Teachers and Firearms


Bini
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I was listening to the news the other night and they were talking to a company here in Utah that offered to provide free firearms training and concealed-carry classes to any teacher who wished to obtain them. I didn't catch the name of the company though.

There has never been any proposal to require teachers to have or possess a firearm. The proposal was for those teachers who wish to carry a firearm for which they already have a conceal-carry permit to be able to legally bring it to school. Of course, responsible use and storage would would need to be ensured, just as it would be anywhere else.

As for parents who don't want their children exposed to a teacher who carries a concealed firearm, they could put their children in a classroom clearly marked as gun-free so that criminals would know where to go without facing any opposition to their bad intentions. I like the idea of criminals not knowing if their intended targets might be armed and willing to fight back. Declaring an area to be gun-free merely means it's a potentially risk-free area for criminals to enjoy little resistance.

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Having worked extensively with police

Me too.

(Most cops are notoriously poor marksmen and have less training than many think).

I've spent the last 17 years shooting with them. Most are pretty good shots, a few are not. The training is not at a level I would like to see, but is far better then probably 99% of the population.

I don't know what officers you are spending time around, but that is not my experience with the vast majority of the ones I've been around.

So are we training them to "defend" themselves as civilians? Or are we training them to be gun and combat efficient like police officers and patrol guards?

Well trained civilians. That is what they would be.

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Question. This may veer off topic just slightly.

If a teacher opts to carry a gun and is granted permission from the school to do so, what options and or rights do parents that oppose this have (assuming homeschool is not feasible)? Does the teacher's right to bare arms trump those of parents and children not-in-favour of it? What I am wondering, is how would a sensitive situation like this be addressed? Would these children be transferred to another class? Another school? I know how those school boundaries can get testy.

Also, I'm still interested in any ideas on how situations in my original post would be handled. Any ideas? Like I said, I'm not necessarily opposed but it does concern me.

Absolutely. Just as the teacher's right to have an interracial marriage, or be Mormon, or anything similar. Such things are no one else's business. As far as I'm concerned, when I'm carrying, it's no more anyone's business whether or not I have a gun than is my religion, and they have no more moral right to try to stop me from having the means to defend myself than they have to prevent me from worshiping as I please.

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Israel has teachers carry, they don't have teachers killing people, and there's almost no school violence there.

99% of the fears and objections are unfounded, and have proven such in areas where such things have been tried. As far as I'm concerned, the "gun free zone" is more of a lunatic protection zone. Teachers who can qualify for a concealed carry license in their state should be able to carry in school. Other private property, public places (malls, businesses etc) should have to post prominently that guns are off limits, and agree that if anyone goes on a killing spree there and someone there says they would have been armed and would have been able to stop the rampage had they been allowed to carry, the owner has to prove that the person couldn't have been able to stop the rampage, or will be held financial liable. I understand that some states have actually passed such laws.

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Just seems to be too many variables that could go wrong with arming teachers. That's why I made note of utilising security guards and maybe a checkpoint entry - no one enters except through that checkpoint with valid ID. It's an alternative, at least.

The best idea i've seen/heard so far is having a closed school that has a well done entry and checking system, and one that is able to track visitors while they are within the school boundaries. Still even to convert to that is pretty expensive, enough to give folks second thoughts.

But the hard truth is, is that our societal structure is very very open and generally our architecture and design follow that premise, and no matter how much protection a gun or anything else may afford there are going to be large gaps that can be exploited by someone who takes the time to do a little study and planning if they so wish. We really aren't geared for or prepared in anti-terrorist tactic, response, and preparedness.

I'd wager that the cry for having more arms and armed personnel will end up being more comfort than actual efficiency.

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Absolutely. Just as the teacher's right to have an interracial marriage, or be Mormon, or anything similar. Such things are no one else's business. As far as I'm concerned, when I'm carrying, it's no more anyone's business whether or not I have a gun than is my religion, and they have no more moral right to try to stop me from having the means to defend myself than they have to prevent me from worshiping as I please.

Teachers have a right to defend themselves, however depending on legislation and contract wording they may not have the right to carry a weapon upon school property.. and as such having the choice to use a weapon in said defense may vary.

How the school wants behavior to be conducted is the school's business. if a teacher does not agree with it then they should find employment at another school that they do agree with.

If that school's behavior crosses over into criminal behavior then the teacher may have legitimate grounds to take it to court.

Every time we sign a contract we give up rights to certain things.

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I decided to start a new discussion out of respect for the other thread.

With everything that has happened, and the possibility that it could happen again, would you vote YES to arming school teachers with guns?

I would vote "YES" for teachers having the option to obtain a concealed carriers permit, and to be allowed to bear arms at school.

Some thoughts of my own. I'm not opposed to firearms on bodies of trained and registered persons, however, I do have some concerns with the entire faculty being armed.

May I ask Bini for clarification? Ha... it appears I am asking any way :)

In the first sentence you declare you are open to firearms carried by "trained and registered persons", followed by a negative toward an entire faculty of teachers.

What if the entire faculty of teachers were "trained and registered" as others have suggested?

I personally feel children would only be safe if all teachers were to carry a firearm. If only a select few, then it would be a game of chance. If the perp entered a room with a teacher -- registered and trained -- then there is a possibility lives would be saved. However, if the perp entered a room -- unarmed teacher -- then blood would be spilt and the closest person may be next door or across the hall. If across the hall, how quickly would they be able to respond.

I would clarify, the idea of people carrying guns will not negate the blood lust and the ability for someone to kill. The chances are, even if teachers carried guns, some lives would be lost. However, how many lives would be lost is the question, at least to me.

If one life was spared due to a -- registered and trained - teacher with a firearm than that is sufficient for me.

For example, where would a firearm be stored when a teacher needs to remove it (whether it be during a P.E exercise or going on a field trip where weapons are prohibited)? Is a designated safe, "safe enough", from students?

It would need to be stored on them like any other concealed carry permit, or any other police officer. A gun in a desk, locked desk -- trying to find the key in a scary predicament will be cumbersome.

If a weapon is on a teacher, then the children, students, will need to receive instruction and training and be made aware as to why they see teachers with guns.

NOTE: I agree JAG, I am against forcing any teacher to carry a gun who doesn't want to. This must be a personal choice, no compulsory means.

Secondly, in the event that a psychopath trespasses onto school grounds and starts shooting, what happens if the teacher freezes and or is injured, and a student decides to be a hero and use the gun himself? It's a possible scenario that could cause more chaos and more fatalities..

Unfortunately, even registered and trained gunman freeze when a scenario is no longer "role play."

Should this happen, and a child picks up the gun, I would have no problem with a child picking up the gun, if they know how to use it.

If we use "What if" as our debating force, then we must recognize that some children are actually taught how to use a gun, and use it well. Thus, "what if" it was a child who knew how to use it, and gunned down the psychopath?

I'm not necessarily against firearms on school grounds. Every private school that I attended overseas was walled and gated. We had armed security guards that patrolled the premises. Parents could not enter without providing valid identification. I'm wondering if something like this might be more affective, rather than having teachers packing heat in the hallways? I realise that most public schools are not walled and gated but an officer or two could still patrol the grounds..

My only question, is how often do we see people rob banks and other places even with armed security guards? Although a security guard is nice they do give us a false sense of security. We are more secure, in my opinion, to be armed ourselves.

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Question. This may veer off topic just slightly.

If a teacher opts to carry a gun and is granted permission from the school to do so, what options and or rights do parents that oppose this have (assuming homeschool is not feasible)? Does the teacher's right to bare arms trump those of parents and children not-in-favour of it? What I am wondering, is how would a sensitive situation like this be addressed? Would these children be transferred to another class? Another school? I know how those school boundaries can get testy.

Also, I'm still interested in any ideas on how situations in my original post would be handled. Any ideas? Like I said, I'm not necessarily opposed but it does concern me.

What right do you have to deny another of their 2nd Amendment Rights?

Your rights end where mine begin and vice-versa.

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Israel has teachers carry, they don't have teachers killing people, and there's almost no school violence there.

Israel requires every adult to serve time (I believe it's two years) in the army, it's a little bit different than civilians who've only had a gun safety class and a few hours at the shooting range.

I'm disappointed in this suggestion honestly. This is how we plan to make our kids schools safer? By reenacting the wild west in their study halls? We now expect teachers to be part time commandos as well as teachers? Why don't we just issue each student a hand grenade at the beginning of the year, then they'll really be safe.

OK yes that last part was over the top and I want our kids to be safe just as much as the next person but I just don't see this actually keeping them safer. All I see is a million and one different ways that this can go wrong and if I found out that my (hypothetical) kids school was arming it's teachers I'd pull them out of that school in a heartbeat. I'd quit my job and home school them if I had too (and I am not a fan of homeschooling).

I personally would rather talk about ways to improve the shockingly bad state of mental health care in America or finding ways to improve security in schools that don't include expecting our teachers to play Rambo but that's just me.

Edited by ploomf
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Im all for it.In fact I would like to be the one with the gun.I work in a school in the front office. If not guns what about stun guns to stop them.

Stun guns (pardon the pun) are a hit-or-miss proposition.

Improperly used, they can be fatal- or worse- ineffective.

They can be overcome, they are (psychologically) easy to abuse, and they can be fatal if misused.

Finally, they are no match for a real firearm in terms of range or effectiveness.

Here is one link citing some of the issues:

Taser safety issues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I think we may be missing the forrest for the trees. The central issue here, to me at least, isn't teacher requirements for training, or what funding or programs or whatnot. The concept of the "gun free zone" is the central issue. The idea that you can hang a sign and pass a law saying 'no guns allowed here' is deeply flawed to the point of being absurd. By definition, law-abiding people abide the law and law-breaking people break the law. So, by definition, all gun free zones do, is disarm the law-abiding.

Now, here's the clincher: With only one exception, every single mass-shooting in the U.S. since 1950 has taken place in a gun free zone. (Mass shooting defined as 3-4 more people killed, and "gun-free-zone" defined as a location either posting a sign or having a no-gun law in effect, or both.)

Scan your memory to verify this is true. Newtown Connecticut. Aurora theater. Sikh Temple. Maj. Hasaan at the Military base. Virginia Tech. Columbine.

We get so involved in talking about the hows and whys of a schoolteacher packing heat, that we forget that just by taking the gun-free zone away, we've upped the chances that bad guys will go somewhere else for their violent moment of glory. If you harden a target, other targets look more appealing.

No matter what particular solution you are in favor of, or opposed to, consider this: The next time you walk past a sign that says "Firearms are not permitted on these premises", or "No guns allowed", or "The carry of dangerous weapons in this establishment is not permitted" or "No weapons allowed per federal law" or whatever, remember what the research shows. With only one exception, every single mass-shooting in the U.S. since 1950 has taken place in a gun free zone.

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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I was only made aware of Utah's concealed carry laws for public school campuses two days ago when a high school teacher I was talking to happened to mention that he usually carried a hand gun--including while teaching. My biggest concern for him was not so much a gun accident but someone catching a glimpse of it and causing a huge uproar.

This thread has been an interesting read. I'll admit, guns make me nervous, but I'm for limited gun control at the most, believing that proper education and training are the best ways to go about things. There are plenty of other crazy things getting people killed that I don't understand why guns are selected for picking on.

But back to schools... while I wouldn't make too much fuss about some regulation declaring that all or even a selection of school staff and faculty members be armed, I don't know if it would I would call it necessary. Yes, the few times we prevent another Sandy Hook (and yes, I believe it would be only a few times if that due to just how rare such violence is) might not be worth the risk and at the very least perceived risk of having guns frequent on school campuses.

If such legislation were to come about, I would expect intense training for all those told to be armed. Until then, I'd be happy with the allowance of concealed carry.

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I appreciate all the feedback thus far. I am using a tablet so out of convenience I'll be addressing some comments as a whole and not quote by quote.

Anddenex, my OP was stressing my concern regarding what kind of training and to what degree teachers will be required in order to carry a gun on school premises. As I voiced earlier (and I appreciate the input already on it), will teachers undergo training as intense as police officers, SWAT, etc? Or, just your average training as a civilian trying to defend themselves?

I wanted to clarify - I never said that anyone was advocating that teachers be FORCED to carry lethal weapons - I just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. This was not mentioned in my OP at all. I wanted to hear some insights on how certain things will be carried out in schools ALLOWING teachers to carry guns, and whether or not you'd be in favour of it.

How old do you have to be to apply for a gun and become registered? 18? Would it be acceptable for an 18-year old high school student to wear his gun to school amongst his peers? If so, are there any possible concerns with this?

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I am for teachers carrying weapons if they want to. People with plans to commit mass murder would rather go where they know no one can protect themselves, so I would like them to at least question, "Does someone in there have a gun?"

There was also a teacher who was being stalked and was killed in front of her school. She wasn't allowed to carry a weapon there even though her life was being threatened.

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Realizing how emotive this discussion is in the US, I was loathe to get involved. However someone listed Isreal as an example, so I will point out Australia as a counter example. We had 4 major massacre leading up to the Port Arthur one. At that point the government (a conservative one) stepped in and banned all semi-automatic, automatic and greatly strengthened the gun laws. We have not had a single massacre (4 or more people) in the last 16 years.

However given how well permeated the US is with weaponry, I don't see this as an option. I don't see how your society could be disarmed of all military style weapons. If I lived in the US I think I would want my boys in a school with a very secure boundary and a well defended and secure entry point.

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I decided to start a new discussion out of respect for the other thread.

With everything that has happened, and the possibility that it could happen again, would you vote YES to arming school teachers with guns?

Some thoughts of my own. I'm not opposed to firearms on bodies of trained and registered persons, however, I do have some concerns with the entire faculty being armed. For example, where would a firearm be stored when a teacher needs to remove it (whether it be during a P.E exercise or going on a field trip where weapons are prohibited)? Is a designated safe, "safe enough", from students?

Secondly, in the event that a psychopath trespasses onto school grounds and starts shooting, what happens if the teacher freezes and or is injured, and a student decides to be a hero and use the gun himself? It's a possible scenario that could cause more chaos and more fatalities..

I'm not necessarily against firearms on school grounds. Every private school that I attended overseas was walled and gated. We had armed security guards that patrolled the premises. Parents could not enter without providing valid identification. I'm wondering if something like this might be more affective, rather than having teachers packing heat in the hallways? I realise that most public schools are not walled and gated but an officer or two could still patrol the grounds..

Only for ex-military or ex-cops...I am both, just having a gun does not mean you will be able to use it.
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If a teacher opts to carry a gun and is granted permission from the school to do so, what options and or rights do parents that oppose this have (assuming homeschool is not feasible)? Does the teacher's right to bare arms trump those of parents and children not-in-favour of it?

As a parent, I apparently have no right to know that teachers are giving condoms to my boys, or abortion provider information to my girls. So why on earth would I have the right to know whether a person wholly unconnected to me, who happens to be on campus, is packing heat on a given day?

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I am against arming teachers who do not want to be armed. That said: On NPR the other day they were saying that Utah is one of only two states that allow teachers with concealed carry permits to carry on campus; and I'm not aware that it's ever been a problem here.

Lemme say this, no one knows where someone who has a CC is carrying. Yeah, the campus might say no weapons, but why should any CC licensee disarm him/herself in the name of becoming a victim? It's the same thing for criminals - ok, so you put a sign up saying no weapons on campus. Do people honestly think that stops CRIMINALS from doing what they are going to do?

I know that people with a CC license are less likely to use the weapon to commit crimes, etc. I will admit that carrying a weapon into a no-carry zone is probably some kind of crime, however, as the saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I refuse to make myself a victim because some liberal who won't defend him/herself (but can call the police and have some other mother's son put himself in danger) thinks that by putting up a sign, we've stopped the crime.

I'm from DC. Tons of gun-related violence in a very gun-controlled town. I hear the same thing happens in Chicago. I say arm those teachers who want to be armed, are trained, and have the intestinal fortitude it will take to use the weapon if it comes to that. Someone who is afraid to use a weapon is as useless as being unarmed. If teachers aren't willing to do this (and I'm not saying that all should), then put our unemployed returned vets to work guarding the schools.

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My view on this is that armed guards are a huge asset to schools. In the part of Tennessee we lived in the county provides armed "resource officers" at each school. Last year a man walked into my son's high school with two guns, intending to shoot a faculty member. The school officer stopped him and eventually had to shoot and kill him. Without that officer, it would likely have been a national news story instead of a local item. Even one case of an officer stopping a threat makes his or her presence worth it to me.

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I grew up in South Texas (Rio Grande Valley), and in 1989, there was a major kerfuffle surrounding the border, drug gangs, and an alleged "cult killing"- one of the local drug chieftains in Mexico kidnapped and hacked up an American tourist.

Adolfo de Jesús CONSTANZO - Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Somehow or another, the rumors were flying that he and his associates were looking for more victims- preferably children- and as a result, the local cops posted to the various schools just in case.

Our high school got the (false) word that the suspect was holed up in a farm house about twenty miles away, and that backup was needed immediately- but there simply weren't enough cops to cover all the bases.

This was right at the beginning of deer season, and our principal solved the dilemma by grabbing six of the varsity football team (young men he'd known all their lives) and sent them out to the cars and trucks (parked in the school parking lot) to grab their deer rifles.

No one blinked twice.

Problem solved.

We had guns in our homes, in our vehicles, and on campus.

And we didn't have psychos shooting up our schools either.

Edited by selek
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