Recommended Posts

I have been reading and I am kinda confused. Heavenly father, Jesus and Lucifer were heavenly being and we were all spirit children? How and why were we and if we were already in heaven with Heavenly Father why did we need to come to earth? Why if he had spiritual children couldn't we with out coming to earth? Help me understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

The one that was like unto God was Christ and Second one was Lucifer.

Clearly there was differentiation in the preexistence. Christ being 'like unto God' puts him at the top. Lucifer... well.. we don't know where he was. We think he was up their some where.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

by special I guess I mean different than the rest of us in the pre existance. What does "like unto God" mean? Were they more spiritual or rightous than the rest of us?

Paw:

Are you attending Gospel Principles classes on Sundays. You sound like a new member to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Church.

Attending these classes will answer all of the questions you have. Plus help you draw spiritually closer to the Lord so he can teach you, should you ask Him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And yes we believe there is a Heavenly Mother.

Which is a result of a logical and rational expansion of our other beliefs and doctrine.

It should be noted that logical and rational is not the same as Revelation and Scripture

by special I guess I mean different than the rest of us in the pre existance. What does "like unto God" mean? Were they more spiritual or rightous than the rest of us?

I would feel that Christ being more spiritual or righteous would be a safe interpretation in this case

Edited by estradling75
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I left the church at 16 and have reciently have come back. I have been back almost 1 year. I talked with the Bishop and he recommended that I attend the Gospil Principles class for the next year so yes I am doing that. I have lots of questions and don't want to take up all the time I don't want others to think its all about me and my questions. I have been reading the BOM daily and praying a lot but still have many many questions. You forget alot when you have been gone from the church for 26 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah so, Heavenly Father has spirit Children. Like any Father he wants them to be like He is! But we had two problems! One Heavenly Father has a body, we did not. Heavenly Father had a Family, and even though we are part of his family, we don't have our own family.

This is why we needed Mortal life. We come to earth to get a body. But we also are here how to learn to use the body. We also are here to see if we can still follow Heavenly Father even when he isn't right in front of us (we call this Faith).

Jesus Christ was the first (Spirit) born of Heavenly Fathers kids'. We don't know where Lucifer came in.

Jesus Christ from the start knew he was the first Born and probably to some extent knew he had to be ready for anything his Father needed him to do.

Lucifer a spirit like us, wants the same things we all wanted, (A body, and to be like God), but he didn't want to do all the work (come down to earth life, and learn Faith). So Lucifer put forth a plan (Knowing that God never takes away our choices) the plan was we do what Lucifer says (never break any commandments) and we would be perfect and gain everything. But Lucifer's plan took away agency. Some how Agency is an eternal law to some degree. Because Lucifer tried to over throw God to some extent he was cast out!

The rest is history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesus Christ was the first (Spirit) born of Heavenly Fathers kids'. We don't know where Lucifer came in.

Jesus Christ from the start knew he was the first Born and probably to some extent knew he had to be ready for anything his Father needed him to do.

I agree with this, and think it cannot be emphasized enough. Christ is our brother; but He is our elder (and eldest) brother.

So Lucifer put forth a plan (Knowing that God never takes away our choices) the plan was we do what Lucifer says (never break any commandments) and we would be perfect and gain everything. But Lucifer's plan took away agency. Some how Agency is an eternal law to some degree. Because Lucifer tried to over throw God to some extent he was cast out!

In point of fact, the scriptures say Lucifer sought to destroy the agency of man. As a legal term, "agency" = choice + accountability. The culturally dominant LDS assumption is that Satan sought to destroy agency by eliminating choice, but it's just as possible (and in fact, IMHO, both more plausible from a practical standpoint, and more in line with the scriptures that say Satan persuades no man to do good) to assume that his plan involved eliminating accountability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lucifer a spirit like us, wants the same things we all wanted, (A body, and to be like God), but he didn't want to do all the work (come down to earth life, and learn Faith). So Lucifer put forth a plan (Knowing that God never takes away our choices) the plan was we do what Lucifer says (never break any commandments) and we would be perfect and gain everything. But Lucifer's plan took away agency.

Not to get overly picky, but the scriptures record nothing about Lucifer putting forth any other "plan". I don't believe any other such "plan" was ever put forward. I believe this is a false doctrine, a misunderstanding of scripture that has perpetuated itself for generations now.

Lucifer rebelled against God. He sought to usurp God's glory by destroying the agency of man -- the same thing he continues do to. He did not put forth an alternate plan, because there IS no alternate plan. Rather, Satan lied; remember that he is the very father of lies. He lied, plain and simple. He said he would bring all back to the Father, something that even the Father himself did not claim to be able to do. And he reasoned that, since he would do this amazing (and impossible) thing, all the glory should be his. Which, of course, was his only aim all along.

Satan's only "plan", if you want to call it that, is to destroy us. That's it. There was and is no other plan except our destruction. In specific, there was no Luciferian alternate "plan of salvation". Such a thing is impossible, a contradiction in terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In point of fact, the scriptures say Lucifer sought to destroy the agency of man. As a legal term, "agency" = choice + accountability. The culturally dominant LDS assumption is that Satan sought to destroy agency by eliminating choice, but it's just as possible (and in fact, IMHO, both more plausible from a practical standpoint, and more in line with the scriptures that say Satan persuades no man to do good) to assume that his plan involved eliminating accountability.

Very interesting JAG, I have wondered the same point if Lucifer actually sought to eliminate accountability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to get overly picky, but the scriptures record nothing about Lucifer putting forth any other "plan". I don't believe any other such "plan" was ever put forward. I believe this is a false doctrine, a misunderstanding of scripture that has perpetuated itself for generations now.

Lucifer rebelled against God. He sought to usurp God's glory by destroying the agency of man -- the same thing he continues do to. He did not put forth an alternate plan, because there IS no alternate plan. Rather, Satan lied; remember that he is the very father of lies. He lied, plain and simple. He said he would bring all back to the Father, something that even the Father himself did not claim to be able to do. And he reasoned that, since he would do this amazing (and impossible) thing, all the glory should be his. Which, of course, was his only aim all along.

Satan's only "plan", if you want to call it that, is to destroy us. That's it. There was and is no other plan except our destruction. In specific, there was no Luciferian alternate "plan of salvation". Such a thing is impossible, a contradiction in terms.

Satan

In Satan's rebellion against God, Satan “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). He said: “I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor”

This is commonly described as Satan's plan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DeborahC

To me, it seems Lucifer DID have a plan which would take away our agency.

"I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor" (Moses 4:1)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Satan

In Satan's rebellion against God, Satan “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). He said: “I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor”

This is commonly described as Satan's plan.

Agreed. It is so described. But such a description is only loosely true, at best, and in fact implies a bunch of stuff not in evidence in scripture.

Satan had no "alternate plan", and we did not "vote" on which one got the green light. God the Father presented his (not Jehovah's) plan, and selected Jehovah as the Savior. We accepted the Father's plan. Satan demanded that he be made the Savior and given the glory, was denied, and subsequently rebelled and was cast out forever with those who loved and followed him in rebellion. The are Perdition, or eternally lost. And as the scriptures teach, his (and their) only "plan" is to destroy the agency of man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. It is so described. But such a description is only loosely true, at best, and in fact implies a bunch of stuff not in evidence in scripture.

Satan had no "alternate plan", and we did not "vote" on which one got the green light. God the Father presented his (not Jehovah's) plan, and selected Jehovah as the Savior. We accepted the Father's plan. Satan demanded that he be made the Savior and given the glory, was denied, and subsequently rebelled and was cast out forever with those who loved and followed him in rebellion. The are Perdition, or eternally lost. And as the scriptures teach, his (and their) only "plan" is to destroy the agency of man.

Right... But it is commonly accepted that Satan pitched it as an alternative plan... That it would get the same results but with less work. (which would be the lie) I think we do this to try to explain why a third part of the host of heaven followed him

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. It is so described. But such a description is only loosely true, at best, and in fact implies a bunch of stuff not in evidence in scripture.

Satan had no "alternate plan", and we did not "vote" on which one got the green light. God the Father presented his (not Jehovah's) plan, and selected Jehovah as the Savior. We accepted the Father's plan. Satan demanded that he be made the Savior and given the glory, was denied, and subsequently rebelled and was cast out forever with those who loved and followed him in rebellion. The are Perdition, or eternally lost. And as the scriptures teach, his (and their) only "plan" is to destroy the agency of man.

Didn't we vote by our actions? who we chose to follow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't we vote by our actions? who we chose to follow?

That's a very large definition of "vote". If you go by that definition, then each of us is "voting" on the Father's plan of salvation every moment of our lives. Which I suppose is fine, if you care to look at it that way, but that certainly is not the idea of "voting" that most people have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To paw722,

answers come with time. As long as you keep studying day in and day out you're answers will come.

Also, if you avoid opinions but actually find scriptures for your answers then it is easier to pray and get confirmation of your answers.

I also have used a cd "LDS scriptures," which will give you every single reference to the word you search. This makes it easy when reading a talk by an apostle and a prophet to find scripture references. Every online reference system I've used has been nothing like this. It gives some verses and they are often just popular verses.

Opinions will not save but only the truth of God. You must have that as the attitude in your heart. "What is the truth?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share