The Greater Advantage

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe it is through our obedience that further light and knowledge is granted unto us. Yes, I agree they can't be separated.

What are your thoughts then Seminary should two people reach exaltation, one more intelligent than the other, what is the advantage if both are exalted?

Thank you for replying and creating more discussion.

I don't see any difference between the two. The "advantage" is in comparing the person who learns via obedience versus one who learns maybe the same material outside of having their "eye single to the glory of God". If I learn calculus because I want to serve my fellow brothers and sisters and make their lives better then it will be to my advantage as opposed to learning the same material because I want a good job to make lots of money for myself.

The principles of obedience and diligence relate to having our "eye single to the glory of God".

Two people can do the same "right" thing for different reasons. The one who does it for the right reason will have it counted to their credit, and therefore to their advantage in the end.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If one does not know the truth - it is impossible to know Christ. If one comes to know the truth - they will know Christ. Why try to separate the two?

The Traveler

Everyone in this world has already proven to God that they believe in the plan of Salvation, that is called passing the first estate. We are not here to prove it over again. We are here to mold ourselves further into beings more similar to God.

The difference between knowing the truth and knowingly living the truth is the separating factor. As in D&C 82: " 16 Behold, here is awisdom also in me for your good.

17 And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just—

18 And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord’s estorehouse, to become the common property of the whole church—

19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

20 This order I have appointed to be an everlasting order unto you, and unto your successors, inasmuch as you sin not.

21 And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption."

The issue is, if we don't say it in such a way then people tend to "harden" their heart against the idea that the learning and improving the talents 100 fold is not for self but should only be done with "seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God." That is the factor that takes knowledge (knowledge we already expressed mastery over in the pre-mortal world) and puts it into a usable form for perfection. The knowledge alone will not do anything, it is where our "eye" is that will put it to use. If a person does not do this then the default will happen, which is to harden the heart.

[Finrock]

Finrock, Are you calling my spirit dumb? (just kidding)

You tell me how much we could learn in the presence of God without a veil, receiving direct knowledge from God, pure truth, for thousands if not millions of years. I can tell you it is more than any one person has ever learned in this world while living here under 100 years. Therefore, my spirit definitely knows more than any man has ever learned. And I believe all of that secular learning will come back to me when the veil is lifted, i.e. - after the second estate test is over. In Gospel Principles it says that our spirits were mature, and we learn in other teachings that we learned as much as we could without going any further in our development to become like God, we didn't have a body. Some of us even helped make this world which probably took a little calculus, physics, biology, environmental science, etc.

If I understand you correctly, I believe you are saying that the interval of time we spent in heaven was great enough for all spirits to learn everything there is to know about reality except for the part about reality where we need to learn right from wrong. Is this correct?

Also, I hate to break the news to you but we are "fallen". The word fallen usually implies a 'lower' status, not a higher one. We cannot lift ourselves up to where we were by ourselves, we need a savior to do that. In other words, we cannot 'learn' our way back to where we were. Upon resurrection we move higher than where we were but that also includes the lifting of the veil and receiving a glorified body. My spiritual learning alone here will not spring me past where I was before by myself. As a fallen spirit I require a Savior to do that.

I'm guessing this is a reason why you are unwilling to accept the notion that we did NOT learn all secular knowledge in premortality.

Regards,

Finrock

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! :)

Everyone in this world has already proven to God that they believe in the plan of Salvation, that is called passing the first estate. We are not here to prove it over again. We are here to mold ourselves further into beings more similar to God.

Whatever we learned and to whatever extent we learned it, we have now forgotten it. This is functionally equivalent to not knowing something. We are on earth, as mortals, to prove that we accept the Plan of Salvation.

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! :)

Whatever we learned and to whatever extent we learned it, we have now forgotten it. This is functionally equivalent to not knowing something. We are on earth, as mortals, to prove that we accept the Plan of Salvation.

Regards,

Finrock

Exactly, and therefore not here to learn "new" facts. We are here to show that we will do the things we are asked to do while under carnal influences.

This state is temporary due to a lack of access of the information, not a loss. It is still there, just not accessible, at least for the most part. What is accessible is what we call the light of Christ and even that can become not accessible for some when they harden their hearts.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I understand you correctly, I believe you are saying that the interval of time we spent in heaven was great enough for all spirits to learn everything there is to know about reality except for the part about reality where we need to learn right from wrong. Is this correct?

I'm guessing this is a reason why you are unwilling to accept the notion that we did NOT learn all secular knowledge in premortality.

Regards,

Finrock

I didn't say that we didn't learn "about" right from wrong .... those are your words. There is a difference between learning about something and experiencing it enough to appreciate what was learned.

Did we not know that we would all sin by coming here and therefore need a Savior when we stood in the council in Heaven to choose a side? How did we know what sin was then?

The one thing that none of us really learned was how to fight off carnal influences while choosing the right. But that doesn't mean we didn't learn "about" it. We probably better understood that concept than we do even now.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p297. This is not the sunday school manual but quotes compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith.

"It is not wisdom that we should have all knowledge at once presented before us; but that we should have a little at a time so we may comprehend it. President Smith then read the 2nd epistle of Peter, 1st chapter, 16th to last verses, and dwelt upon the 19th verse with some remarks.

Add to your faith knowledge etc. The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation. This principle can be comprehended by the faithful and diligent; and every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ."

So our knowledge grows with time right? Read D&C 93 and it talks about light and truth and intelligence. Intelligence is light and truth(v36). D&C 93 teaches that truth is a knowledge of things as they are, were, and will be. In other words, an unchanging principle or piece of knowledge. God lives, Jesus is the Christ, The Spirit testifies of truth, etc.

D&C 88 teaches about laws, and how people who inherit the various kingdoms do so because they abide by a certain law. We inherit the celestial kingdom by abiding by the law of Christ(v 21) and this allows us to receive the full measure of the blessings of the atonement and thus are sanctified from all sin.

This goes back to the quote where if we are faithful and diligent then we receive salvation. Abiding by the law can only occur because we have learned the truth and decided to live it. Right? That is what John 17:3 is saying right? How can we abide a celestial law with Him if we do not know the law ourselves. And truly this teaches us that by living and abiding the law, we know exactly who God is.

That is the key. When we have a greater knowledge and intelligence, then we are closer to being like our Heavenly Father and our Savior Jesus Christ.

[Finrock]

I didn't say that we didn't learn "about" right from wrong .... those are your words. There is a difference between learning about something and experiencing it enough to appreciate what was learned.

Did we not know that we would all sin by coming here and therefore need a Savior when we stood in the council in Heaven to choose a side? How did we know what sin was then?

The one thing that none of us really learned was how to fight off carnal influences while choosing the right. But that doesn't mean we didn't learn "about" it. We probably better understood that concept than we do even now.

This wasn't the answer I was expecting. What I mean is that I asked a "Yes" or "No" question and I was expecting a "Yes" or "No" answer.

I have no other motive at this point in the discussion but to sincerely know what it is that you believe.

So, you believe that in the great interval of time before we came to earth, all of us (past, present, future), learned everything there is to know about reality except we did not know how to "fight off carnal influences while choosing the right"?

Is this correct? Yes or no?

Respectfully,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

This wasn't the answer I was expecting. What I mean is that I asked a "Yes" or "No" question and I was expecting a "Yes" or "No" answer.

I have no other motive at this point in the discussion but to sincerely know what it is that you believe.

So, you believe that in the great interval of time before we came to earth, all of us (past, present, future), learned everything there is to know about reality except we did not know how to "fight off carnal influences while choosing the right"?

Is this correct? Yes or no?

Respectfully,

Finrock

The answer is no if you include experiential things like did we know what a tooth ache felt like etc. But if you are asking, did we know we about tooth aches etc. the answer is yes we knew as much as we could know without experiencing it.

What surprise do you think you discovered in this life that you had no discussion about before this life began?

[Anddenex]

"It is not wisdom that we should have all knowledge at once presented before us; but that we should have a little at a time so we may comprehend it. President Smith then read the 2nd epistle of Peter, 1st chapter, 16th to last verses, and dwelt upon the 19th verse with some remarks.

Add to your faith knowledge etc. The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation. This principle can be comprehended by the faithful and diligent; and every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ."

Thank you.

I have been more wondering if the advantage, as others have shared, is the knowledge that saves versus knowledge that does not save.

Truth is the advantage. Truth makes us free. The only advantage I see is between those who are Telestial, Terrestial, and Celestial (and among Celestial those who are exalted).

The greater our intelligence, includes our ability to accept light and truth, the greater our reward in heaven, the greatest reward is exaltation.

[Traveler]

The answer is no if you include experiential things like did we know what a tooth ache felt like etc. But if you are asking, did we know we about tooth aches etc. the answer is yes we knew as much as we could know without experiencing it.

What surprise do you think you discovered in this life that you had no discussion about before this life began?

I think you are not quite right. We did not know good and evil before coming to this life. In fact that is the reason we are having this mortal experience - to learn good from evil. In your example of a tooth ache - do you understand into which category (good or evil) that falls? Can you explain it in terms of good and evil? If you can't then you have not learned the truth concerning good and evil.

Now here is a question about "secular" learning. A scientist carefully consider the creation looking out into the universe to understand the wonders of creation is it good - according to G-d? What about the wonders of mater (physics) and how all things are shaped and put together? Are these things good - according to G-d? What is the meaning of Genesis Chapter 1 verse 31?

The Traveler

[searching_questioner]

re. snoozer's idea that our spirits learned lots of stuff in the pre-existence by virtue of the fact that we dwelt in the presence of God: I dwell on the same earth, and therefore in the presence of, President Monson, but despite his best efforts to teach me all he knows, through General Conference and other forums, I still don't know 1% of what he knows about church administration and living a righteous life.

re. the discussion about what sort of advantage does additional knowledge give to those who are exalted. Perhaps to be exalted is to be put on the path that leads to godhood, and those with a little more knowledge than others will be placed further along that path than those with less knowledge. The relationship between knowledge and progress, suggested in the teaching that it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance, suggests that knowledge aids progress, so it may be that those with more knowledge are able to progress further or faster than those with less.

[Finrock]

Good Morning Seminarysnoozer. I hope you're having a great day! :)

The answer is no if you include experiential things like did we know what a tooth ache felt like etc. But if you are asking, did we know we about tooth aches etc. the answer is yes we knew as much as we could know without experiencing it.

What surprise do you think you discovered in this life that you had no discussion about before this life began?

Thank you.

I don't believe like you do. I don't make any claims about what I knew during the pre-earth life. I can't remember it. Not one bit. Whatever I knew or think I knew, well, it is impossible for me to speak to that.

I think our learning was limited while we were in heaven. I believe that this earth life is the superior training ground. I believe that existing and learning with a body is the best way to be. I don't believe that we all learned all secular knowledge in the heavens prior to coming to earth. As beings who had never experienced a temporal existence, I find it difficult to see how we could have even appreciated such knowledge.

I don't believe that we can shirk our responsibility on this earth to be vigorously engaged in increasing our knowledge and then expect that after we die and are resurrected that God will magically fill our minds with all the knowledge of the Universe.

Ultimately, I believe all truth is a compound in one and therefore eternal life consists of knowing and accepting all truth.

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you are not quite right. We did not know good and evil before coming to this life. In fact that is the reason we are having this mortal experience - to learn good from evil. In your example of a tooth ache - do you understand into which category (good or evil) that falls? Can you explain it in terms of good and evil? If you can't then you have not learned the truth concerning good and evil.

Now here is a question about "secular" learning. A scientist carefully consider the creation looking out into the universe to understand the wonders of creation is it good - according to G-d? What about the wonders of mater (physics) and how all things are shaped and put together? Are these things good - according to G-d? What is the meaning of Genesis Chapter 1 verse 31?

The Traveler

What we did not know is how to exercise agency in making choices between good and evil. One should not interpret that as meaning we did not have any concept of what was good and evil. You change the wording of your second and third sentences. You first say "did not know good and evil" and then you said in the next sentence "to learn good from evil". Those two things are different. To have the ability to separate good from evil is different from learning about good and evil.

If one had never tasted cheese in their life I could still tell them about how cheese is made, they could even learn that one cheese is more sweet or salty than another etc. They could learn all those facts and names and descriptions even if they do not know what "salty" tastes like. But to distinguish one cheese from another by taste, one would have to experience those tastes.

I think the issue I have is that everyone interprets this lack of knowledge of how to distinguish good from bad as synonymous with never even hearing about "good" and "evil". I think that is a false assumption.

Because it says in Gospel Principles; "Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies. We would need to leave our physical bodies at death and reunite with them in the Resurrection. Then we would receive immortal bodies like that of our Heavenly Father. If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received. (See D&C 93:30–34.)

Our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 209, 511). We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as He does (see D&C 132:19–20).

We learned that He would provide an earth for us where we would prove ourselves (see Abraham 3:24–26). A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil without being influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father. Thus we could obey Him because of our faith in Him, not because of our knowledge or memory of Him. He would help us recognize the truth when we heard it again on earth (see John 18:37).

At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that some would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose their way. We learned that all of us would have trials in our lives: sickness, disappointment, pain, sorrow, and death. But we understood that these would be given to us for our experience and our good (see D&C 122:7). If we allowed them to, these trials would purify us rather than defeat us. They would teach us to have endurance, patience, and charity (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball [2006], 15–16).

At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin (see D&C 29:46–47). We learned that a Savior would be provided for us so we could overcome our sins and overcome death with resurrection. We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy."

It says very clearly there that WE LEARNED while at that council before this life began in pre-mortality that a Savior would be provided so that we could overcome our sins and we learned that all of us would sin except little children. And WE LEARNED that all of this would be for our good. So, you tell me how WE LEARNED all of that without ever talking and knowing about good and evil. I never said anything about experiential knowledge, in fact I excluded that as things learned in pre-mortality. But we still learned about good, sin and the need for a Savior as well as the evil influences of this world. And likely we better understood what that meant than even how we understand it now because we had the perfect language and in direct communication with our Father in Heaven who is a perfect teacher.

Don't tell me we had that life changing discussion with nobody asking the question, "God, what does 'good' mean? What does 'evil' mean?"

Edited January 16, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good Morning Seminarysnoozer. I hope you're having a great day! :)

Thank you.

I don't believe like you do. I don't make any claims about what I knew during the pre-earth life. I can't remember it. Not one bit. Whatever I knew or think I knew, well, it is impossible for me to speak to that.

I think our learning was limited while we were in heaven. I believe that this earth life is the superior training ground. I believe that existing and learning with a body is the best way to be. I don't believe that we all learned all secular knowledge in the heavens prior to coming to earth. As beings who had never experienced a temporal existence, I find it difficult to see how we could have even appreciated such knowledge.

I don't believe that we can shirk our responsibility on this earth to be vigorously engaged in increasing our knowledge and then expect that after we die and are resurrected that God will magically fill our minds with all the knowledge of the Universe.

Ultimately, I believe all truth is a compound in one and therefore eternal life consists of knowing and accepting all truth.

Regards,

Finrock

If this life is the "superior training ground" please explain the baby that dies at 5 minutes of age and goes to the Celestial Kingdom without having "superior training"?

Elder Christofferson said; "The scriptures enlarge our memory by helping us always to remember the Lord and our relationship to Him and the Father. They remind us of what we knew in our premortal life. And as these things penetrate our minds and hearts, our faith in God and His Beloved Son takes root."

The whole process of being spiritual is one of remembering. Remembering what? What you already agreed to, which is what happened by passing the first estate test. We all heard the plan of Salvation in better detail than we now know it and we all (that are here in mortality) accepted it. At that point we accepted "all truth", a lot of which was accepted by faith but still the same we all accepted all truth.

Our responsibilities to increase in knowledge while here on Earth are independent of how much we learned before. The responsibility to learn all we can here is not because we haven't learned it before but to show our action of faith, to prove that we will do the things the Lord asks us to do and with an eye single to His glory help bring about His work on Earth. The value of which is to learn the action of obedience and diligence. The value is not in the acquiring of personal secular knowledge, what one thinks are "new" facts. What fact can you discover in this life that you could not get from God? (reminder; I said "fact" not experience)

[Seminarysnoozer]

re. snoozer's idea that our spirits learned lots of stuff in the pre-existence by virtue of the fact that we dwelt in the presence of God: I dwell on the same earth, and therefore in the presence of, President Monson, but despite his best efforts to teach me all he knows, through General Conference and other forums, I still don't know 1% of what he knows about church administration and living a righteous life.

re. the discussion about what sort of advantage does additional knowledge give to those who are exalted. Perhaps to be exalted is to be put on the path that leads to godhood, and those with a little more knowledge than others will be placed further along that path than those with less knowledge. The relationship between knowledge and progress, suggested in the teaching that it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance, suggests that knowledge aids progress, so it may be that those with more knowledge are able to progress further or faster than those with less.

I am not sure why you are trying to compare learning via a corrupted body behind the veil with direct spiritual learning in the presence of God. They aren't even close enough to make such a comparison. Read many of the experiences of those who have had direct contact with God and asked to provide that account to us. Most of the time they say something to the effect of "most of which could not be written". Why? We cannot comprehend the things we learned while in the presence of God in the state we are in right now. I cannot tell you why that is but likely it is because we are behind the veil and we are dealing with a fallen, corrupted, way less than perfect body.

[searching_questioner]

I'm just suggesting that being in the presence of someone does not automatically mean that we learn a little, or some, or all that that being knows.

[Traveler]

I am not sure why you are trying to compare learning via a corrupted body behind the veil with direct spiritual learning in the presence of God. They aren't even close enough to make such a comparison. Read many of the experiences of those who have had direct contact with God and asked to provide that account to us. Most of the time they say something to the effect of "most of which could not be written". Why? We cannot comprehend the things we learned while in the presence of God in the state we are in right now. I cannot tell you why that is but likely it is because we are behind the veil and we are dealing with a fallen, corrupted, way less than perfect body.

Interesting thought - you criticize what we can learn in our fallen state by speculating on things you have learned in your fallen state?

I am of another thought. I believe that we can only learn if we are (in the words of scripture) willing to knock, seek and ask. The scriptures also tell us that we are to "study" and use our mind - even thought it is veiled - as part of our seeking before we come before G-d to gain divine guidance in the matter.

I believe every person should seek truth with whatever abilities they have or have been blessed with. I do not believe in pursuing ignorance but to seek understanding with every opportunity. I do not understand why a saint of G-d would discourage learning any truth and as much truth as possible in any circumstance in which G-d has placed us.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm just suggesting that being in the presence of someone does not automatically mean that we learn a little, or some, or all that that being knows.

Yes, absolutely, but those that were not on the learning pathway are not any of us. They've already been screened out.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting thought - you criticize what we can learn in our fallen state by speculating on things you have learned in your fallen state?

I am of another thought. I believe that we can only learn if we are (in the words of scripture) willing to knock, seek and ask. The scriptures also tell us that we are to "study" and use our mind - even thought it is veiled - as part of our seeking before we come before G-d to gain divine guidance in the matter.

I believe every person should seek truth with whatever abilities they have or have been blessed with. I do not believe in pursuing ignorance but to seek understanding with every opportunity. I do not understand why a saint of G-d would discourage learning any truth and as much truth as possible in any circumstance in which G-d has placed us.

The Traveler

Why do you say it is me? I am simply passing on the things I learned from those that communicate with God. The prophets and disciples of God have taught that man is ever learning but cannot reach God by this kind of learning. I don't take credit for that kind of criticism. It is not discouraging learning, just encouraging learning with an eye single to the glory of God which is the only learning that will carry through and be of any kind of advantage in the next life.

Learning electrical engineering so I can make a better roadside bomb to kill innocent people will not be a learning that will be to my advantage in the next life. The scriptures regarding learning and the corresponding Article of Faith attempt to distinguish the type of learning. You are having a problem with me pointing out that distinction maybe because you think all learning is good no matter the type. The distinction is made by the intent of the studying. Studying and learning with the wrong intent, can in fact, lead people away from the truth as the heart hardens to the truth. So, to say that all studying is good no matter the intent is misleading. (I believe)

[Traveler]

....

Learning electrical engineering so I can make a better roadside bomb to kill innocent people will not be a learning that will be to my advantage in the next life. The scriptures regarding learning and the corresponding Article of Faith attempt to distinguish the type of learning. You are having a problem with me pointing out that distinction maybe because you think all learning is good no matter the type. The distinction is made by the intent of the studying. Studying and learning with the wrong intent, can in fact, lead people away from the truth as the heart hardens to the truth. So, to say that all studying is good no matter the intent is misleading. (I believe)

Sorry - I just do not understand why you assume that someone studying electrical engineering seeks such knowledge to kill innocent people. Even the most hard core atheists I have known that studied electrical engineering hoped to benefit their fellow man. To be honest the desire to harm people - in my experience is more exclusive to those of a religious nature - that think they help G-d to punishing non believers - quoting favorite scripture to prove they are right.

I believe history would also indicate that it is the religious fanatic that is more likely to start a war in the name of G-d than a "mad" scientist dedicated to discovery and pocket protectors.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry - I just do not understand why you assume that someone studying electrical engineering seeks such knowledge to kill innocent people. Even the most hard core atheists I have known that studied electrical engineering hoped to benefit their fellow man. To be honest the desire to harm people - in my experience is more exclusive to those of a religious nature - that think they help G-d to punishing non believers - quoting favorite scripture to prove they are right.

I believe history would also indicate that it is the religious fanatic that is more likely to start a war in the name of G-d than a "mad" scientist dedicated to discovery and pocket protectors.

The Traveler

I realize that you don't have any confidence in what I write, that has been well established. My point was not to judge in any stereotyped way that you are suggesting I was doing but to point out that not all learning leads towards God. In other words, not all learning is to "the greater advantage". I think it is similar to the discussion of money. Money isn't inherently bad but if the love of money occupies one's passions above the things of God, then it becomes something that pulls that person away from the truth. The same thing can happen to individuals who love learning for personal gain and achievement over serving God. I don't assume anyone's motive. That is something I am not capable of doing. I was simply giving an example of someone who had the wrong motivations to crack your closed minded, black or white view of this issue, that seeking of learning of all kinds is one that is eternally advantageous. There is more of a scale there than you want to believe. But don't take it from me then. .... take it from the priesthood holders that communicate with God and pass on God's message to you .....

From Elder Bednar; "A hierarchy of importance exists among the things you and I can learn. Indeed, all learning is not equally important. The Apostle Paul taught this truth in his second epistle to Timothy as he warned that in the latter days many people would be “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (2 Timothy 3:7).

Some facts are helpful or interesting to know. Some knowledge is useful to learn and apply. But gospel truths are essential for us to understand and live if we are to become what our Heavenly Father yearns for us to become. The type of learning I am attempting to describe is not merely the accumulation of data and facts and frameworks; rather, it is acquiring and applying knowledge for righteousness.

The revelations teach us that “the glory of God is intelligence” (D&C 93:36). We typically may think the word intelligence in this scripture denotes innate cognitive ability or a particular gift for academic work. In this verse, however, one of the meanings of intelligence is the application of the knowledge we obtain for righteous purposes. As President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught, the learning “for which the Church stands—is the application of knowledge to the development of a noble and Godlike character.”

[Traveler]

I realize that you don't have any confidence in what I write, that has been well established. My point was not to judge in any stereotyped way that you are suggesting I was doing but to point out that not all learning leads towards God. In other words, not all learning is to "the greater advantage". I think it is similar to the discussion of money. Money isn't inherently bad but if the love of money occupies one's passions above the things of God, then it becomes something that pulls that person away from the truth. The same thing can happen to individuals who love learning for personal gain and achievement over serving God. I don't assume anyone's motive. That is something I am not capable of doing. I was simply giving an example of someone who had the wrong motivations to crack your closed minded, black or white view of this issue, that seeking of learning of all kinds is one that is eternally advantageous. There is more of a scale there than you want to believe. But don't take it from me then. .... take it from the priesthood holders that communicate with God and pass on God's message to you .....

From Elder Bednar; "A hierarchy of importance exists among the things you and I can learn. Indeed, all learning is not equally important. The Apostle Paul taught this truth in his second epistle to Timothy as he warned that in the latter days many people would be “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (2 Timothy 3:7).

Some facts are helpful or interesting to know. Some knowledge is useful to learn and apply. But gospel truths are essential for us to understand and live if we are to become what our Heavenly Father yearns for us to become. The type of learning I am attempting to describe is not merely the accumulation of data and facts and frameworks; rather, it is acquiring and applying knowledge for righteousness.

The revelations teach us that “the glory of God is intelligence” (D&C 93:36). We typically may think the word intelligence in this scripture denotes innate cognitive ability or a particular gift for academic work. In this verse, however, one of the meanings of intelligence is the application of the knowledge we obtain for righteous purposes. As President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught, the learning “for which the Church stands—is the application of knowledge to the development of a noble and Godlike character.”

I am an advocate of learning - I believe the first great lesson in learning is to learn how to learn. I believe in the journey not just the destination. I believe the principles of truth are outside of who believes it. For example I believe truth is not what G-d believes and therefore it is true. I believe that G-d himself is an eternal seeker of truth. That truth exist regardless of who believes it. Thus G-d speaks truth because he loves truth. That G-d seeks after all things that are true and that the quest for truth is the quest to be as G-d.

I believe it is possible to seek information in place of truth and that should a person seek information they will miss the truth because truth itself must be sought, it must be desired greater than life itself. So I believe it is better to strive for truth than to have found it and lost the desire to seek any more. Therefore, to me the problem is not in seeking for truth but in the one that thinks they have "the better truth".

It does not matter how much a person loves traveling east or west with the sun. It does not matter how much they have learned traveling east and west or how important understanding the difference between east and west is (even in an eternal perspective) - to get from Provo to Salt Lake (not a great distance) they must go north. And so it is with truth. It is not just about knowing - there is a dimension of truth in what we do.

But what I have learned to be most wary of - are those that - for whatever reason or excuse they make up - do not pursue truth because they think it is not really necessary or a truth that is not necessary - or that it is too difficult or a truth that is too difficult - or does not really matter in eternity or for their salvation or a truth that does not matter in eternity or a truth necessary for their salvation. All those excuses I believe to be lies - that the difference between G-d and Satan is that G-d seeks Truth and Satan seeks what could be called partial truths or what he thinks are the best truth but in realities are lies.

Perhaps I am closed minded - but the smorgasbord approach to truth is what I find flawed and something I do not recommend - that is why I have challenged you posts. It appears to me that is the very thing you are advocating.

The Traveler

[THIRDpersonviewer]

hello! I havent read all your posts in your discussion but I just wanted to post based off what I read in the last 2 posts.

I gathered that seminarysnoozer is helping us understand that the most important learning is how to be Godlike. The way to do this is not by acquiring facts and data as was suggested, but to actually use the knowledge gained. I totally agree.

I gather from traveler, that we must seek truth. Truth is the only thing that will bring us to God. The truth will always exist whether someone believes it or not. Those who truly grow in truth are only those who seek it. Not those who seek partial truths or other data and information. I agree as well.

To me those sound awfully similar and are complementary.

Truth is the important learning that seminarysnoozer is talking about that leads to being like God. And the only way to learn truth is if it is sought directly and not just partial truths. They must seek pure unadulterated truths. Seek with the right reason.

The difference I've noticed in the dialogue is what areas of truth should be studied. Largely Gospel, anything you get your hands on, or anything that avoids the Gospel, or anything you get your hands on but priority goes to the Gospel. These are the different approaches that I can think of off the top of my head. The last one being my approach.

I might mention that even though we are to learn all truth. It will not all be learned in this life. We learned much before, we learn a lot here, and we learn more after. What we learn here has certain knowledge that is more important than others for this life. There are others that are important also but not as applicable to this life as it will after.

I am a science guy. Science is truth. Not saving truth. It is not essential in this life. It is essential after this life(in addition to what is essential now). This life the important truths to learn are the Gospel ones, and some of the others if we can, have time, want to, or expected(on individual basis, i.e. building talents).

Thus I say all learning about truth is advantageous, just in the right time and season, and also for the right reason as Traveler has taught.

sound good?

[Traveler]

hello! I havent read all your posts in your discussion but I just wanted to post based off what I read in the last 2 posts.

I gathered that seminarysnoozer is helping us understand that the most important learning is how to be Godlike. The way to do this is not by acquiring facts and data as was suggested, but to actually use the knowledge gained. I totally agree.

I gather from traveler, that we must seek truth. Truth is the only thing that will bring us to God. The truth will always exist whether someone believes it or not. Those who truly grow in truth are only those who seek it. Not those who seek partial truths or other data and information. I agree as well.

To me those sound awfully similar and are complementary.

Truth is the important learning that seminarysnoozer is talking about that leads to being like God. And the only way to learn truth is if it is sought directly and not just partial truths. They must seek pure unadulterated truths. Seek with the right reason.

The difference I've noticed in the dialogue is what areas of truth should be studied. Largely Gospel, anything you get your hands on, or anything that avoids the Gospel, or anything you get your hands on but priority goes to the Gospel. These are the different approaches that I can think of off the top of my head. The last one being my approach.

I might mention that even though we are to learn all truth. It will not all be learned in this life. We learned much before, we learn a lot here, and we learn more after. What we learn here has certain knowledge that is more important than others for this life. There are others that are important also but not as applicable to this life as it will after.

I am a science guy. Science is truth. Not saving truth. It is not essential in this life. It is essential after this life(in addition to what is essential now). This life the important truths to learn are the Gospel ones, and some of the others if we can, have time, want to, or expected(on individual basis, i.e. building talents).

Thus I say all learning about truth is advantageous, just in the right time and season, and also for the right reason as Traveler has taught.

sound good?

Sounds good - with the understanding that historically it has been those that have touted religion and the need to "protect" religious "truth" that have proven to be most detrimental to human society. For example - Joseph Smith was not murdered to perverse perceived scientific principles that are obviously inferior to divine truths. But rather principles of justice and law were suspended because it was thought such things are "inferior" to the will or truths of G-d. It is the justification of religious fanatics that sacrifice truth on the alters of false G-ds.

The Traveler