Question about the Spirit World

[circusboy01]

I know that we will not be able to be baptized in the spirit world, because we will not be flesh and bone. Which is why we do baptisms for the dead. But this just dawned on me. I always thought I could continue studying the Scriptures in the spirit world, but now I'm not so sure.

Because we will not be able to turn the pages of a book. I wonder if that is one of the reasons our progression will be slower in the next life than it is in this one. Then again perhaps reading scriptures is done differently in the spirit world. Perhaps there will be those there that know the complete scriptures, and they will recite them for us. Brother Ray

[Guest]

I know that we will not be able to be baptized in the spirit world, because we will not be flesh and bone. Which is why we do baptisms for the dead. But this just dawned on me. I always thought I could continue studying the Scriptures in the spirit world, but now I'm not so sure.

Because we will not be able to turn the pages of a book. I wonder if that is one of the reasons our progression will be slower in the next life than it is in this one. Then again perhaps reading scriptures is done differently in the spirit world. Perhaps there will be those there that know the complete scriptures, and they will recite them for us. Brother Ray

We will not have flesh and bone until the resurrection. We will just be Spirits without bodies.

[estradling75]

Interesting...

Lets start with what we know... The spirit world is roughly divided into two parts, Paradise and Prison, there are some very strong parallels to the standard Christan concepts of Heaven and Hell.

We also know that all the people in the spirit world view the absence from their bodies as a form of bondage (even the righteous)

We also know that until the coming of Christ their was no missionary work being done in the spirit world. Why did this take so long? I mean God has had no problem calling and empowering people to act in his name before. So I think it would be safe to assume it took something only Christ could do to open that door.

Now we could speculate on something new/unknown about Christ that made it possible, but that would pretty much end the discussion. What if we focus on something that we already know about Christ and see if that could be the answer.

What if it was the resurrection that opened that door? No one resurrected before Christ, but once Christ resurrected the morning of the first resurrection began and other righteous dead could and did follow.

These righteous dead would have been the spirits Christ went and visited while he was dead. They got their mission and instruction from him. The beginning of the Spirits in Paradise mission to Spirits in Prison also happens at the same time as their resurrection. Perhaps that is not just happenstance. perhaps that is what enabled it?

[estradling75]

Are you sure about that? I know baptisms were done before Christ came, with all that those symbolized,

On second thought... maybe not... I was basing it off D&C 138: 30-31

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

I took that to mean that it was the first time it was so organized and authority granted. That is because I have a hard time seeing the ancient Patriarchs, and prophets being unable to stay true, and death isn't a factor anymore. So it seems unlikely to me that Christ had to reorganize something. But perhaps I am missing something on how things happen in the spirit world

What work was done in the temples before Christ came?

Living ordinances, like now. Living individual could go and get their own ordinances. And stuff related to the Law of Moses

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I have a question that I dont necessrily have an answer to. Who says that even though we do not have a body, that it means that we can't physically touch and move things? Do we necessarily have to have the sense of touch? We can still do things, but just lack the feeling? I think we often think of Spirits almost like ghosts(like casper) when no where in the scriptures does that seem to be indicated.

just food for thought

[james12]

If everyone would forgive me the length of this post and the number of quotes, but I think this is some interesting and valuable information on the spirit world. I believe they shed needed light on this important subject.

First, our interaction with others in the spirit world:

Spirits are just as familiar with spirits as bodies are with bodies, though spirits are composed of matter so refined as not to be tangible to this coarser organization. (Discourses of Brigham Young, 379)

The problem with trying to touch a spirit has everything to do with our courser, unrefined, substance and a spirits more refined matter. There exists no problem with spirits touching spirits it is a sectarian notion for which the LDS must do away with.

Again from Brigham Young on the same topic:

When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication with one another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things. You will there see that those spirits we are speaking of are active; they sleep not. And you will learn that they are striving with all their might—laboring and toiling diligently as any individual would to accomplish an act in this world (DBY, 380).

In the spirit world everything will appear as natural as it does here. There is not problem with holding items, there is no problem with touching other spirits.

Estradling brings up the issue of spirits viewing the absence of their bodies as bondage. But the bondage is not because spirits are unable to grasp objects. The absence has to do with how our body is able to magnify our spirit. Our body is able to intensify our joys and our griefs and enable us to progress more quickly. This I believe is what we will miss in the next life. This is what we will be yearning for.

Regarding the separation of Paradise and Prison in the spirit world Bruce R. McConkie shared the following:

Until the death of Christ these two spirit abodes [paradise and hell] were separated by a great gulf, with the intermingling of their respective inhabitants strictly forbidden (Luke 16:19-31). After our Lord bridged the gulf between the two (1 Pet. 3:18-21; Moses 7:37-39), the affairs of his kingdom in the spirit world were so arranged that righteous spirits began teaching the gospel to wicked ones" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 762).

So while there is a divide I believe it is now primarily due to choice.

Last, just a quote from Heber C. Kimball who spoke at the funeral of Jedediah M. Grant (a member of the first presidency) regarding president Grant's visit to the spirit world. I love the image of paradise he paints. It makes me want to leave this world today, for a far better one.

He said to me, brother Heber, I have been into the spirit world two nights in succession, and, of all the dreads that ever came across me, the worst was to have to again return to my body, though I had to do it. But O, says he, the order and government that were there! When in the spirit world, I saw the order of righteous men and women; beheld them organized in their several grades, and there appeared to be no obstruction to my vision; I could see every man and woman in their grade and order. I looked to see whether there was any disorder there, but there was none; neither could I see any death nor any darkness, disorder or confusion. He said that the people he there saw were organized in family capacities; and when he looked at them he saw grade after grade, and all were organized and in perfect harmony. He would mention one item after another and say, “Why, it is just as brother Brigham says it is; it is just as he has told us many a time.”

He also spoke of the buildings he saw there, remarking that the Lord gave Solomon wisdom and poured gold and silver into his hands that he might display his skill and ability, and said that the temple erected by Solomon was much inferior to the most ordinary buildings he saw in the spirit world.

In regard to gardens, says brother Grant, “I have seen good gardens on this earth, but I never saw any to compare with those that were there. I saw flowers of numerous kinds, and some with from fifty to a hundred different colored flowers growing upon one stalk.” We have many kinds of flowers on the earth, and I suppose those very articles came from heaven, or they would not be here.

After mentioning the things that he had seen, he spoke of how much he disliked to return and resume his body, after having seen the beauty and glory of the spirit world, where the righteous spirits are gathered together. (Kimball, Heber C. Journal of Discourses. 4:135-138)

[circusboy01]

We will not have flesh and bone until the resurrection. We will just be Spirits without bodies.

I realize that. It says so in my first sentence. My question is will we be able to read scriptures in the spirit world, since we will not have a way to turn the pages of s biook

Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

We will not have flesh and bone until the resurrection. We will just be Spirits without bodies.

I realize that. It says so in my first sentence. My question is will we be able to read scriptures in the spirit world, since we will not have a way to turn the pages of s biook

Brother Ray

I got distracted. Sorry if I sent this post twice.

[Blackmarch]

I know that we will not be able to be baptized in the spirit world, because we will not be flesh and bone. Which is why we do baptisms for the dead. But this just dawned on me. I always thought I could continue studying the Scriptures in the spirit world, but now I'm not so sure.

Because we will not be able to turn the pages of a book. I wonder if that is one of the reasons our progression will be slower in the next life than it is in this one. Then again perhaps reading scriptures is done differently in the spirit world. Perhaps there will be those there that know the complete scriptures, and they will recite them for us. Brother Ray

Whether there will be an actual some sort of text source i don't know... however the righteous will have access to the sources of scripture material.. ie the individuals who wrote it themselves. I'd also wager our ability to recall will be much much keener.

[Traveler]

I realize that. It says so in my first sentence. My question is will we be able to read scriptures in the spirit world, since we will not have a way to turn the pages of s biook

Brother Ray

We will be able to read scripture and a great deal more - see D&C 62:3

(don't you just love it that we - LDS have so much more in scripture?)

The Traveler

[circusboy01]

I think that instead of reading scriptures, we will be able to actually see them - through visions.... at least I think these visions all happened in the spirit world:

(Old Testament | Ezekiel 37:1)

1 THE hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

(New Testament | Revelation 4:1 - 2)

1 AFTER this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

that's just a guess though. I think things are harder in the spirit world, because everything is just a vision, a thought, a idea - rather than being a reality.... the difference between someone saying "I love you enough to die for you" (just a good thought), vs. someone actually dieing for you (the physical reality of it). I think it would be harder to convince yourself that you have had a change of heart, or that someone really loves you, or that anything is real without the physical acts to verify what is actually there... "faith without works is dead" - I think without a physical body, you can't really do any of the works if that makes sense? That's just my speculation on it though.

That would be great.Anything that would let us continue to study, and ponder the scriptures would be wonderful Brother Ray

[skippy740]

Let us also remember that there are Prophets and Apostles in the spirit world as well... those that WROTE the scriptures.

[circusboy01]

I have a question that I dont necessrily have an answer to. Who says that even though we do not have a body, that it means that we can't physically touch and move things?

I have a question that I dont necessrily have an answer to. Who says that even though we do not have a body, that it means that we can't physically touch and move things? Do we necessarily have to have the sense of touch? We can still do things, but just lack the feeling? I think we often think of Spirits almost like ghosts(like casper) when no where in the scriptures does that seem to be indicated.

just food for thought

It just seems to make sense to me, that if we aren't able to Baptize, while we are in our spirit bodies that we would not be able to do other things that would require touch and feel.

If we can, somehow, physically touch and move things while in our spirit state, then why do the living have to do Baptisms for the dead? Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

If everyone would forgive me the length of this post and the number of quotes, but I think this is some interesting and valuable information on the spirit world. I believe they shed needed light on this important subject.

First, our interaction with others in the spirit world:

The problem with trying to touch a spirit has everything to do with our courser, unrefined, substance and a spirits more refined matter. There exists no problem with spirits touching spirits it is a sectarian notion for which the LDS must do away with.

Again from Brigham Young on the same topic: In the spirit world everything will appear as natural as it does here. There is not problem with holding items, there is no problem with touching other spirits.

Estradling brings up the issue of spirits viewing the absence of their bodies as bondage. But the bondage is not because spirits are unable to grasp objects. The absence has to do with how our body is able to magnify our spirit. Our body is able to intensify our joys and our griefs and enable us to progress more quickly. This I believe is what we will miss in the next life. This is what we will be yearning for.

Regarding the separation of Paradise and Prison in the spirit world Bruce R. McConkie shared the following: So while there is a divide I believe it is now primarily due to choice.

Last, just a quote from Heber C. Kimball who spoke at the funeral of Jedediah M. Grant (a member of the first presidency) regarding president Grant's visit to the spirit world. I love the image of paradise he paints. It makes me want to leave this world today, for a far better one.

So if we can touch and interact with one another in the spirit world. That would mean we actually could do Baptisms. Could it be that, although we can perform Baptisms while in our spirit forms. Gods law forbids it, and that is why the living perform Baptisms for the dead? Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Let us also remember that there are Prophets and Apostles in the spirit world as well... those that WROTE the scriptures.

Thank you for reminding me. I'm sure they would be glad to help us study, and ponder the scriptures. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Whether there will be an actual some sort of text source i don't know... however the righteous will have access to the sources of scripture material.. ie the individuals who wrote it themselves. I'd also wager our ability to recall will be much much keener.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Brother Ray.

[circusboy01]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts. You have all helped but my mind at ease

[THIRDpersonviewer]

So if we can touch and interact with one another in the spirit world. That would mean we actually could do Baptisms. Could it be that, although we can perform Baptisms while in our spirit forms. Gods law forbids it, and that is why the living perform Baptisms for the dead? Brother Ray

Yes, I can see in theory, we would physically be able to perform a baptism. But like james was explaining, it would not be in the same medium as the physical body.

The commandment is for us to be baptized with a physical body here in this life. After the resurrection and this life are the only times we have a physical body.

For those who pass on, it is still necessary that the physical body be baptized, so it is done by proxy in temple.

Does that make sense?

Edited January 17, 2013 by THIRDpersonviewer

[james12]

So if we can touch and interact with one another in the spirit world. That would mean we actually could do Baptisms. Could it be that, although we can perform Baptisms while in our spirit forms. Gods law forbids it, and that is why the living perform Baptisms for the dead? Brother Ray

We know so little of what happens in the spirit world. Who is to say what important ordinances are performed there? What might the symbolism of baptism mean to one who has died but is longing to receive a body? What meaning might the endowment posses? I suspect, but do not know, that ceremony, ritual, and ordinances are continued well beyond this life. It may be that such things are as eternal as the life of the soul.

Perhaps in the next life we will understand more fully what Christ has done for us or what he has given us. What if our gratitude was so profound, and our longing so great that we could not express our emotion? What if no poet could pen or word describe how we felt? What would be left? Here is some of what the scriptures say, and it looks an awfully lot like ceremony.

“And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.”

"Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there."

[Trevor92]

If somebody wouldn't mind indulging me, I have a related question regarding baptism for the dead. Please let me know if I have this straight (I'm relatively new to LDS theology): In the spirit world, those who have died without receiving the gospel are given the chance to receive the gospel, but cannot be baptized (or receive other ordinances). Therefore, in order to be baptized, someone on Earth must be baptized as a proxy for them.

Is that correct? Or is it that those in the spirit world cannot receive the gospel unless they are baptized by proxy on Earth?

At any rate, what if not everyone is baptized by proxy by the time of the resurrection? That seems extremely likely, given the number of people who have lived on the Earth and the likelihood that some of them will be overlooked even if there were enough time to do everybody.

Got this quote from a BYU source:

When the Twelve Apostles chosen in Joseph Smith's day were instructed to initiate these ordinances in Nauvoo in 1842, they soon recognized that it was the beginning of an immense work and that to administer all the ordinances of the gospel to the hosts of the dead was no easy task. They asked if there was some other way. The Prophet Joseph replied, "The laws of the Lord are immutable, we must act in perfect compliance with what is revealed to us. We need not expect to do this vast work for the dead in a short time. I expect it will take at least a thousand years" (Millennial Star 37:66).

So then the resurrection is at least 1000 years away?

Pardon my terrible ignorance, any help is much appreciated.