation is, and if it is a community event or merely between mothers and daughters.

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why did Abraham tell his wife to say she was his sister?

22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord asaid unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.

wouldn't it have been much easier to just wear a veil? clearly Abraham did not practice public veil wearing.

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I think you may be right. But the question of veiling surrounding Abraham and those in his group is perhaps more related to courtship than to covering up. Rebekah traveled with Abraham/Isaac's male servant ostensibly with no veil, but veiled herself when meeting Isaac for the first time (Gen 24).

But who knows how, or in what ways, the tradition of veiling changed or shifted between Sarah/Rebekah (1800 BC) and Mohammad's time (600 AD)? Was the Qur'an the first social document to institute public veiling? Or did Islam inherit the practice?

It's difficult to know. And even more difficult to know if the idea originated with a man or a woman.

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The same Sura that stipulates women's modesty also provides instruction for men to maintain modesty. Additionally, there is a clause that talks about when such public covering is no longer required, and that modesty should be taught in the home.

Sura 24:30-31, 58-60

30. Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

58. O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

59. But when the children among you come of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does Allah make clear His Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

60. Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage,- there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty: but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.

Edited by mordorbund
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