Conceal-carry permit frenzy


NeuroTypical
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I keep hearing on the news how permit applications are skyrocketing, and just encountered it with folks I know. A random sister in my ward wondered on Facebook if anyone was interested in taking a CCW class with her. She said if she could get 4-5 other people they could do their own class, and it would be fun with friends.

In under two hours, it looks like she's found over a dozen different ladies in and out of the ward taking her up on the offer. Good for them. I don't know if this is a mother of children thing, a mormon thing, a "we live an hour away from Arvada" thing, or a combination of all three.

Is anyone else out there noticing friends/family/neighbors/ward members getting permits or otherwise getting more serious about self-defense?

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I keep hearing on the news how permit applications are skyrocketing, and just encountered it with folks I know. A random sister in my ward wondered on Facebook if anyone was interested in taking a CCW class with her. She said if she could get 4-5 other people they could do their own class, and it would be fun with friends.

In under two hours, it looks like she's found over a dozen different ladies in and out of the ward taking her up on the offer. Good for them. I don't know if this is a mother of children thing, a mormon thing, a "we live an hour away from Arvada" thing, or a combination of all three.

Is anyone else out there noticing friends/family/neighbors/ward members getting permits or otherwise getting more serious about self-defense?

If this is true - it concerns me. My experience in life is that an emotional decision or rush to do anything - especially motivated by fear, seldom ends well.

The Traveler

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My son just got his - I'm a little ticked because we were supposed to go to the class together and he just went off on his own. He had a CCL where we used to live and last year the law changed here, he's just been too occupied to go to the required class until now. The class isn't offered all the time, so I'm not sure when I can get mine, but anyway -

I think for many people, it's not a quick emotional decision. You're either a CC type or not. What has made the difference is the election and the concern that things may go 'pear shaped' as the Brits say, before you know it. Better to get the permit now, rather than sit on the decision any longer.

Personally, it's not an Obama thing. It's a self protection issue. There's a lot of reasons to have the license in a big city, but there are also reasons to have one in a small town with a limited police force.

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If this is true - it concerns me. My experience in life is that an emotional decision or rush to do anything - especially motivated by fear, seldom ends well.

Well, I would tend to agree of course, especially concerning a decision like getting a firearm. But I'm wondering why you'd assume the sudden rush is emotionally driven. Watching that Facebook thread, I don't detect any fear, or much emotion besides maybe a little excitement. I remember when I got my permit all those years ago, it was a rather weighty decision - is somberness an emotion?

There have been umpteen media accounts of shootings. Carrying firearms is being debated nationally. Maybe some folks have been thinking about it for a while, or are seriously examining the option and deciding to pursue it...

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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I heard some city was offering to do one, and I heard something about a $50 gift card in exchange. I have no problem with some government entity offering to buy guns from people who want to get rid of them. I don't really think it will do anything to lower cases of violent crime though. If someone figures out they shouldn't own a firearm, it might prevent some accident or theft or something.

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I heard some city was offering to do one, and I heard something about a $50 gift card in exchange. I have no problem with some government entity offering to buy guns from people who want to get rid of them. I don't really think it will do anything to lower cases of violent crime though. If someone figures out they shouldn't own a firearm, it might prevent some accident or theft or something.

I agree with this assessment. And maybe it will help reduce household accidents and or theft of firearms not securely stored.

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I heard some city was offering to do one, and I heard something about a $50 gift card in exchange. I have no problem with some government entity offering to buy guns from people who want to get rid of them. I don't really think it will do anything to lower cases of violent crime though. If someone figures out they shouldn't own a firearm, it might prevent some accident or theft or something.

Gun buybacks are usually not a good thing. First they're using my tax money to pay for it, and I have a problem with that, but they also offer a no questions asked way to dispose of a gun. While it can't be proven it is almost a forgone conclusion that a number of crime guns have been disposed of at such an event. There's also the problem of older people having no idea what they have turning in a $10,000 gun for $50.

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Gun buybacks are usually not a good thing. First they're using my tax money to pay for it, and I have a problem with that, but they also offer a no questions asked way to dispose of a gun. While it can't be proven it is almost a forgone conclusion that a number of crime guns have been disposed of at such an event. There's also the problem of older people having no idea what they have turning in a $10,000 gun for $50.

It's just an incentive for those that have guns that DON'T want them. I think it's a decent idea to remove those guns in a quick and easy process (seemingly no hassle), versus, having those guns continue to sit around without any intentions of ever handling them (which potentially is an accident waiting to happen). People aren't forced to do this, it's an option, a convenient one. If someone would like to resell their firearm for more money, they may do so elsewhere. Again, regarding this while gun debate, there will never be a solution that everyone will applaud but I don't feel this is the worst of them. If it does SOME good in removing firearms from those NOT wanting to use them - hip hip hooray. Let them be responsible and turn them in. If it's about the money, there are other selling options.

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Well, I would tend to agree of course, especially concerning a decision like getting a firearm. But I'm wondering why you'd assume the sudden rush is emotionally driven. Watching that Facebook thread, I don't detect any fear, or much emotion besides maybe a little excitement. I remember when I got my permit all those years ago, it was a rather weighty decision - is somberness an emotion?

There have been umpteen media accounts of shootings. Carrying firearms is being debated nationally. Maybe some folks have been thinking about it for a while, or are seriously examining the option and deciding to pursue it...

I agree - somewhat. At one time of my life I thought it would be a good idea to be trained for combat situations especially for defensive purposes. The one thing I did learn while serving in the military is that the concept or idea or carrying a gun for protection can be naive and foolish. Let me put this a different way. Carrying a gun for protection means that you have already made the decision to kill someone and now you are just waiting for the opportunity.

If a person is not willing to pull the trigger and kill someone - thinking that carrying and the threat is enough - that to me is the naive and foolish part. The other sad part is that I have never talked to anyone that has faced the conundrum and pulled the trigger killing an assailant that is glad they had the experience and are looking forward to the next opportunity. My father once said, "Before you start down a path you better make sure you desire and are ready to go where that path is leading."

The other notion is that killing is an adrenaline rush that can be addictive. I quit hunting because it became too much fun. It is possible that the decision to carry is - as the scriptures say - a two edged sword.

The Traveler

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Carrying a gun for protection means that you have already made the decision to kill someone and now you are just waiting for the opportunity.

I don't think this is the only reason a person makes when deciding to protect themselves. People who carry guns aren't just waiting to kill people, however they are willing to protect themselves should the need arise.

Killing an individual is the last mode of defense, when other opportunities have been exhausted.

I have other friends who have concealed carry permits who are not waiting for the opportunity to kill someone.

I watched a man, vie news, who had a concealed carry permit. The man was hit, and also shot by the robber. The guy had his gun, and attempted to reach for a couple times but decided not to. The young man was 17.

When asked why he didn't shoot back, he replied something to this nature, "My life wasn't threatened enough for me to end this young man's life." This was also after the young man shot him in the leg.

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I don't think this is the only reason a person makes when deciding to protect themselves. People who carry guns aren't just waiting to kill people, however they are willing to protect themselves should the need arise.

Killing an individual is the last mode of defense, when other opportunities have been exhausted.

I have other friends who have concealed carry permits who are not waiting for the opportunity to kill someone.

I watched a man, vie news, who had a concealed carry permit. The man was hit, and also shot by the robber. The guy had his gun, and attempted to reach for a couple times but decided not to. The young man was 17.

When asked why he didn't shoot back, he replied something to this nature, "My life wasn't threatened enough for me to end this young man's life." This was also after the young man shot him in the leg.

This story rubs me the wrong way.

I'm still partial to this whole gun debate but I do understand points from both sides. That said, if I were in that situation and got shot, you better believe that I'd be defending myself. How bad does a bullet wound have to be for you to make a decision whether or not your life is worth defending (and perhaps those of your family as well)?

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This story rubs me the wrong way.

I'm still partial to this whole gun debate but I do understand points from both sides. That said, if I were in that situation and got shot, you better believe that I'd be defending myself. How bad does a bullet wound have to be for you to make a decision whether or not your life is worth defending (and perhaps those of your family as well)?

I agree with you Bini, and I, myself, probably would have defended myself by drawing my gun.

However, I do like this story also, because it relays to individuals that we carry a gun to protect ourselves, and it is up to each individual to decide when their life is threatened.

As, for this older man, he didn't feel his life was threatened enough to end a 17 year olds life. I commend him for his personal choice.

EDIT: This story is also good for debate when people try to say people who have a concealed carry permit are just trigger happy and waiting for the opportunity to kill someone. This isn't so.

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I don't think this is the only reason a person makes when deciding to protect themselves. People who carry guns aren't just waiting to kill people, however they are willing to protect themselves should the need arise.

Killing an individual is the last mode of defense, when other opportunities have been exhausted.

I have other friends who have concealed carry permits who are not waiting for the opportunity to kill someone.

I watched a man, vie news, who had a concealed carry permit. The man was hit, and also shot by the robber. The guy had his gun, and attempted to reach for a couple times but decided not to. The young man was 17.

When asked why he didn't shoot back, he replied something to this nature, "My life wasn't threatened enough for me to end this young man's life." This was also after the young man shot him in the leg.

This story is not uncommon - I have heard it before (in fact many times), even in the military under combat situations (fire fight). Obviously the purpose to carry in your example was not for protection - the fact that they were shot and still thought they were not in danger indicates to me the person is naive.

To me it is like a family with a two year supply of food for emergencies. But having experiences several emergencies and never using their emergency supplies they end up starving to death (or just suffering malnutrition) thinking the emergencies are not bad enough yet. Which is in essence the other extreme.

The Traveler

PS. The last mode of defense is not killing someone it is getting killed.

Edited by Traveler
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Traveller, Anddenex, great posts. Many similar weighty thoughts have run through my mind over the last several years.

I decided early on that I'd rather give up my wallet than draw. I'm almost about half-convinced that I'd take a halfway-serious beating rather than draw. But a main reason I carry, is my wife and I helped put a guy behind bars for 5-life, and he may come for payback some day, and I can only assume he'd intend more than a serious beating for me and my family. (That, and I live out in the middle of nowhere and need something to scare away bears and coyotes.)

I've read many accounts from people in life-threatening situations, and they tend to be wide and diverse. There are accounts of the spirit directing actions. There are accounts of confident action, no time to think, and regret. Lots of accounts of long bouts of sleepless nights, years of lawsuits and second guessing, lots of wondering if they did the right thing. It's not a matter to be taken lightly.

But then again, we have over 20 years of good data and studies of permit holders. I assume there are frivolous or immature carriers, yet a permit holder is less-likely to be involved in violent crime, unjust use of force, or gun accidents, than their non-carrying peer demographic.

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the fact that they were shot and still thought they were not in danger indicates to me the person is naive.

Although I understand your point, are they naive or just stronger in character?

Naive? Or he recognized, in this situation, his life truly wasn't in danger?

He personally chose to spare a teenager's life, at the expense of his own pain. I definitely don't see sparing a person's life as naive, especially if it is within an individuals right to put him down.

EDIT: I didn't see your PS until now. You and I have a different understanding then regarding defense. Since I love the sport basketball, and it is the sport I play, your reference to last mode of defense would be similar to someone saying in basketball, "The last mode of defense is when the opponent makes a basket." This isn't correct. If an opponent scores a basket, it means the defense failed. If a person gets killed then they failed in their attempt to defend, if they used any at all.

Edited by Anddenex
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It's just an incentive for those that have guns that DON'T want them. I think it's a decent idea to remove those guns in a quick and easy process (seemingly no hassle), versus, having those guns continue to sit around without any intentions of ever handling them (which potentially is an accident waiting to happen). People aren't forced to do this, it's an option, a convenient one. If someone would like to resell their firearm for more money, they may do so elsewhere. Again, regarding this while gun debate, there will never be a solution that everyone will applaud but I don't feel this is the worst of them. If it does SOME good in removing firearms from those NOT wanting to use them - hip hip hooray. Let them be responsible and turn them in. If it's about the money, there are other selling options.

They don't tell them. Valuable antique weapons are turned over for $50 or $100, usually by elderly women on fixed incomes. If that happened anywhere but by some "enlightened" program, it would be fraud. There should at least have to be an expert at every gun buyback to tell a person that it would be far better for them if they went to a gun shop and sold a gun rather than turning it over for a pittance and destruction.

The worse problem however is that gun buybacks create an easy means to dispose of evidence in criminal activity. Kill someone, take the murder weapon to a gun buyback. It gets destroyed and you get off scott free.

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