Culture Traditions verses Doctrine

[Vort]

The one time that I remember a family who had a boy who didn't wear a white shirt, it was because of finances. However, he was provided a white shirt which he faithfully wore to church each time after he received it (which was before his 12th birthday).

He passed the sacrament in a non-white shirt, then afterward received a white shirt to wear...before his 12th birthday?

What am I missing here?

[skippy740]

I don't think he passed the sacrament. I think they were anticipating the needs for the family.

[beefche]

He passed the sacrament in a non-white shirt, then afterward received a white shirt to wear...before his 12th birthday?

What am I missing here?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. He did not pass the sacrament until he was ordained at age 12. He was given the white shirt prior to turning age 12, so he was ready to pass the sacrament. I think they also get some kind of traning prior to being ordained, because they sure know what they are doing the first time they pass the sacrament.

[classylady]

There have been times in our family when we couldn't afford to buy our Aaronic Priesthood boys white shirts. In our ward if no white shirt, the boys don't pass or bless the Sacrament. So, there would be months go by where my boys couldn't pass or bless the Sacrament.

[kathysmike]

A couple weeks ago my son was unable to locate his one tie in time to leave for church. So off to Church we went fifteen year old son no tie. Sure enough the Deacons Quorum President Approached him asked if he could help pass the sacrament my son got up and moved to the front of the chapel to take his place to pass the sacrament ,without his tie, I took a deep breath as I awaited his return to our bench after the Bishop told him he needed a tie to pass the sacrament. But much to my surprise I looked up and my son was at the end of our row offering us the emblems of the sacrament. Another example of tradition vs. doctrine.

Having grown up in this stake I was sure that passing the sacrament included sporting a tie.

b

[kathysmike]

Weekly we have a Brother who insist on siting in the center of our "row" after parking his walker on the end then trips of Brother and Sister D, both in there late Seventies, once the sacrament is passed he sets the

bread tray in his lap touches each and every piece partakes of 4or5 chuncks then once he has had his fill then he will hand the tray to the person sitting next to him. My earlier thoughts were I can't believe the Bishop lets this go on. Now I think wow Bishop Y really loves the members of his ward to allow this harmless annoying behavior to occur.

[Sali]

This issue for me gets me a little hot under the collar. I constantly have to take a deep breath when I think about it.

In our ward, our Deacons not only have to wear a white shirt and tie, but it is required they wear a suit jacket too. My son one Sunday, spilt something on his suit jacket prior to leaving. He didn't go up to pass the Sacrament because of this reason. Not enough Deacons showed up so he was asked to go help this one time, even if he did not have his jacket. Just prior to the meeting starting some more Deacons showed up and one was asked to take my son's place and my son asked to return to his seat. Boy, I was steaming that day.

I personally don't agree with white shirts etc as a requirement, but if that is how the Bishop wants to run things, then I'm not going to make a big stink of it. But I just think it is a shame that these type of situations happen, because of a cultural tradition. In fact, our ward was also admonished by the SP in one of our Sacrament meetings to let go of the traditions that our ward is heavily steeped in.

[Guest]

We have a deacon that passes the sacrament with the white shirt, black slacks, and black-with-white-trim skateboarder shoes.

2 Sundays ago, the bishop gave a talk in sacrament meeting and he said something to the effect of - you need to wear appropriate clothing to sacrament meeting including shoes. My husband and I looked at each other and wondered if this was inteded for that deacon...

[classylady]

We have a deacon that passes the sacrament with the white shirt, black slacks, and black-with-white-trim skateboarder shoes.

2 Sundays ago, the bishop gave a talk in sacrament meeting and he said something to the effect of - you need to wear appropriate clothing to sacrament meeting including shoes. My husband and I looked at each other and wondered if this was inteded for that deacon...

Very seldom have any of my four boys had more than one pair of shoes at a time (unless I count flip flops). I always tried to buy them a pair of casual shoes they could wear to school and look nice enough to wear to church.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

We have a deacon that passes the sacrament with the white shirt, black slacks, and black-with-white-trim skateboarder shoes.

2 Sundays ago, the bishop gave a talk in sacrament meeting and he said something to the effect of - you need to wear appropriate clothing to sacrament meeting including shoes. My husband and I looked at each other and wondered if this was inteded for that deacon...

Hmmm, that is really tricky for the reason you point out. Was he thinking of that young Deacon, who might not be able to afford better shoes ---or--- was he refering to young women wearing flip-flops (out side of Hawaii, or other places where that is culturaly appropriate :)).

I am trying to see his point of view with regards to wearing your best clothes (including shoes) as a form of worship....and yet, I worry that too much focus on that keeps us from seeing the real issues. For example, the financial issues of one member who otherwise has a strong testimony....or the struggling testimony of someone who wears flip-flops. If a person wears flip-flops, and we insist they wear "nice shoes"...whether they then comply or not, have we really gotten to the root of the problem? Have we helped this sister with her testimony? No.

I think the problem is a personality type that tend to be more concerned about rules than people. People with this personality type are drawn to religion, not just ours, because it offers the rules they love so much.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

In our ward, our Deacons not only have to wear a white shirt and tie, but it is required they wear a suit jacket too.

Yikes...that makes passing the sacrament cost prohibitive for many doesn't it? If this were the rule in my ward, my sons would never have been able to pass the Sacrament as Deacons, because we couldn't afford suit jackets for them at that time.

[skippy740]

I was thinking back to when I was a deacon. Our family moved from Santa Ana, CA (not the wealthiest of areas) to Irvine, CA (much more affluent).

I passed the sacrament with my short-sleeved white shirt, clip-on tie, docker-style pants and dark tennis shoes.

I was never discouraged from passing the sacrament. I don't even remember any dirty looks from the other boys or anything.

But I do admit and remember getting compliments when my parents got me some newer, more appropriate clothes. But nothing like "it's about time" or anything like that.

[Traveler]

Okay - I think we are loosing track of what is culture and what is doctrine. Obviously at the last supper when the sacrament was introduced - Jesus did not wear a white shirt and tie. And I doubt that anyone did for as long as the church remained prior to the Apostasy.

It should also be obvious that there are worth while traditions and other traditions that turn us away from sacred things.

I would have hoped that many would realize the some traditions in Asia turn Asians to G-d and some traditions in Americas turn Americans towards G-d - but the traditions may be different.

I would have hoped that readers would recognize traditions that turn individuals to G-d have good use - even if they do not seem important to us because we do not see the reason of a particular tradition in accord to the traditions that our culture has chosen.

I would also submit that traditions and culture are a possible means to communicate our love and compassion for other in ways that they can and should understand. I would also submit that it is doctrine that G-d uses traditions and culture as a way and means to communicate his most sacred thought and lessons. But the purpose is not specific traditions but rather specific doctrines.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

This issue for me gets me a little hot under the collar. I constantly have to take a deep breath when I think about it.

In our ward, our Deacons not only have to wear a white shirt and tie, but it is required they wear a suit jacket too. My son one Sunday, spilt something on his suit jacket prior to leaving. He didn't go up to pass the Sacrament because of this reason. Not enough Deacons showed up so he was asked to go help this one time, even if he did not have his jacket. Just prior to the meeting starting some more Deacons showed up and one was asked to take my son's place and my son asked to return to his seat. Boy, I was steaming that day.

I personally don't agree with white shirts etc as a requirement, but if that is how the Bishop wants to run things, then I'm not going to make a big stink of it. But I just think it is a shame that these type of situations happen, because of a cultural tradition. In fact, our ward was also admonished by the SP in one of our Sacrament meetings to let go of the traditions that our ward is heavily steeped in.

I remember reading an article from an Apostle, I believe Elder Packer, could be wrong though, who mentioned attending a ward where this was the case and he was concerned that the spirit of the sacrament would be lost.

White shirts isn't a cultural tradition, it has been specified by Prophets, Apostles, and GA's. Here is what is said in the Church Handbook:

Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church.

I see nothing wrong in pointing this out to your Bishop ... however some priesthood leaders may take this as a sign of rebellion, so judge for yourself.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I would have hoped that readers would recognize. . .

Traveler, do you realize how condescending this sounds? Surely that was not your intent, but that is the way it comes across. I saw different opinions in this thread, different points of view, and you with this statement you seem to sweep everyone into one camp...and that camp being lesser than your opinion. Again, I hope/believe that is not what you meant, but it is how it came across to me.

[Sali]

I remember reading an article from an Apostle, I believe Elder Packer, could be wrong though, who mentioned attending a ward where this was the case and he was concerned that the spirit of the sacrament would be lost.

White shirts isn't a cultural tradition, it has been specified by Prophets, Apostles, and GA's. Here is what is said in the Church Handbook:

I see nothing wrong in pointing this out to your Bishop ... however some priesthood leaders may take this as a sign of rebellion, so judge for yourself.

I have mentioned it to the Bishop. It's not going to change so I am not going to flog a dead horse to try and change it. All I can do is focus on how important the Sacrament is to me and let it go.

[Anddenex]

I have mentioned it to the Bishop. It's not going to change so I am not going to flog a dead horse to try and change it. All I can do is focus on how important the Sacrament is to me and let it go.

Yes. If you have mentioned it to your Bishop, then you are 100% correct, and there is no point to flogging a dead horse.

This can be very frustrating, especially since you have children who pass the sacrament.

[beefche]

Okay - I think we are loosing track of what is culture and what is doctrine. Obviously at the last supper when the sacrament was introduced - Jesus did not wear a white shirt and tie. And I doubt that anyone did for as long as the church remained prior to the Apostasy.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that most men didn't wear suit and ties until around the 20th century since they didn't exist before then. In fact, I don't think Joseph Smith wore a suit and tie. He probably wore a coat and cravat....

[Praetorian_Brow]

This discussion of culture versus doctrine seems illustrate who follows the letter of the law and who follows the spirit. While tradition is predictable, dependable and comfortable for most, however, it can also be stifling, rude, and silly. Doctrine, for the most part does not arrive by tradition, happenstance or because our grandparents did it, but seems to arrive with specifics that attempt to foster an objective and is essential to the foundation of the organization.

Confusing doctrine with tradition is where fault happens. Each ward, branch or family, has their unique traditions, whether its that Pew 1, is for the Jones, that doesn't mean that Bob, the investigator should be ostracized, because he had the ignorance, or the audacity to sit in their pew.

[Traveler]

I thought to give more opinion. Having traveled and experienced many cultures – I have become a great fan and student of cultures. I have also enjoyed some of the discussion here concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. But besides the appearance of being condescending – I believe the main point and concept of cultural traditions and doctrine has been mostly lost. To illustrate my thinking let us shift from our modern culture into which we are so imbedded to the ancient culture when Jesus waked in Judea. We have all heard the “doctrine” presented by Jesus of “the extra mile”.

Here is the verse in Mathew 5:41 “And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.”

What is the doctrine and what is the culture or tradition? Perhaps we can understand the doctrine by looking at the culture examples Jesus gives in the verses 38-42. But these are not really examples that map well in our culture and should we try to map the doctrine to our culture we can actually be misled and confused by the scripture. In essence we seem to enter a labyrinth of confusing ideas that just don’t make sense. Why is it confusing – or what am I talking about?

What did it mean to a Jew to be compelled to walk a mile? It is my understanding that according to Roman law – any Roman official or citizen that encountered a Jew while traveling could by law compel a Jew to carry their burden for a mile. This would require the Jew to abandon what-ever it was he was caring to assist the Roman. It most certainly meant that the possessions the Jew was transporting would be stolen – and often by the very Roman requiring the Jew to assist him for that mile. This is hardly the extra mile concept of which most of us are familiar.

Since Jesus is our example, under what condition are we compelled? Or should I ask – When was Jesus (unjustly) compelled? Keep in mind that Jesus is the all-powerful all-knowing G-d. How it is that such a being can tell us to understand something that he does not teach by his own example. So when was Jesus compelled to give (something unjust that should not have been required of him) that he gave more? When is G-d COMPELLED to do anything that he has given more? What divine doctrine is Jesus talking about? What is that actual doctrine and does that doctrine really have more relevance than a deacon being compelled to wear a white shirt and tie to pass the sacrament by his priesthood leaders?

Let us return to Jesus as he knelt in prayer in Gethsemane. He was innocent and being compelled to take upon him our sins. I believe the culture of the teaching of Jesus as imbedded in the symbol of the extra mile points directly at the doctrine of the atonement and sacrifice of Christ and that Jews by submitting to that culture injustice could experience and learn something of being a G-d and the doctrine of the atonement.

So – may I be so bold to ask – what is our Gethsemane? Where have we unjustly been compelled by our society or by our culture to do a thing that really should not be required of us? If we (or our son, or brother or friend) are compelled to officiate in the priesthood wearing a white shirt and tie – Is that our Gethsemane? Such a trivial thing? That we would make that our Gethsemane – or worse, a reason to reject a better thing?

How much do we desire to be born of G-d? To take upon us his name? To forgo our will and suffer at our Gethsemane?

The Traveler

[Praetorian_Brow]

I am not arguing against tradition, I am arguing that we need to recognize the difference and not make the mistake of thinking that tradition is as important as doctrine. Traditionally, most of us Mormons seem wary of outsiders and criticism. Based on doctrine, we are supposed to welcome all with open arms.

[Suzie]

How do individuals, how do you, distinguish between “culture traditions” and the doctrine of the church and kingdom?

Are there in the Scriptures? "Thou shall eat green jello" "Thou shall wear a white shirt" "Thou shall not grow a beard" "Thou shall have at least 5 children". That's basically how I see it and if in doubt, I research.

[kathysmike]

A few weeks ago my 15 year old son was unable to locate his tie before it was time to leave for church, I told him we would just have to leave without it. The Deacons Quorum President approached him and asked him to help pass, my tieless son looked to me I just shrugged my shoulders leaving it up to him, he moved up to the front to pass, much to my surprise my very wise bishop said nothing and allowed my son to pass the sacrament without a tie knowing that the chance for him to use his priesthood was more important than the idea or fact he was not sporting a tie.

[Traveler]

I am not arguing against tradition, I am arguing that we need to recognize the difference and not make the mistake of thinking that tradition is as important as doctrine. Traditionally, most of us Mormons seem wary of outsiders and criticism. Based on doctrine, we are supposed to welcome all with open arms.

Maybe the difference is not what is important but rather to elements that are common?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

A few weeks ago my 15 year old son was unable to locate his tie before it was time to leave for church, I told him we would just have to leave without it. The Deacons Quorum President approached him and asked him to help pass, my tieless son looked to me I just shrugged my shoulders leaving it up to him, he moved up to the front to pass, much to my surprise my very wise bishop said nothing and allowed my son to pass the sacrament without a tie knowing that the chance for him to use his priesthood was more important than the idea or fact he was not sporting a tie.

Not to criticize but I wonder. If you and your son had known that Jesus would have been present that that your son would have been passing the sacrament to him - would you and your son have taken more care and preparation concerning a tie?

My first mission president had a wonderful saying concerning priesthood service - "Your best is not good enough and good enough is not your best!"

The Traveler