differential requirements for salvation?

[searching_questioner]

I’m currently pondering the possibility that the requirements for salvation, or the difficulties involved in obtaining salvation, are not equal for all people. On us is laid the requirement that we do family history work and perform the saving temple ordinances for our family. It is difficult to see how obedience to this commandment could be expected of people who lived in times and cultures where there was no tradition, or no means of, preserving family histories. Does our salvation depend on obedience to commandments that others did not have to obey?

[skippy740]

Today, we are living in what we call the "dispensation of the fullness of times". All things that were past are now restored for the last days.

So, your assessment is correct: it is not equal for all people.

Where much has been given, much is expected and required. Today, we are asked (commanded) to participate in missionary work, live up to the letter and spirit of the commandments and do the temple work for our ancestors who have passed away.

Now, for those cultures who didn't keep records... we are told that during the Millenium, the records will be made available through heavenly messengers. Whether we do it before or during the Millenium... it will get done.

Gospel Principles Chapter 45: The Millennium

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)

[searching_questioner]

Can we draw any conclusions about this apparent difference in the requirements for salvation? One possibility is that you set the standard higher for those better able to meet the standard and a lower standard for those not able to meet the higher standard. If we, that is, those who live today, are working to a higher standard than those who lived before, it suggests a qualitative difference between us and them.

[pam]

Can we draw any conclusions about this apparent difference in the requirements for salvation? One possibility is that you set the standard higher for those better able to meet the standard and a lower standard for those not able to meet the higher standard. If we, that is, those who live today, are working to a higher standard than those who lived before, it suggests a qualitative difference between us and them.

How do we know that the standard is lower? Perhaps those that passed away in much earlier times have been given the responsibility to teach those and prepare them to accept the work that is being done for them in the temple? I think all have been given a responsibility. Perhaps because we now have the technology and the temples to perform and do much it would seem our responsibility is much higher, but there still has to be someone preparing those for these ordinances.

[searching_questioner]

Hi Pam, there may be some truth in what you are suggesting but I think doing the family history work for all who have come before us would be a much tougher task, and therefore a higher standard, than teaching the gospel to those who have already passed into the spirit world. I also suspect that the majority of those doing the preparing, or those taking a lead role in the preparing, are more likely to have come from those who had the gospel in mortality, and therefore already living the higher standard.

[pam]

Hi Pam, there may be some truth in what you are suggesting but I think doing the family history work for all who have come before us would be a much tougher task, and therefore a higher standard, than teaching the gospel to those who have already passed into the spirit world. I also suspect that the majority of those doing the preparing, or those taking a lead role in the preparing, are more likely to have come from those who had the gospel in mortality, and therefore already living the higher standard.

I'm not so sure that only those that had the gospel in mortality would be assigned this task. I believe it could also be those not born or living while the gospel was on the earth..but have been taught and accepted and now tasked with teaching others. I have no doctrinal reference it is just my opinion.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I’m currently pondering the possibility that the requirements for salvation, or the difficulties involved in obtaining salvation, are not equal for all people. On us is laid the requirement that we do family history work and perform the saving temple ordinances for our family. It is difficult to see how obedience to this commandment could be expected of people who lived in times and cultures where there was no tradition, or no means of, preserving family histories. Does our salvation depend on obedience to commandments that others did not have to obey?

Yes, D&C 82; " 3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."

And at the same time Elder Christofferson said; "“… Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

“But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:28, 34–35; see also verses 17–24).

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

“And they [who accompanied Peter] were astonished … because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

“… Then answered Peter,

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” (Acts 10:44–47).

By this experience and revelation to Peter, the Lord modified the practice of the Church and revealed a more complete doctrinal understanding to His disciples. And so the preaching of the gospel expanded to encompass all mankind."

In other words, the gospel is for all mankind. I am sure that anyone who is accepting of the gospel whether in this life or the next will have opportunity to express their acceptance of all the principles of it, in some way or another. God is no respecter of persons, meaning everyone will have a chance to receive the gospel in it's fullness.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I would agree with your statement generally, however there is a danger in assuming earlier dispensations were easier to live in. Every generation of mankind has had its share of challenges, and ours is certainly no different. At the same time, there are a lot of challenges previous generations had to face that simply aren't problems for us today.

A prime example would be immediately after Christ's resurrection. Think of how simple it is today for Pres. Monson, should he decide it were needed, to call a stake president on the phone in Poland. Think of General Conference and the mulitiple ways it has been made available world-wide.

Set that against the challenges that Peter and the rest of the 12 faced in this same area. Think of how difficult it was for Moses to keep Israel on the right track spiritually.

Now, think of how pervasive pornography and other dangerously destructive sins are such as drugs. Nobody gets through this life without being tested. The tests themselves may change, but we have to walk through it all nonetheless.

Regarding the temple obligations we have, the offset to that is not only the blessings we can recieve for ourselves, but the opportunity to direct blessings to others in the spirit world. Yes we have different obligations, but we aren't the only ones who benefit from obedience to them.

[tubaloth]

I think Heavenly Father adapts the requirements for the times. Or sets up different requirements. Woman can't and aren't required to get the priesthood.

On the Joseph Smith Papers show when they were talking about the Word of Wisdom the church kept trying to get people to follow it. But it kind of got to a point to where they knew it was just going to happen in the next generation. I think people could have followed the word of wisdom. It might just be easier to start when we are young. Who knows.

[Vort]

Can we draw any conclusions about this apparent difference in the requirements for salvation? One possibility is that you set the standard higher for those better able to meet the standard and a lower standard for those not able to meet the higher standard. If we, that is, those who live today, are working to a higher standard than those who lived before, it suggests a qualitative difference between us and them.

We may conclude that there is no reliable metric for "difficulty" that would allow any sort of meaningful comparisions between eras, or people, or for that matter even individuals.

We may conclude that exaltation requires that we give ourselves to God completely, and that 100% = 100%, regardless of the size of that 100%.

From the lemma that God is just, we may conclude that God judges perfectly, and thus we don't need to fret about whether we have it "easier" or "harder" than any other individual, nation, or time era.

[BadWolf]

I wasn't born LDS, but my family has always been HUGE into the 'Lo do I see my father, and my mother, my sisters and my brothers, stretching out in a line, all the way back to the beginning... And they bid me take my place amongst them' / family history thing. Meaning not so much geneology, but literal history. We're storytellers, and travellers, almost to a man.

With the advent of Internet record systems... Over 90% of the oral traditions have proven true.

What on EARTH does this have to do with your question???

In constantly amazed by the number of people who don't even know what their grandparents did for a living, who they were, etc. Much less cousins, 2nd cousins, nieces & nephews, etc.

For some... The past may be lost to them.

But the present ISN'T.

Themselves. Their parents. Aunts, Uncles, cousins, children.

History STARTS 5 minutes ago. Our present is ancient history for our grandchildren. Collecting our PRESENTS is also history work.

LOL... And its more 'work' than most of those who were born into the church shall ever 'have' to do... As its already been done by those who came before them :)

_______

But that's only a small part of what you're asking, right?

When I was a child, it used to INFURIATE me that there was a child in Afrika who was the greatest piano composer who ever lived. I could SEE him, in my mind. He'd live and die never even seeing a piano. His genius lost to every generation by an accident of geography.

I grew up Travelling. That little boy was representative of thousands of times where I could actually see lost hope & potential that would never be realized. As a child, I saw their lives 'wasted'.

As a teen, and still Travelling... I would see my peers in high dudgeon about clothing, when 6 months prior Id been spending time with kids who'd lost limbs in the mine fields, or walking through streets where the 13 year olds had been in prostituion for 'so long' they were getting 'too old'. I had this 'How DARE you be upset over something so petty???

I've "grown up" several times.

One of those times was when I realized that that little boy in Afrika had a GOOD life, not a wasted one. That the same mind who could have composed scores to make Beethoven weep & Bach storm out muttering to himself... Was still in the world. It still heard sounds, with the same genius, but the magic of his mind was reserved for his own heart and his own eyes. Every rustling arapeggio of water, every booming base of winds across the grass, every tone of voice... His gift was still his own. He didn't live a 'wasted' life. He led one full of wonder.

Another time was when I was taught that pain is pain and suffering is suffering. Whether its the death of a child, or a "petty" thing like having "nothing" to wear. That one should be GLAD that someone is in pain over something "little", because then one can HELP that person, and know that the pain will pass quickly, instead of existing for a lifetime... NOT sneer, deride, or compound a persons pain. That the only difference in pain/fear/suffering/loss is how long it hurts for & how many people it affects.

I FORGET these things all the time, although my Heavenly Father is kind enough to remind me of these lessons (and others, oy, so many others) on a fairly regular basis. Sigh. I need more thwacked upside the head than most.

Point being...

Its EASY for me to say "Every child is different" in regards to parenting... Its harder to act on it.

Its easy for me to say... We all have different trials and blessings, it hard for me not to compare my own life and others.

Its easy for me to say... The requirements are different for everyone... It can be hard for me to see how that's actually "perfect", instead of wrong/ unfair/ not well thought out/ etc.

Which is my answer. The commandments may be the same, but how they apply (and when, how 'hard or easy', what the effects are, etc.) is different for everyone. Because life is different for everyone. We work with what we've got, learning the most we can, being and becoming the best people we can. Easy to say. With a gazillion variations. Rarely fair, but 'right' in a sense that I can't really grok, except in glimpses.

[searching_questioner]

We may conclude that there is no reliable metric for "difficulty" that would allow any sort of meaningful comparisions between eras, or people, or for that matter even individuals.

We may conclude that exaltation requires that we give ourselves to God completely, and that 100% = 100%, regardless of the size of that 100%.

From the lemma that God is just, we may conclude that God judges perfectly, and thus we don't need to fret about whether we have it "easier" or "harder" than any other individual, nation, or time era.

Hi Vort, I have frequently enjoyed reading your writings and usually find your contributions reflective of a deep gospel knowledge acquired over a long period. I think its possible, in some instances to make comparisons between eras. Some that spring to mind are living in Enoch’s Zion was probably better than living in Lot’s Sodom, and living shortly after Christ’s appearance to the Nephites was probably better than living shortly before His appearance. If we string together enough examples like this, I suspect substantial progress would be made towards establishing some sort of metric that might have a smattering of reliability.

As to the idea that God judges perfectly, I agree with that but I have no idea what it means. I’m not sure if anybody else does either because its hard to be sure just what is perfection when it comes to judgment.

The whole idea of similar rewards for dissimilar efforts reminds me strongly of the parable of the labourers in the vineyard in Matthew 20, where all were given the same reward of one penny despite the dramatically different amount of time they spent labouring.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We may conclude that there is no reliable metric for "difficulty" that would allow any sort of meaningful comparisions between eras, or people, or for that matter even individuals.

We may conclude that exaltation requires that we give ourselves to God completely, and that 100% = 100%, regardless of the size of that 100%.

From the lemma that God is just, we may conclude that God judges perfectly, and thus we don't need to fret about whether we have it "easier" or "harder" than any other individual, nation, or time era.

Hi Vort, I have frequently enjoyed reading your writings and usually find your contributions reflective of a deep gospel knowledge acquired over a long period. I think its possible, in some instances to make comparisons between eras. Some that spring to mind are living in Enoch’s Zion was probably better than living in Lot’s Sodom, and living shortly after Christ’s appearance to the Nephites was probably better than living shortly before His appearance. If we string together enough examples like this, I suspect substantial progress would be made towards establishing some sort of metric that might have a smattering of reliability.

As to the idea that God judges perfectly, I agree with that but I have no idea what it means. I’m not sure if anybody else does either because its hard to be sure just what is perfection when it comes to judgment.

The whole idea of similar rewards for dissimilar efforts reminds me strongly of the parable of the labourers in the vineyard in Matthew 20, where all were given the same reward of one penny despite the dramatically different amount of time they spent labouring.

When I went to High School (O.o revealing age here) I actually had to go to the library, find the books I needed, find the quotes physically, hand write my quotes and references, to use them on the typewriter (that did not have a spell checker - but the dictionary sitting next to the typewriter) and spend 4 to 5 hours writing the term paper. Nowadays, my children that are in High School, hop on the computer, find 3 or 4 papers that are already written on the topic, cut and paste quickly found information with the references embedded on the web page put into the reference page automatically, with spell and grammar checker fixing all their mistakes automatically and finished with a similar paper within a half hour. Are they expected to do more work? Probably. Do we get the same diploma in the end? Yes.

My kids do more in less time than I took but receive the same award in the end. The situations are different but keep in mind that the situations are given. Our stewardship in this life is given and variable and cannot be fully seen by man, what we do with it is ours.

[mnn727]

There is a difference between Salvation and Exaltation.

Thus the different requirements -- LDS at all levels really need to make that distinction

[Traveler]

Yes, D&C 82; " 3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."

And at the same time Elder Christofferson said; "“… Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

“But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:28, 34–35; see also verses 17–24).

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

“And they [who accompanied Peter] were astonished … because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

“… Then answered Peter,

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” (Acts 10:44–47).

By this experience and revelation to Peter, the Lord modified the practice of the Church and revealed a more complete doctrinal understanding to His disciples. And so the preaching of the gospel expanded to encompass all mankind."

In other words, the gospel is for all mankind. I am sure that anyone who is accepting of the gospel whether in this life or the next will have opportunity to express their acceptance of all the principles of it, in some way or another. God is no respecter of persons, meaning everyone will have a chance to receive the gospel in it's fullness.

This may sound odd to you seminary - for once I agree with you completely. At least as much as I think I understand. I would second your post and thought and add that more was expected of Jesus Christ concerning salvation that anyone else. (and this may give some additional understanding of Abraham chapter 3).

We should all contribute all that we are able - that is the requirement. And all that we are able includes all that we are, have been given and that is available because of the time and place in which we live. And at the same time - the same is required of all that come unto G-d. In essence we give ourself and since all are not equal or the same we may interpret it to mean that we all give the same or that we are all different in that which is required.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

This may sound odd to you seminary - for once I agree with you completely. At least as much as I think I understand. I would second your post and thought and add that more was expected of Jesus Christ concerning salvation that anyone else. (and this may give some additional understanding of Abraham chapter 3).

We should all contribute all that we are able - that is the requirement. And all that we are able includes all that we are, have been given and that is available because of the time and place in which we live. And at the same time - the same is required of all that come unto G-d. In essence we give ourself and since all are not equal or the same we may interpret it to mean that we all give the same or that we are all different in that which is required.

The Traveler

Thanks, I am sure we agree a lot more than is said here because we focus on our differences.

I think this is why personal revelation is such an important principle. I think one of the tests we face in this life is to be close enough to the spirit to be guided as to what is required. I don't think we can, in the end, use the excuse "I didn't know you wanted me to do that." God has asked us to pray, and to pray often and be close enough to the spirit to be guided as to what is necessary for our salvation, every individual step of the way.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

When I went to High School (O.o revealing age here) I actually had to go to the library, find the books I needed, find the quotes physically, hand write my quotes and references, to use them on the typewriter (that did not have a spell checker - but the dictionary sitting next to the typewriter) and spend 4 to 5 hours writing the term paper. Nowadays, my children that are in High School, hop on the computer, find 3 or 4 papers that are already written on the topic, cut and paste quickly found information with the references embedded on the web page put into the reference page automatically, with spell and grammar checker fixing all their mistakes automatically and finished with a similar paper within a half hour. Are they expected to do more work? Probably. Do we get the same diploma in the end? Yes.

I would just suggest, I think you did more than your kids. You actually learned the material, put in much effort to learn the material and put it together. The effort made you stretch and grow. It changed who you are.

I think our culture is so about finding the easy way out, and now everyone thinks they dont have to work to get anything. This life isn't about getting things done, but it's about becoming Christlike.

I think this just says that the challenges are different. But they are hard for everyone to an "equal" degree. Everyone is supposed to offer sacrifice just as Abraham did. In other words, the hardest thing for everyone. It's different but there is always a hardest relative to the person. The fact that there is a "hardest" for everyone, then everyone has the "equal" challenge.