Do you believe people can change?


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I believe anyone can change, but few actually do. Within the Church, I think repentance is more common but still outside the norm. Based on my own experience, not gospel doctrine. And I admit I may be overly pessimistic.

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I believe anyone can change, but few actually do. Within the Church, I think repentance is more common but still outside the norm. Based on my own experience, not gospel doctrine. And I admit I may be overly pessimistic.

Well let me put a spin of optimism to your pessimism. If you believe few actually do change out of anyone, that must be a significant number. There are a great number of people that fit into the category of "anyone" after all :) Within the LDS Church, it would be an even higher number :)

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Alma 5 teaches us that people can change. Alma, himself, exemplified this change, having been an anti-Christ and then calling upon Christ, Himself, to save him. AFterward, Alma was the catalyst for much good. The Anti-Nephi-Lehis also exemplified change. Thousands entered into a voluntary covenant and they kept it, even on pain of brutal death.

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When I think of people changing I think of two things. One is of course repentance, and turning completely away from sin. Yes, everyone can change in this sense.

Then there is who we are. We come to earth as full grown spirits into our bodies as babies. Our personalities are in place. I don't believe we can change our personalities.

As I read through this thread something came to mine which I heard my grandfather say frequently was "The older you get the more like yourself you become." The older I get the more I believe this is true both in our personalities but also in our sins. Habits our hard things to change especially the older we get.... and our sins often become habits.

Yet even when a sin is so ingrained in who we are, with and through Christ we can all change and forsake sin. First Christ turns our hearts, then the He changes our hearts....which are the center of our personalities.

I don't believe true and complete repentance or change can happen without the Savior.

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Star,

I would have thought the LDS idea of repentance is fairly similiar to general Christian one. However I have at times read some LDS express doubt or maybe dislike for death bed or last minute repentence. Whilst I will concede that a life of sin will generally harden a heart, I sitll believe that God calls to even the hardest heart or sometimes saves some from the very edge.

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Star,

I would have thought the LDS idea of repentance is fairly similiar to general Christian one. However I have at times read some LDS express doubt or maybe dislike for death bed or last minute repentence. Whilst I will concede that a life of sin will generally harden a heart, I sitll believe that God calls to even the hardest heart or sometimes saves some from the very edge.

Consider the case of Alma the Younger, excepting the fact he lived through it, his is a case of 'deathbed' confession, in that a lifetime (well, okay, we don't know when exactly he went off the rails) of sin up to that point was, to our knowledge at least, repented of relatively quickly. LDS, speaking of people, don't doubt that the someone mired in a life of sin for most of their life, if not all of their life up to that point, can repent,once again: Alma the Younger. The doubt is about the genuineness of such repentance, if they die there is not anyway for those here on Earth to see if they've forsaken their sins or just claimed they have. Genuine repentance changes, on the deathbed those fruits can't be seen by us.

And needless to say it would be a very ill advised thing to suggest people plan on deathbed repentance (for the same reason it is a bad idea to suggest people plan on sinning now and repenting later even if no deathbed is expected).

Edited by Dravin
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Star,

I would have thought the LDS idea of repentance is fairly similiar to general Christian one. However I have at times read some LDS express doubt or maybe dislike for death bed or last minute repentence. Whilst I will concede that a life of sin will generally harden a heart, I sitll believe that God calls to even the hardest heart or sometimes saves some from the very edge.

The problem with the idea of "deathbed repentance" is that it uses a faulty model of God and of salvation. "Deathbed repentance" assumes that God is a tallymaster, keeping a careful checklist of our misdeeds in order to punish us justly. Repentance, then, is an act that blanks the tally sheet.

This is false.

Repentance is the act of turning away from sin and becoming a new creature in Christ. Can this happen on one's deathbed? Yes, it's possible, but frankly it's highly unlikely. It is far more likely that it happens some time earlier. How would a "deathbed penitent" even know he has repented? How many people have "repented" before some serious or deathly event, only to find the event doesn't happen, and then have returned to their evils?

The traditional idea of "deathbed repentance" is similar to the mindset of emperor Constantine, who delayed his "baptism" (as he understood the term) until moments before his death so as to be clean and sinless on entering heaven. This is a naive, mechanistic, and ultimately false conception of repentance and baptism.

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My take of some deathbed repentance events, is that the person may have been sorrowful and feeling guilty for quite some time. At the deathbed, they finally "confess" the sin. They may have changed their life for the better long before the confession. In this scenario, I feel they have been repentant. They changed their life. But, they hadn't confessed to the sin.

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In the LDS religion there is the belief of repentance... "It is a change of mind and heart that gives us a fresh view about God, about ourselves, and about the world. It includes turning away from sin..". Repentance

I think change is possible but always up to the individual. I think the phrase "people never change" applies to those who decide to not change.

What do you believe?

I believe that it is the nature of intelligent living beings to change - I believe that change is unavoidable. It is not a question of if we change but what are we changing to - what are we becoming? Thus we are defined not so much by where we are but what we continue to struggle for.

There is an old saying - "The more things change the more they remain the same". Which in essence is saying the more we change the more consistent our changes become.

The Traveler

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  • 1 month later...

Yes, people can indeed change. I know it because I can look back at who I was 5 years ago to who I am now and see the change the Lord has wrought in me.

As for deathbed repentance, what about the law of restitution? Part of repentance is not only confessing and turning away from sin, but also seeking to repair the effects of your prior sins as much as possible.

When we read of Alma's spiritual rebirth following his sincere repentance, what do we see him doing? We see him going to all those he lead astray via his flattering false words seeking forgiveness, striving to teach them truth and convince how he had been wrong.

The thief who stole can upon repentance restore that which he stole. Yet can the murderer restore a life? The fornicator restore virginity?

There are sins that ultimately we can not no matter what we do provide full restitution to those we harm. For that the repentant sinner must then rely upon the grace and mercy of Christ to make up for what they themselves can not do.

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith - Repentance

“Hear it, all ye ends of the earth—all ye priests, all ye sinners, and all men. Repent! Repent! Obey the gospel. Turn to God.”

“Let us this very day begin anew, and now say, with all our hearts, we will forsake our sins and be righteous.”

“The infidel will grasp at every straw for help until death stares him in the face, and then his infidelity takes its flight, for the realities of the eternal world are resting upon him in mighty power; and when every earthly support and prop fails him, he then sensibly feels the eternal truths of the immortality of the soul. We should take warning and not wait for the death-bed to repent; as we see the infant taken away by death, so may the youth and middle aged, as well as the infant be suddenly called into eternity. Let this, then, prove as a warning to all not to procrastinate repentance, or wait till a death-bed, for it is the will of God that man should repent and serve Him in health, and in the strength and power of his mind, in order to secure His blessing, and not wait until he is called to die.”

Nevertheless

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith - Repentance

Our Heavenly Father is willing to forgive those who repent and return to Him with full purpose of heart.

In 1835 Joseph Smith received a letter from Harvey Whitlock, who had apostatized from the Church and desired to return to full fellowship. The Prophet responded: “I have received your letter of the 28th of September, 1835, and I have read it twice, and it gave me sensations that are better imagined than described; let it suffice that I say that the very flood gates of my heart were broken up—I could not refrain from weeping. I thank God that it has entered into your heart to try to return to the Lord, and to this people, if it so be that He will have mercy upon you. I have inquired of the Lord concerning your case; these words came to me:

“Revelation to Harvey Whitlock.

“‘Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—Let him who was my servant Harvey, return unto me, and unto the bosom of my Church, and forsake all the sins wherewith he has offended against me, and pursue from henceforth a virtuous and upright life, and remain under the direction of those whom I have appointed to be pillars and heads of my Church. And behold, saith the Lord your God, his sins shall be blotted out from under heaven, and shall be forgotten from among men, and shall not come up in mine ears, nor be recorded as a memorial against him, but I will lift him up, as out of deep mire, and he shall be exalted upon the high places, and shall be counted worthy to stand among princes, and shall yet be made a polished shaft in my quiver for bringing down the strongholds of wickedness among those who set themselves up on high, that they may take counsel against me, and against my anointed ones in the last days. Therefore, let him prepare himself speedily and come unto you, even to Kirtland. And inasmuch as he shall hearken unto all your counsel from henceforth, he shall be restored unto his former state, and shall be saved unto the uttermost, even as the Lord your God liveth. Amen.’

“Thus you see, my dear brother, the willingness of our heavenly Father to forgive sins, and restore to favor all those who are willing to humble themselves before Him, and confess their sins, and forsake them, and return to Him with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy, to serve Him to the end [see 2 Nephi 31:13].

“Marvel not that the Lord has condescended to speak from the heavens, and give you instructions whereby you may learn your duty. He has heard your prayers and witnessed your humility, and holds forth the hand of paternal affection for your return; the angels rejoice over you, while the Saints are willing to receive you again into fellowship.”

“There is never a time when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.”

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I believe a person can repent at any time. On the deathbed the repentance may well be real but sadly they have no time for it to be integrated into their lives. Fortunately they can continue with that repentance process later but with more difficulty.

I have seen peoples lives change with repentance. Some in major ways. Some in much smaller ways. Every time we repent we are changing no matter the 'size' of the sin. Generally the noticeable changes come after an accumulation of repentances. Fortunately God sees more clearly than we do. He sees and is pleased with each small change whether anyone else notices or not.

It is satan that tells us we can not change. It is satan that tells us that we have to become perfect all at once and not in steps. It is satan that tells us that we are who we are and that no matter what we are going to always be that same person. It is God that tells us we have the atonement and can become perfect. One step at a time, usually.

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People can and do change. I actually think that all of us are always changing whether we realize it or not. Changing because of actions, consequences, or events. I think embracing agency is the way we guide those changes.

I think the OP is defining change as "change for the better". In my experience with trying to help people change, I think its a complex business.

One thing I know is that people change because they want to or because not changing is too painful. Mostly the latter.

Another thing I know is that changing alone is hard. Changing with God's help is better. Changing with God's help and some angel friends too....that's the best.

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From President Monson:

During the 1940s and 1950s, an American prison warden, Clinton Duffy, was well known for his efforts to rehabilitate the men in his prison. Said one critic, “You should know that leopards don’t change their spots!”

Replied Warden Duffy, “You should know I don’t work with leopards. I work with men, and men change every day.” [bill Sands, The Seventh Step (1967), page 9]

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  • 1 month later...

People can change, only if they want to.

Asking for the desire to be able to change is a prayer that may be hard to pray. Jesus will give us the desire of our hearts, if we humbly ask. The problem in this world is not enough plain and precious gospel is preached. Speaking out against wrong is one step, the other is telling the Good News.

Who so ever will may come, if they truly desire their life changed .

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Many do not change.

Many say they want to, but don't

Many begin to change, but then revert

Many begin to change, revert, begin to change, revert

Whether the first-time offender, the one I've seen before several times, or the one facing a terminal illness, with only days or hours to live, I have to believe s/he can change, for I am no better...there, but for the grace of God, go I . . .

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  • 1 month later...

Many do not change.

Many say they want to, but don't

Many begin to change, but then revert

Many begin to change, revert, begin to change, revert

Whether the first-time offender, the one I've seen before several times, or the one facing a terminal illness, with only days or hours to live, I have to believe s/he can change, for I am no better...there, but for the grace of God, go I . . .

Paul struggled with this very human trait as well:

"For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing."

As far as being reconciled with God on one's deathbed, I think we have a very good example in the "good thief" who hung on a cross beside Jesus. It was there that he confessed that he was a sinner and recognized Jesus as the King of heaven, praying "remember me when you come into your kingdom". He was promised paradise that very day.

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I have observed people change and not always is the change for the better. I am convinced we all change. The word most often used in science is evolve. I love the concept of changing by evolving because in my experience seldom does one change completely in an instant but rather it seems to me that we all change gradually over time and become what we are becoming.

We are not born pianists we must evolve by study, effort and practice to become a pianists. Likewise I think that the "born again" concept prevalent in much of Christianity is misleading - at least as I have understood and observed. I believe the LDS concept (also taught by Christ and many modern religions) of seeds growing and developing is in my mind more complete and accurate symbol.

I realize that repentance is a change but in my observation it is best that we think of repenting not as a one time one and done effort but as a life time of daily effort to evolve.

The question in my mind is not if a person changes or not but to what end, if any, are we evolving? And again I find the LDS concept of all the most compelling.

The Traveler

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  • 7 months later...

See Vort's first signature quote for my p.o.v. on this.

But through the atonement we can change as well for the good.

I don't believe that even aspects of our personality cannot change as well, or that we just are who we are in any regard. Commitment and practice changes us, for the better for for the worse.

I would, in fact, contend that we cannot NOT change (double neg intended).

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  • 4 weeks later...

People can and do change . As followers of Christ all we can do is share the Gospel in a loving way and care enough for that person ( not just say i hope you stay warm, but give him clothes as well)so hopefully they will change their mind . These scripture shows that example well .

Matthew 7:7-15

New Living Translation (NLT)

Effective Prayer

7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

The Golden Rule

12 “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.

The Narrow Gate

13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[a] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

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I too believe that you can change for the good as well as for the bad. But with the Lords help we can do it, we need to work at it!! And with the Lord on our side in time it will happen. But some of us think we cant. Its part of our weakness. Example I try and try to lose weight but I find myself being tempted and some times I win and other times I lose I guess we all have different areas where we might fall into this category. I don't think we can change our personalities much, but if theres something we don't like about our selves we can work on change. Some things might take a life time or more to change, but change can happen. So don't stop trying, He knows your trying...And He loves us all soooooo very much and wants us to be successful.

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I too believe that you can change for the

good as well as for the bad. But with the Lords help we can do it, we need to work at it!! And with the Lord on our side in time it will happen. But some of us think we cant. Its part of our weakness. Example I try and try to lose weight but I find myself being tempted and some times I win and other times I lose I guess we all have different areas where we might fall into this category. I don't think we can change our personalities much, but if theres something we don't like about our selves we can work on change. Some things might take a life time or more to change, but change can happen. So don't stop trying, He knows your trying...And He loves us all soooooo very much and wants us to be successful.

I agree Roseslipper,

I think I forget sometimes that Jesus is rite there with me especially when I am at a low point in life . Back in 2006 I was diagnosed with a Melanoma and those were some rough times . But I found loads of scripture to help keep me anchored to the rock of my salvation. This one comes to mind first .

Psalm 139:1-12

New Living Translation (NLT)

Psalm 139

For the choir director: A psalm of David.

1 O Lord, you have examined my heart

and know everything about me.

2 You know when I sit down or stand up.

You know my thoughts even when I’m far away.

3 You see me when I travel

and when I rest at home.

You know everything I do.

4 You know what I am going to say

even before I say it, Lord.

5 You go before me and follow me.

You place your hand of blessing on my head.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

too great for me to understand!

7 I can never escape from your Spirit!

I can never get away from your presence!

8 If I go up to heaven, you are there;

if I go down to the grave,[a] you are there.

9 If I ride the wings of the morning,

if I dwell by the farthest oceans,

10 even there your hand will guide me,

and your strength will support me.

11 I could ask the darkness to hide me

and the light around me to become night—

12 but even in darkness I cannot hide from you.

To you the night shines as bright as day.

Darkness and light are the same to you.

One thing that has been a real blessing to me is , I try and focus less on how I feel and focus more on what Gods word says about me . I have cleared some tremendous obstacles these last few years by leaning on God's word . Here are a few

Deuteronomy 28:13

New Living Translation (NLT)

13 If you listen to these commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today, and if you carefully obey them, the Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you will always be on top and never at the bottom.

Deuteronomy 28:1-9

New Living Translation (NLT)

Blessings for Obedience

28 “If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully keep all his commands that I am giving you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the world. 2 You will experience all these blessings if you obey the Lord your God:

3 Your towns and your fields

will be blessed.

4 Your children and your crops

will be blessed.

The offspring of your herds and flocks

will be blessed.

5 Your fruit baskets and breadboards

will be blessed.

6 Wherever you go and whatever you do,

you will be blessed.

7 “The Lord will conquer your enemies when they attack you. They will attack you from one direction, but they will scatter from you in seven!

8 “The Lord will guarantee a blessing on everything you do and will fill your storehouses with grain. The Lord your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

9 “If you obey the commands of the Lord your God and walk in his ways, the Lord will establish you as his holy people as he swore he would do.

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