What I will be focusing on today, in my favorite Sunday dress


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And a simple thing like wearing pants to church to show support for a cause can be blown out of proportion very easily. Today social networking is the norm; it allows us to communicate faster than before. When members of a group of like mind can find support for a cause, by bringing feelings and ideas together, with a very small action like wearing pants, how does that harm anyone? If most of the concerns are culture and policy issues and a common environment to get other members attention for them in a very simple way, is a Sacrament Meeting, then all power to them. I doubt very much that those who wore pants or purple to their wards disrupted anything spiritual. If anything, attendance may have gone up that one day and possibly woke up some members who may have not realized how unhappy some members are with the status quo. The "protest" as some like to call it, did not entail tantrums or screaming but simply the wearing of pants or purple. Change for good has to start somewhere and if this is one of the ways members are going to take notice, then it might as well start now. And then by the time your kids or grandkids are your age, it will be a non-issue and they will be wondering why grandma or grandpa had such strange ideas about what they deemed acceptable at a worship service.

M.

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I need to say more.

Maureen, I think it was really rotten of you to dig through the board and find a post I made during a really hard week for the purpose of attacking me with it. Other boards have rules against doing that. It was low and uncharitable. Life has been hard for me the last couple of years, and I reached out here for some encouragement. Now I don't feel safe doing that here, lest someone use it against me down the road.

Here's the difference: I was discouraged and I sought help with my feelings. I prayed about them. I talked to my companion and read the scriptures and words of the prophets about my role as a woman. I saw that I was lacking perspective and not looking at where my husband was struggling, too. I felt the love of my Heavenly Father for me as His daughter. I remembered some sweet experiences I've had that solidified my role as a woman and helpmeet. I humbled myself and saw that equality doesn't mean sameness. I didn't rally the troops and march into Sacrament meeting with a disgruntled heart because I was tired of dishes and diapers. I found truth and comfort in the teachings of the Gospel instead of attacking it.

Eowyn, I enjoy reading your posts on this board but I didn't take Maureen's post to you as an "attack". Personally I believe she was trying to make a point ("At the moment you wrote that, the feelings you were feeling in your situation did exist. So why do you think that other women in your church do not have similar feelings about their church position, about how they see culture and policy in their church, not equal between men and women? ") but you seem to have missed it completely. As a matter of fact (and with all due respect) I found that your accusations about her trying to illustrate a point as "low, rotten and uncharitable" were quite strong and borderline insulting.

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I think we cross posted, so I edited my post.

I really think that we (all of us, not just you and I) agree more than disagree, and a lot of this is misunderstanding.

Eowyn, I can't recall, but I think I am Yellow. Why do you ask?

I was just curious. You're trying really hard to help everyone see eye to eye and it popped in my mind. My thought patterns are random sometimes. :)

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And a simple thing like wearing pants to church to show support for a cause can be blown out of proportion very easily. Today social networking is the norm; it allows us to communicate faster than before. When members of a group of like mind can find support for a cause, by bringing feelings and ideas together, with a very small action like wearing pants, how does that harm anyone? If most of the concerns are culture and policy issues and a common environment to get other members attention for them in a very simple way, is a Sacrament Meeting, then all power to them. I doubt very much that those who wore pants or purple to their wards disrupted anything spiritual. If anything, attendance may have gone up that one day and possibly woke up some members who may have not realized how unhappy some members are with the status quo. The "protest" as some like to call it, did not entail tantrums or screaming but simply the wearing of pants or purple. Change for good has to start somewhere and if this is one of the ways members are going to take notice, then it might as well start now. And then by the time your kids or grandkids are your age, it will be a non-issue and they will be wondering why grandma or grandpa had such strange ideas about what they deemed acceptable at a worship service.

M.

This is an excellent post with a lot of truth in it, but I can't help but wonder if those who chose to wore pants in order to make a statement paid more attention to their "I wore pants to support a cause!" movements than to their own spiritualities and Sabbath experiences. Perhaps they didn't disturb anyone else (I personally pay very little attention to other's clothing) but was it beneficial to themselves?

Edited by Backroads
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Eowyn, I enjoy reading your posts on this board but I didn't take Maureen's post to you as an "attack". Personally I believe she was trying to make a point ("At the moment you wrote that, the feelings you were feeling in your situation did exist. So why do you think that other women in your church do not have similar feelings about their church position, about how they see culture and policy in their church, not equal between men and women? ") but you seem to have missed it completely. As a matter of fact (and with all due respect) I found that your accusations about her trying to illustrate a point as "low, rotten and uncharitable" were quite strong and borderline insulting.

Since we're focusing so much on feelings, I'll just say that it's certainly how it felt to me, to the point of shaking and being upset for upwards of an hour this morning. I've tried to clarify where I was coming from and further explain. I don't want to give it any more energy. If you feel that I've broken any rules, please report my post. Moderators stay out of decision making when they are the source of a reported post, so no worries there.

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I was just curious. You're trying really hard to help everyone see eye to eye and it popped in my mind. My thought patterns are random sometimes. :)

Ah, thanks!

And THANK YOU for understanding what I was trying to do--helping people understand one another--was/is my goal. I don't seem to be doing a very good job of it though. ;)

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Since we're focusing so much on feelings, I'll just say that it's certainly how it felt to me, to the point of shaking and being upset for upwards of an hour this morning. I've tried to clarify where I was coming from and further explain. I don't want to give it any more energy. If you feel that I've broken any rules, please report my post. Moderators stay out of decision making when they are the source of a reported post, so no worries there.

No Eowyn, it's not necessary. I just wanted to express how it felt to me. I'm sorry you felt attacked. I wish we could all discuss these issues face to face, the internet and writing makes sometimes things a little difficult.

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This is an excellent post with a lot of truth in it, but I can't help but wonder if those who chose to wore pants in order to make a statement paid more attention to their "I wore pants to support a cause!" movements than to their own spiritualities and Sabbath experiences. Perhaps they didn't disturb anyone else (I personally pay very little attention to other's clothing) but was it beneficial to themselves?

Perhaps those who wore pants or purple found their own spirituality while also trying to read how other members were taking it all in.

M.

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...So solidarity for what? To me it's going to church in a spirit of defiance, which doesn't scream solidarity to me. It's not about pants. I just wish y'all would say what you actually want, because you're protesting against something that doesn't exist....

My understanding is that the group who suggested the wearing of "pants and purple" wanted to get everyone's attention regarding some cultural and policy issues, that are not about doctrine, that should be addressed. Some things like what are women allowed to wear to church? Eowyn, from your quote above, why do you think this so called "protest" is about issues that don't exist.

M.

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Since we're focusing so much on feelings, I'll just say that it's certainly how it felt to me, to the point of shaking and being upset for upwards of an hour this morning. I've tried to clarify where I was coming from and further explain. I don't want to give it any more energy. If you feel that I've broken any rules, please report my post. Moderators stay out of decision making when they are the source of a reported post, so no worries there.

I thought Maureen's initial point was very well-made. However, being that she pulled up a post that you wrote in a very vulnerable moment, I completely understand your feelings on it. Even if you've moved on from that place in your life (which was only a few months ago), I'm sure it's easy to go back there when it's brought up again. I think if you had the benefit of third-person viewing, you wouldn't be so upset about it. But being a pretty emotionally sensitive person myself, I really understand taking it personally. And if my vocal agreement with Maureen contributed to your hour of anger, I apologize for that.

Separately, something occurred to me as I've read the last few pages. I agree with the idea that in-person conversation would probably be more effective, because it sounds like a lot of miscommunication about the same thing. And though there's been a lot of frustration and misunderstandings, I've also seen a lot of love in the last few pages. Yes, we should love people at church and in Sacrament meeting, regardless of what they -- or we -- are wearing. As anatess said, we also can and should love people outside of that environment, where it disrupts the Spirit less. However...if there are women in our ranks who are hurting because they feel wronged, do we know who they are? If they don't come to us and say, "I'm hurting," do we know they need the extra love? Most often, I doubt we will. Without saying a word, the show of wearing pants to church is a simple statement of, "I see you, I hear you," or maybe even, "I need you." And now we know.

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And a simple thing like wearing pants to church to show support for a cause can be blown out of proportion very easily. Today social networking is the norm; it allows us to communicate faster than before. When members of a group of like mind can find support for a cause, by bringing feelings and ideas together, with a very small action like wearing pants, how does that harm anyone? If most of the concerns are culture and policy issues and a common environment to get other members attention for them in a very simple way, is a Sacrament Meeting, then all power to them. I doubt very much that those who wore pants or purple to their wards disrupted anything spiritual. If anything, attendance may have gone up that one day and possibly woke up some members who may have not realized how unhappy some members are with the status quo. The "protest" as some like to call it, did not entail tantrums or screaming but simply the wearing of pants or purple. Change for good has to start somewhere and if this is one of the ways members are going to take notice, then it might as well start now. And then by the time your kids or grandkids are your age, it will be a non-issue and they will be wondering why grandma or grandpa had such strange ideas about what they deemed acceptable at a worship service.

M.

Maureen, you're Catholic right?

Here's an experience I had when I was Catholic in the Philippines. When I was a teenager, I wore a sleeveless shirt to Mass one day. When I reached the front of the line for Communion, the priest gave me the communion and asked me to see him after Church. He then told me I need to cover my shoulders at Church. No big deal.

Then one time, I wore a sleeveless outfit to school and forgot there was a Mass - so I went to Mass with it - and when I got to the front of the line, the priest touched my shoulder and didn't give me Communion. It was embarassing.

Was the priest right? I don't know.

But whether the priest was right or wrong, if I would have gathered all my classmates and told them to wear a sleeveless outfit for Mass next week, I would definitely be wrong. Not only will it give the priest some grief that will distract from the Mass, it will catch everyone else's attention and detract from the purpose of the Eucharist. I may still feel the spirit - I was the one protesting - but making others uncomfortable just so I can make a point is completely against the Charity exemplified by Jesus Christ. And to do this at Mass is just not acceptable.

What I could do is gather all my friends who feel the same way, discuss it in school, if not, then just walk over to the Rectory and ask to see the Priest so we can discuss it outside of Mass.

As it happened, I agreed to abide by the Priest's policy to show respect for the sanctity of the Eucharist by covering my shoulders. The Eucharist is greater than my comfort.

In an LDS ward, it is as easy to discuss these things outside of Sacrament Meeting as my Catholic school. Everybody within ward boundaries go to the same ward unlike Catholic Parishes where people tend to go to mass anywhere convenient. So that everybody that goes to that ward can discuss these things in all the other non-Sacrament, non-Sunday school settings and activities that are a constant occurence within ward families.

Edited by anatess
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A woman I know who was still a member but was struggling once said the being a woman in the LDS church sometimes felt like death by paper cuts. There were a lot of little things that made her feel unequal but taken alone they were all so small that if she pointed to any one of them she looked really petty. This was years ago that I talked to her and I wish I could remember what some of her specific issues were but I just can't. I can't say that I ever really felt unequal in the church but that doesn't mean I can't feel sympathy for those that do.

I also wore pants to church yesterday, although I do that every Sunday now and so do most of the women who attend the church I'm going to. The first time I attended a church in pants I could almost feel every Mormon woman in my family rolling over in their graves.

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This reminds me of a saying I once heard a Catholic friend of mine say, when she was sharing all the different walks of life that have found their path of faith in the Catholic church.

She said: "Here comes all of us"

I loved the image that immediately popped into my mind when she said that. A whole mob of people, of all different races, cultures, languages, political view points, traditional attire, etc. etc. all with eyes turned towards the Lord, walking towards His outstretched arms. It can be a struggle for the Church to figure out how to best reach out and serve people who are all so different, and sometimes we have to struggle against our "natural man" who would shy away from dealing with anything "different", or judge that that difference is "wrong" and something to be set aside if someone wants to be counted among the "faithful". But the Gospel is for all of them, and we need to stretch out our arms to them just as the Savior is. Even if they're feminist. Even if they're Democrat. Even if it's a woman coming to church in pants, or a man coming to church in a polo. The Gospel is there for all of them, and rather than judging them for their attire, we should rejoice that they are here.

Reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite children's books, Old Turtle and the Broken Truth.

"Remember this also, Little One. The Broken Truth, and life itself, will be mended only when one person meets another - someone from a different place or with a different face or different ways - and sees and hears herself. Only then will the people know that every person, every being, is important, and that the world was made for each of us."

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Perhaps those who wore pants or purple found their own spirituality while also trying to read how other members were taking it all in.

M.

Perhaps, though it seems one could simply quietly choose to wear pants or whatever without participating in an organized process. I know I for one would be more focused on my protest than anything else.

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Maureen, you're Catholic right?...

No, I am Lutheran, one of the "Protest"ants. :)

In an LDS ward, it is as easy to discuss these things outside of Sacrament Meeting as my Catholic school. Everybody within ward boundaries go to the same ward unlike Catholic Parishes where people tend to go to mass anywhere convenient. So that everybody that goes to that ward can discuss these things in all the other non-Sacrament, non-Sunday school settings and activities that are a constant occurence within ward families.

Have these issues been discussed outside of Sacrament Meeting then? Have members taken notice because of the issues being discussed? Has anything been accomplished at these meetings discussing these issues?

M.

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They're talking about fighting for more worship of Heavenly Mother . . .

Any thoughts of reaching out to traditional Christians of most denominations would be greatly sabatoged by this particular point...might win points with the most liberal denominations and with New Age types though. :cool:

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No, I am Lutheran, one of the "Protest"ants. :)

Have these issues been discussed outside of Sacrament Meeting then? Have members taken notice because of the issues being discussed? Has anything been accomplished at these meetings discussing these issues?

M.

My question is if the pants thing is really even an issue. While I know there were plenty of anectdotes, how common is it really for there to be a specified issue of the pants vs dress? How many women who had a specific incident involving pants at church took a moment to address it with the bishop or whomever outside of church? And how many women just have this trumped-up imagining of anti-pants members attacking them without any actual evidence? Now, I'm sure this answer varies ward to ward, but I think in general it's not the horror people might imagine it to be.

So, how often does anything need to be discussed?

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No, I am Lutheran, one of the "Protest"ants. :)

Have these issues been discussed outside of Sacrament Meeting then? Have members taken notice because of the issues being discussed? Has anything been accomplished at these meetings discussing these issues?

M.

We talk about these types of things a lot. Not the pants thing - nobody wears pants at my ward, not even the Youth - and nobody ever brought it up. Our discussions lately (usually happens when we have a bunch of us meet together) is on how the minority of women in our ward who votes Democrat can be made to feel united with everyone else. We have a woman who used to go to our ward but has since moved. She's a hairdresser so a lot of the women in our ward go to her. One of the members of our ward (who also has since moved to a different ward) basically verbally attacked her while she was getting her hair done! So we discussed that.

We've also had the discussion of how single women who go to our ward instead of the Singles Ward can be made to feel united with the RS lessons and activities that are usually about raising children and being a wife.

Our last meeting - we had a Primary Teachers meeting - and we ended up talking about racial differences experienced by Public School Teachers... something about black students in the inner cities and how some of our ward members who teach in the Public School System are trying to fight the feelings of racism they feel after their experiences with the horrors of predominantly black classes. It was a really eye-opening meeting. I couldn't imagine racism existing in our ward. But, there are actually some very real, loving, caring women, struggling with it. I mean - we weren't there to talk about Public Schools. We were meeting to discuss the 2013 Primary Curriculum. But we ended up talking it over.

They can get lively - these things. But, since we're usually having dinner together or having a social gathering, everybody is more open and willing to hear everyone else out.

Now doctrinal discussions - like Woman's role in the Priesthood - those are usually discussed in RS meetings or VT meetings or even RS activities. And yes, they can sometimes get lively as well. But during these meetings, we are always cognizant that we don't drive the Spirit away.

In any of these cases - when we discuss these things - it is not with a spirit of "protest" or "indignation" or "bucking the system" or any of that. It is simply filling a need to be heard and understood in the spirit of humility and charity.

Edited by anatess
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Anatess, I just caught up with this string, and this last post of yours gave me a better understanding than all the others. I kept thinking that if women were allowed to wear pants, but felt pressured not to, and personally thought it absurd to be looked down upon for not wearing a dress, how might this cultural bias be addressed? It helps to know there are venues where these conversations can take place. I agree with the majority here that the house of worship is no place for church culture protests.

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Anatess, I just caught up with this string, and this last post of yours gave me a better understanding than all the others. I kept thinking that if women were allowed to wear pants, but felt pressured not to, and personally thought it absurd to be looked down upon for not wearing a dress, how might this cultural bias be addressed? It helps to know there are venues where these conversations can take place. I agree with the majority here that the house of worship is no place for church culture protests.

That's really a cool thing about the LDS Church structure of ward and stakes. As a Catholic in the US, I don't know a lot of the people at Church. And if I don't attend Church for a month, the only reason people would wonder what's happened to me is because I missed choir practice. If I wasn't in the choir, it would probably go unnoticed or assumed that I just decided to attend another Mass schedule - because I do that a lot.

In a properly functioning LDS ward - (since everybody goes to one ward) - if you're absent, somebody is going to start wondering what's going on. And if you go through a period of doubt/depression/what-have-you somebody is bound to notice. A properly run VT and HT program would give opportunities for people who are struggling to express their concern to somebody who might listen and understand. That's why it is so difficult when a ward splits! Those relationships have been forged through the ward and it is always difficult to think that these relationships will still be there even when you find yourselves in different wards.

The only problem here is - not all wards are properly functioning wards and not all VT and HT programs are working as intended.

So, the solution to this problem is not All Enlisted. Far from it. The solution to this problem is working to make a ward, including the VT and HT programs functioning as intended. And this involves lot of love and charity and sacrifice and a lot less Self. A solution completely contrary to the principles invoked by All Enlisted.

Edited by anatess
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The wear pants day was extremely successful yesterday. There were several women who wore pants yesterday in my Ward.

Another group was suggesting a wear a dress day for all gay and transgender men who are members of the Church on 1-13-13. I have heard about it from several people but am unable to find a website yet that promotes it. Maybe they are still working on it. I know that a large percentage of openly gay members don't attend church, and in light of the church's new website, I think this would actually be a good way to get them and their freinds to at least attend church on that one day. So that members can show transgender and gays that they are welcome in church and can even now hold church callings, and enter the temple if they prepare to do so.

I look forward to the day when there will be an openly gay high councilman, mission president, temple president, or even general authority.

I know the goal lately since the new church website came out is that we need to make everyone feel comfortable in our church, but I think my wife and I would suddenly be the uncomfortable ones. I am considering skipping church on January 13th if I hear a lot of buzz about this in my ward My ward did have some of the pants wearers yesterday. I am concerned about my kids seeing what Reginald is describing above. We live in an area where I could really see this happening.

Edited by veryconservative
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My understanding is that the group who suggested the wearing of "pants and purple" wanted to get everyone's attention regarding some cultural and policy issues, that are not about doctrine, that should be addressed. Some things like what are women allowed to wear to church? Eowyn, from your quote above, why do you think this so called "protest" is about issues that don't exist.

M.

The wearing of pants had nothing to do with women being allowed to wear pants. It was a way of being able to show and protest the inequalities between the genders in the church. And again perceived inequalities.

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