Really Need Help...Long and Detailed Sorry

[synergy13]

Hi All,

Let me start by saying I am an endowed, divorced mother of 3. Up until 3 years ago, my life was seemingly perfect. I had an eternal marriage with someone who I thought was happy and we got along great. We have three amazingly great kids. My husband had been struggling with some things and I caught him doing something he shouldn't be. I knew he had done this before but he told me he was done doing it then two weeks before my son's baptism, I caught him again.

Come to find out, he may have also had a porn addiction and maybe cheated, according to the Bishop's guess, however none of these claims can be substantiated and really do not matter. He is a much better person than I, I am finding out.

That's the back story. I don't drink, I don't watch rated r movies, I attend church weekly, and I do my best. But I fell hard. Here's the story. Flash forward to when our divorce is final, I met a friend whose husband went through the same thing shortly before my divorce. We became quick friends. In fact, a codependence developed and it led to a sexual relationship. She was primary president at the time and we both were very involved and what some would consider good latter day saints. Our sexual relations were very sporadic and few in the 2.5 years because we would both try really hard not to act on our feelings. There are no excuses for our behavior, it was wrong, it was sick, and we are both hurting now.

Here are the questions that I am wondering about. When my husband left, everyone in the ward heard what he had done through the elder's quorum president. It wasn't fair to my husband at all. I am worried by going to the bishop and dealing with this that it will get out in the community and my kids and my friends kids will be affected. Each set of kids have already been torn up by their dads leaving in the first place and these kids don't need any more. Being ex'd or disfellowshipped is probably the discipline she and I would receive.

While I don't care about the public humiliation for me, I do care about the innocent, the kids, in this case. For those who say I should have thought about this before I acted immorally, you are right. I have read M o F, I have read Falling to Heaven, I have read Infinite Atonement. I am fasting every Sunday to know what to do. I went to counseling for a few months. I discussed this with my LDS counselor who also thought it might be best not to say anything to the Bishop. I just want to do whatever it takes to get back to my HF so I can be with my kids. But I don't want them hurt anymore. Both she and I did go to the Bishop at one time about this but since neither bishop asked who with, we left it alone. I told my bishop it was a friend but deliberately left out that the friend was a woman. She did the same.

My other question is what is the process if I do confess. Does it go to a Bishop court first then somewhere else? Will I have to let the Bishop know her name? If you are ex'd or disfellowshipped, who ends up knowing? Will our kids all know? I know the handbook talks about making an annotation on the records to to not have callings with kids. The handbook also says that the second most important things is to protect the innocent.

My friend and I have no contact now but live in the same community. It was the tragic fallout and consequence to sin. I had and still struggle with hard feelings toward her due to the fact that she was the one that initiated the start of the sexual relationship and I know that I can't blame her and need to forgive her. I called her a hypocrite because she kept going to the temple in the midst of it (after telling her bishop about us but leaving the detail that I am a woman out). I have written an entire blog in one month's time about my journey through repentance and forgiveness, but much to no avail in knowing what to do in this case.

Please any help would be appreciated. As much as I deserve judgement, please try not to judge me. I do my best and just fell really hard.

[synergy13]

Oops, also, what happens if you die during excommunication and your sealings to your kids, etc. I know it doesn't make a difference if you are unworthy of the blessings anyway, just wondering if you are in the process of repentance, what happens.

[Windseeker]

Well all I can say is my heart goes out to you. I'm remarried after my wife left me and our 4 kids. It's been really hard both before, during and now adjusting to a mixed marriage.

This question has been asked before and I'm sorry I don't have the exact details but it sounds like you are contrite and repentent and really care about your kids and despite what you have gone thru have great faith. The fact it was a women is not going to make much difference IMHO.

I think you are making the right decision to let go of this and place this burden on the Lord. I don't think you will regret it at all.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Windseeker

[Guest gopecon]

Synergy, please go to your bishop. He can help you to fully repent of this. There is a way back - that's the beauty of the Atonement. I don't know if he will need to know about your friend's name. As far as who needs to know about the discipline you may be subjected to...No one needs to know the details but the bishop, and anyone who may be involved in a disciplinary council. He may advise the RS pres that you cannot hold callings, etc. for a time, but the details should remain strictly confidential on a need to know basis. As far as being able to work with children again (once your probation is over), based on what you said here that should not be an issue. I think that the only people who have that type of notation are those who have abused/endangered them in the past. Sexual sin with a consenting adult should have no effect on working with kids.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Synergy,

If we met in person, I would give you a big hug to reassure you that I do not judge you, and I am sorry for the difficult situation that you are now in.

I can see you are hurting and that breaks my heart. If I a stranger and a mere mortal, who has not learned charity yet (though I try) can care about your pain and reach out to you, then think of the love that the Savior has for you. He loves you. He wants to heal you.

I just read a wonderful definition of repentance from Thomas Keating, a Catholic Friar (imagine that). He says repent means change the direction you are looking for happiness. I think that certainly applies her. You made some choice, some actions because you were hurting and looking for happiness. However, they didn't make you happy. The Lord wants you to come back to Him to find true happiness.

You may be thinking, "I know all that. I read those books. . ." But the reason I mention these things again, is because we have been given specific steps for repentance for certain sins. I think yours is definately a case of needing to talk to your Bishop. You have to tell him the other person was a woman...not to do so is lying, and that would not be true repentance.

What will happen from there I really don't know. Isn't it wonderful that each case is individual? Your Bishop will seek inspiration specifically for YOU. To help you return to the Savior and to true happiness for you and your children.

I understand you are nervous that word will get out somehow...but it was the EQ Pres that said something about your husband...obviously I don't know all the details, but whatever happened I don't think it originated with the Bishop.

I believe whatever path is chosen for you, whether it includes a Bishop's court or not...it will be handled discretely, lovingly and quietly. I believe this based on my experience that in all my years of attending the church I have never been aware of anyone having any sort of "church discipline" unless they shared it with me themselves.

The most important thing here if for you to return to the Lord. He loves you, He wants to be part of your life and help you find joy. Trust Him, follow that path He has designated for this sort of error. Your path back to the Lord starts with being completely honest with your Bishop.

You can do this. I know it won't be easy, but you won't be alone.

And just incase you didn't believe me the first time...

[Guest gopecon]

If you die "early" the Lord will be your judge. He knows if you are repentant. I believe that you can be rebaptized by proxy with permission.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

About your question regarding what will happen if you die while you are excommunicated? My personal opinion is that you will still have an opportunity to have your temple blessings reinstated when you are ready. I believe that because of something I read in The God Who Weeps by Terryl and Fiona Givens from Deseret Book.

I would quote it for you, but I think it is more powerful in context...and quoting a whole chapter here would surely violate some copyright law. It is really worth getting the book and reading the whole chapter. Then you will probably want to read the rest of the book! It is so beautiful and reassuring...a balm of Gilead for our wounded hearts and/or questioning minds.

[Anddenex]

If you want to be in good standing with the Lord and our Heavenly Father I wouldn't listen to your LDS counselor.

The first step is to confess your sins before an authorized priesthood holder. This would be your Bishop. The Bishop would need to know in detail how often the transgression occurred, and how recent the transgression has been.

The Bishop then would begin to make decision as to whether or not the transgression should receive an informal discipline or a formal disciplinary council.

The Bishop will provide you with counsel regarding informing your family members.

If a person dies while in the process of repenting, although excommunicated, then they are in the tender mercies of the Lord. Only the Lord knows this question because he truly know the thoughts, heart, and mind of the individual.

[synergy13]

Thank you for your replies...

My husbands sins did get out through the Bishop, that's why I am worried. He told the EQ President who then told his presidency, which then my husband left.

I appreciate the compassion shown here. There are millions of excuses and justifications for my behavior none of which satisfy me or my God.

My main intention for not talking to the Bishop is to protect the kids who have already had to go through a dad leaving them and hearing the rumors about them. To have a porn addict, weed smoking dad, and a lesbian mom cannot be good for an 11, 13, and 15 year old to hear.

My other concern is my Bishop actually knows my friend. And he is going to be released in the next month or two. How does that work if you start with one bishop and then he's released. Our stake is very by the book old school. We are even counseled to not wear shorts or capris. Which is fine with me, I won't have to shave as much lol. But they are very Boyd K Packer like in stance which scares me they wont' see my heart.

Sorry to rant. Thank you again for your kindness, I broke into tears hearing all of your replies.

[synergy13]

Oh, and I am not a lesbian and don't have tendencies, I was saying that's how the news spreads around communities, not that I am someone who is trying not to act on tendencies.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

My husbands sins did get out through the Bishop, that's why I am worried. He told the EQ President who then told his presidency, which then my husband left.

That should not have happened. If I were you, I would talk to the Stake President about that incident and your concerns about sharing anything with your Bishop in light of this incident.

But they are very Boyd K Packer like in stance which scares me they wont' see my heart.

I think I understand what you are saying. I agree that there are many different personalities within the church, and the Lord does use imperfect humans to move his work forward. All I can say though, is come what may trust the Lord. He will be with you every step, come what may.

[Anddenex]

Thank you for your replies...

My husbands sins did get out through the Bishop, that's why I am worried. He told the EQ President who then told his presidency, which then my husband left.

That is truly unfortunate to hear. The Bishop shouldn't have informed anyone, besides those involved in the disciplinary council, assuming he had one.

The Bishop, if no disciplinary council is given, should be the only person who knows what is happening and the worthiness issues of the ward members they counsel.

As a member of the Bishopric, in our ward, I have no clue regarding the specific sins of members. I only know if they are unworthy of specific tasks, callings, etc...

The only time I know is when I am invited to a disciplinary council, and when I know, I am under strict guidelines before the Lord to not divulge anything to anybody outside of these councils.

My other concern is my Bishop actually knows my friend. And he is going to be released in the next month or two. How does that work if you start with one bishop and then he's released. Our stake is very by the book old school. We are even counseled to not wear shorts or capris. Which is fine with me, I won't have to shave as much lol. But they are very Boyd K Packer like in stance which scares me they wont' see my heart.

Sorry to rant. Thank you again for your kindness, I broke into tears hearing all of your replies.

I am sorry I don't get the relation to Boyd K. Packer and not seeing your heart. I think he would be one who would see your heart better than the majority of any bishops or stake presidents.

When a new Bishop is called he will need to know all the details you shared with the previous Bishop. He will probably have a meeting with the previous Bishop to discuss these types of matters.

Hopefully, this new Bishop, will understand the importance of privacy.

[synergy13]

Thank you, no bishop council was held with my husband at all and he shortly moved out of the ward after word was out. And then he moved to California and remarried the week after our divorce. Thank you for your reply. My reference to Boyd K Packer is just simply stating he seems to be a letter of the law person more than spirit of the law. I could be totally wrong but grew up next to his family. He probably would best see my heart. It was a flippant and errant judgement just to put the point across that our stake is very letter of the law.

I hope and pray that the new bishop understands privacy as well.

[Windseeker]

When I went thru all my struggles my Bishop prior to that seemed very strict, a matter of fact I didn't like him because he seemed too stern. Several times he would stop and correct me when I was exercising my Priesthood and once when he did it my Dad (former Bishop) was there and even told me after that the Bishop didn't need to correct me like that. I always felt intimidated by him.

So when my family started falling apart I was reluctant to go to him. My wife (at the time) was involved in very serious transgressions, stealing money, traveling the country and hooking up with strange people she met online, living with two men etc..

But I tell you, in the meetings we held where this Bishop wept and plead with her for our family I believe I saw in him the face of our Savior. I've never felt such love, compassion, tenderness and forgiveness from a Church leader.

Even though he is far away, I love this man.

So I totally understand what you meant with the Boyd K Packer reference. He seems very stern but I bet he's allot like my former Bishop when dealing with things on a personal basis.

[synergy13]

@Windseeker, maybe it's the prideful part of me that is scared to death of this getting out in our small community and killing my kids, as a mom our first instinct is to protect them. i am still confused on if it SHOULD be confessed to the bishop. Is your opinion you expressed in your first post based on any experience in bishoprics or councils or hearsay with others, or gut feeling?

Of course under different circumstances I would say definitely I should. Maybe I'm just justifying.

Also, does anyone know if they will contact the other party's bishop and let them know what's going on?

[classylady]

Children are resilient. My husband's ex was excommunicated for having several affairs while they were married. Their two children of course still love their mother. They are compassionate. They are forgiving and understanding. More than anything they want there mother to come back into the church. If you were excommunicated or disfellowshipped, I would tell the children that you can't take the sacrament for awhile, and it is an issue you are working on. Offer them your testimony of the Atonement and of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They will see you as someone to emulate, someone who loves the Lord and the Gospel.

[skippy740]

I need to help clarify something for this thread:

It is important that you disclose and confess that your transgression was with a woman.

Without disclosing this, you are not giving a full confession and because it was a same-sex act, it may/will have different consequences.

I am mentioning this to keep current just with the questions that missionaries ask for baptism.

Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

See page 4:

http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGospel___19_12_BaptismAndConfirmation__36617_eng_019.pdf

Due to the length of time, I would consider this to be a kind of 'relationship' that needs disclosure.

We are supportive and I can tell that you are sorrowful, but I would not omit this key piece of information. It will haunt you if you don't make a full confession.

We're here for you.

Edited January 16, 2013 by skippy740

[synergy13]

Few more questions....

1)Who are invited to the bishops council?

2) Does what happen dictate if it goes to a stake discipline council? Or what constitutes one going to a bishop council vs. stake council?

[classylady]

I could be wrong, but I believe women aren't required to go to a Stake Council.

[Vort]

Our stake is very by the book old school. ... But they are very Boyd K Packer like in stance which scares me they wont' see my heart.

Boyd K. Packer is one of the greatest, most noble, and most loving men of this generation. You have been listening to the wrong people to make you think otherwise.

Oh, and I am not a lesbian and don't have tendencies

This is obviously untrue. You may not identify as a lesbian, but your activities were lesbian activities. Please don't try to deny the full import of what you have done. It only makes things worse.

If the bishop told the EQ President about your husband, he probably violated his duty as a bishop. (I say "probably" because, depending on what your husband did and what the situation was with the EQ Pres, it's possible the bishop was justified.) In any case, the EQ Pres had no business opening his mouth. Those in leadership who betray confidences will surely stand condemned before God.

If your husband was excommunicated, it was not done by your bishop. It was done by your stake president. Surely you know this, so I'm wondering how you forgot it.

Few more questions....

1)Who are invited to the bishops council?

2) Does what happen dictate if it goes to a stake discipline council? Or what constitutes one going to a bishop council vs. stake council?

You are not a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, so the stake president will not judge you unless your bishop asks him to do so. Your bishop will take care of any and all disciplinary proceedings.

That's the limit of my knowledge about excommunication. I do not know who attends a bishop's council, though I have always assumed it's just the bishop and the confessor.

[synergy13]

Thank you Vort, I appreciate your comments. To clear a few things up...

Boyd K. Packer is one of the greatest, most noble, and most loving men of this generation. You have been listening to the wrong people to make you think otherwise.

Yes, I corrected this in an earlier post.

This is obviously untrue. You may not identify as a lesbian, but your activities were lesbian activities. Please don't try to deny the full import of what you have done. It only makes things worse.

Yes, I understand the acts were. Not sure how much you have been reading, I am not denying anything and am very forthcoming. I was pointing out that after going to counseling that my counselor said that I don't have Same Sex Attraction or Lesbian tendencies and that it was a circumstantial relationship, not one I sought out due to attraction of the opposite sex.

If the bishop told the EQ President about your husband, he probably violated his duty as a bishop. (I say "probably" because, depending on what your husband did and what the situation was with the EQ Pres, it's possible the bishop was justified.) In any case, the EQ Pres had no business opening his mouth. Those in leadership who betray confidences will surely stand condemned before God.

If your husband was excommunicated, it was not done by your bishop. It was done by your stake president. Surely you know this, so I'm wondering how you forgot it.

I never mentioned he was excommunicated because he wasn't. He took off before any church discipline could take place. He moved three times to avoid bishops. I don't know if he has ever been through one.

Thank you for everyone's willingness to share their knowledge, I am so appreciative of it.

Edited January 17, 2013 by skippy740

[Vort]

I was pointing out that after going to counseling that my counselor said that I don't have Same Sex Attraction or Lesbian tendencies and that it was a circumstantial relationship, not one I sought out due to attraction of the opposite sex.

I see. I assume you are perfectly able to tell whether you enjoy having sex with women, without a counselor telling you how you feel. My point was that in talking with a bishop, you should not seek to hide the exact nature of your fornication from the bishop with the thought that "I'm not really a lesbian, so therefore it doesn't matter." It probably does matter, and in any case that is for the Lord and his appointed judge (your bishop) to decide.

I never mentioned he was excommunicated because he wasn't. He took off before any church discipline could take place. He moved three times to avoid bishops. I don't know if he has ever been through one.

Thanks for the clarification. The standard rule (as I understand it) is that the stake president, who is the man who holds the keys of leadership for all Melchizedek Priesthood holders in a stake, must preside at any excommunication proceeding for a Melchizedek Priesthood holder. Any Church member who does not hold the Melchizedek Priesthood is handled at the ward level by the bishop. So your bishop will take care of your case, and will consult the stake president only if he feels the need to do so. (You are free to go talk to your stake president, too, if you wish. I am guessing he will listen carefully and compassionately to what you say, then refer you to your bishop, but that's just a guess.)

Good luck to you, and also to your ex-husband, but most of all to your children. You must do whatever it takes to be cleansed of these sins. I doubt your children will need to know the details, though. Your attitude toward the Church and any discipline toward you will be the overwhelming factor in determining how your children get through it.

[Magen_Avot]

synergy, things can get pretty messed up in our minds, especially when we feel there are circumstances that cause us to feel that we will be betrayed by "the system",... whether or not the fears are real.

I would suggest this, even for myself, to just cut away everything else and consider the path you need/should take to make your heart/mind/life right before the Lord. Repentance is just the first few steps, as difficult as they may seem.

Whatever else happens... forgive (others and yourself). Easier said than done, until it's done, but the pain people cause may linger. How long depends, but you should be assertive and forthcommiong about things to the Bishop if it gets out. The reality you can know later is that any pain will all be as nothing. Absolutely nothing. I don't mean forgotten, but in comparing where you were and where you rise to. I won't lie, it can be embarassing, painful, difficult and seemingly endless, until "that" moment. That moment when the Savior calls you friend.

There's no time like the present to tell Him you want to come to know Him. Ask Him into your heart,... your very life. Seek to bend your will to His, ask for help in changing your attitudes. Just don't stop at repenting so far as the church is concerned, we are talking about YOU and your relationship with Christ! This is soooooooo worth it.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Magen_Avot
clarity

[kapikui]

What will most likely happen if you go to your bishop will go about like this. You will tell him. He will decide if it merits a disciplinary council or something lesser. If it does not, (in your case, it most likely will due to the nature of the act), he will consider some other type of probation. Most likely this will take some time and consideration, during which time he will most likely council with the Stake Presidency. If he decides on a council, you will receive a formal letter from the bishop with the time, date and place of the council. You will generally find the Bishop, both his counselors and the ward clerk in attendance. The ward clerk is there only to keep a record that will go to the stake and church levels.

As far as those who will find out, those in attendance, of course will know. The Stake presidency, and high council will also know the details as well. Some people in Salt Lake who handle such things administratively may also find out, but they most likely don't know you and handle enough of these that you're just another name to them.

The elders quorum president may need to know about the verdict, certainly he needs to know for elders, but for women this is less likely. In your case the Relief Society president may need to know this information. Not the details, but just that you are not eligible for callings. If you are excommunicated, more will likely find out, as that's a somewhat bigger deal, but for disfellowshipment even the parents of adult children living in the ward won't be told.

You will be asked for the name of the person with whom you had the inappropriate relationship. This is so she can also repent. I don't know how things will be for her if she is called in about it when you confess, or conversely if she confesses first.

Much of what will happen in the bishop's court will depend upon how repentant you are, so speculation as to whether you will be disfellowshipped or excommunicated is fruitless. They will pray about it and let the Lord decide.

If you are excommunicated or disfellowshipped you do retain the right to appeal to the High council, and eventually to the First Presidency. At each stage they can uphold it or overturn.

Since you are not a Melchizedek priesthood holder the Bishop can excommunicate. If you were, he would council with the stake presidency. Since only the Stake President can excommunicate a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, they would then decide whether to hold the court at the Ward or Stake level. If they held it at the ward level, they could not excommunicate, but only disfellowship. Of course they could decide during the course of the council that it may warrant excommunication and kick it back to the Stake level. This of course doesn't apply to you, but I include it for completeness sake.

I wish you the best and hope you get it worked out. Sexual sin is a rather difficult repentance process. It isn't fun, and can take a long time. In the end it is worth it. I do understand your concern about speaking to the bishop. I would second the recommendation to speaking with the stake president in general terms about your concerns with the bishop too.

[Dove]

If you believe that you bishop cannot keep your confidential confession, I wouldn't tell him. Can you go to the stake president or area authority, instead?

The bishop is absolutely not supposed to tell another single soul (besides the leaders over him, who should keep it confidential as well) about what you confess. And if everyone and their dog found out about your husband's confession, a serous breach of confidence happened.

I have had a way different experience of "confessing" to my bishops in the past. I had my story told over the pulpit within weeks of telling it to my bishop. That bishop was then released shortly afterward (not related to telling my story over the pulpit) and the next bishop told his relief society president, who then spoke about it to a woman in the ward, etc., etc.....

I'm trying to caution you not to throw your caution to the wind and trust to a bishop who has already broken your husband's trust by telling the elders quorum president about what your husband confessed. This is a big red flag waving to let you know that more then likely your story will be told in like manner. Go to your stake president and explain to him why you won't go to the bishop about this......That he already told your husband's story and broke the confidentiality.

This is just my opinion/stance.

The best of wishes

Dove

Edited January 17, 2013 by Dove