a deeply troubling quote from E McConkie

[Finrock]

Good evening antispatula! It is a pleasure to meet you. :)

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

I've debated internally now for the last few minutes on how to approach my post and I've yet to decide what is the best way. So, because I can't do this forever:

I'm most interested in understanding why this is "deeply troubling" or "horrifyingly contradictory" to you?

I can understand not understanding; because I don't understand. I guess I'm wondering what is deeply troubling or what in any of this doctrine or quote should cause someone to feel any sensation associated with horror?

I am also interested in understanding where you believe the contradiction exist. Do you mind making your argument more clear as to why there is a contradiction between the quote and what you state as the "gospel viewpoint"?

If I've misunderstood your point, please let me know. If you've already made this clear in another post, just point the way.

Please and thank you!

Regards,

Finrock

[HiJolly]

Enos 1

26 And I saw that I must soon go down to my grave, having been wrought upon by the power of God that I must preach and prophesy unto this people, and declare the word according to the truth which is in Christ. And I have declared it in all my days, and have rejoiced in it above that of the world.

27 And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen.

Ether 3

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

Ether 4

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

etc

etc

Very good points.

I'm probably not talking to anyone currently in this thread, but I'd like to point out something regarding spiritual knowledge, as given in the excellent scriptures above.

This is not secular knowledge. It is not scientific nor philosophical nor logical nor theological nor objectively verifiable. It cannot be measured or quantified by use of instruments or lab equipment.

It is spiritual knowledge, it is gnosis. It is characterized by an absolute, undiluted CERTAINTY that a thing is so, and not a certainty born of mental imbalance, but of spiritual light. This is the knowledge that the Holy Ghost gives us. And it may not be rational in a worldly way, but there is nothing more beautiful and uplifting than this.

When I am filled with such a beautiful sense of certainty, it is a gift indeed. And I know.

HiJolly

[Windseeker]

I find it a disturbing but not the reasons the OP mentions.

I like to think every member in the church is seeking knowledge thru faith and action in order to gain Eternal Life. Frankly I'm amazed and a little in awe every sunday to go and see all these people exercising their faith, rejecting the world and their selfishness and despite their struggles taking 3 hours out of their lives to worship.

When people speak of callings and elections made sure it makes me think of some elite club apart and above the faithful struggling members. This just seems to be the favorite topic of the angry know it all. You hear it more often from the "Snuffers" within the fold then from leaders.

I think of the amazing things that have occurred in my life and the lives of other all based on faith. We have plenty of examples of those who have first hand knowledge and experience with God and Angels where they "Know" yet they fail and they fail miserably. It seems a stretch to say every member that endured trials did so out of knowledge and not faith. Why refer to it a trial of faith. Did the early saints have great faith or great knowledge?

Personally I have a hard time making this oddly shaped doctrine fit into a gospel where we walk by faith, the meek shall inherit the earth and without Charity we are nothing.

For now the beautiful promises I recieved at my Baptism and in the Temple will have to do. I feel they are grand enough to carry me thru this life. Faithful members are all striving for salvation, seeking knowledge, striving to apply it and hoping to gain some kind of assurance in their lives not a select few.

[skalenfehl]

When people speak of callings and elections made sure it makes me think of some elite club apart and above the faithful struggling members. This just seems to be the favorite topic of the angry know it all. You hear it more often from the "Snuffers" within the fold then from leaders.

How can we be of one heart and one mind when people are thought of as such. How can I express how hard I have struggled in my life having been raised in an environment of abuse and dysfunctiion, having faced trials of ostracism and loneliness; of having nobody truly understand what I endure today but the Savior? How can I express the joy of the great blessings available to anyone that such things are overcome without being accused of elitism by one of 'my own'? Was I being elitist as a missionary for two years in a foreign country with a message about another testament of Jesus Christ; of a gospel where revelation is received by living prophets and apostles? Perhaps I was regarded as such by many who made no such claims about their own faiths.

[Windseeker]

I have the sneaking suspicion you didn't run around on your mission telling everyone that your calling and election has been made sure. So I’m not sure how this applies to you.

I'm just sharing how I've felt the few times it's been brought up in church.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Windseeker

[Windseeker]

I have the sneaking suspicion you didn't run around on your mission telling everyone that your calling and election has been made sure. So I’m not sure how this applies to you.

I'm just sharing how I've felt the few times it's been brought up in church.

[beefche]

Do you know people who have actually stated that their calling and election has been made sure? Cause, I'm pretty sure they are wrong, if they are spouting that out of their mouth to just anyone.

[estradling75]

I have the sneaking suspicion you didn't run around on your mission telling everyone that your calling and election has been made sure. So I’m not sure how this applies to you.

I'm just sharing how I've felt the few times it's been brought up in church.

Do you feel the same way about when temples are brought up? Or are you a member of that 'club' such as it might be called and have a problem seeing why those who haven been there yet might be jealous and call it an elitist club?

Because I think the comparison between Temple and Calling and Election is apt when comparing it to the reaction to those that have not yet had it.

People who haven't been to the Temple can have a sour grapes attitude toward those that do... Same I suppose with Calling and Election.

Some people who go to the Temple can cop an attitude thinking they are superior... And again I suppose it can also happen with those whom Calling and Election and been made sure (or at least come across that way)

[Vort]

Do you feel the same way about when temples are brought up? Or are you a member of that 'club' such as it might be called and have a problem seeing why those who haven been there yet might be jealous and call it an elitist club?

Because I think the comparison between Temple and Calling and Election is apt when comparing it to the reaction to those that have not yet had it.

People who haven't been to the Temple can have a sour grapes attitude toward those that do... Same I suppose with Calling and Election.

Some people who go to the Temple can cop an attitude thinking they are superior... And again I suppose it can also happen with those whom Calling and Election and been made sure (or at least come across that way)

But do you really suppose that someone who had received such a thing would go around bragging about it? I assume not. Then how would such a thing even ever happen?

[Windseeker]

Do you feel the same way about when temples are brought up? Or are you a member of that 'club' such as it might be called and have a problem seeing why those who haven been there yet might be jealous and call it an elitist club?

Because I think the comparison between Temple and Calling and Election is apt when comparing it to the reaction to those that have not yet had it.

People who haven't been to the Temple can have a sour grapes attitude toward those that do... Same I suppose with Calling and Election.

Some people who go to the Temple can cop an attitude thinking they are superior... And again I suppose it can also happen with those whom Calling and Election and been made sure (or at least come across that way)

If I'm coming across as sour grapes I apologize. I suppose it can sound like that.

The requirements to enter the temple are clear plus I've learned about it since I was in primary and it's not considered poor form to share our experiences and encourge others to partake of those blessings. I don't think it's as clear or as solid a doctrine as the temple. Case in point..look at me.

I feel good discussing the temple. I have not felt much comfort when hearing about the calling and election. I only feel confusion. I have allot to learn and perhaps allot of misunderstandings about it.

[estradling75]

But do you really suppose that someone who had received such a thing would go around bragging about it? I assume not. Then how would such a thing even ever happen?

I would hope not... I would hope that it would be treated as sacred if not more so then the Temple.

One could presume that anyone making the claim is full of it... But I dislike such blanket assumptions even if we feel it is going to be right 99% of the time (or something like that)

[Vort]

One could presume that anyone making the claim is full of it... But I dislike such blanket assumptions even if we feel it is going to be right 99% of the time (or something like that)

Nevertheless, this would be my default assumption, especially if the claim were a brag.

[HiJolly]

A year or two ago I posted here on this website an account of one who received their calling and election. I am 100% convinced that the experience was real, in no small part because, having had marvelous experiences of my own, the details of the telling matched perfectly not the exact events necessarily, but moreso the personal viewpoint and qualities of the sharing. FWIW.

[Just_A_Guy]

I feel good discussing the temple. I have not felt much comfort when hearing about the calling and election. I only feel confusion. I have allot to learn and perhaps allot of misunderstandings about it.

Windseeker, one thing to bear in mind is that there is "having your calling and election made sure", and then there is a temple ordinance associated with having your calling and election made sure. They aren't the same thing.

Just like not everyone who's confirmed immediately gets the Holy Ghost, or not everyone who receives the ordinances of the endowment immediately gets an infusion of the spiritual power associated with that ordinance--not everyone who gets their "special temple blessings" actually has their calling and election made sure.

My understanding is that for that last ordinance, a) you don't receive it alone--you receive it in conjunction with your spouse; and b) people who receive it are specifically charged not to tell anyone about receiving it.

In Brazil we would have summed it up this way: "Quem fala nao sabe, e quem sabe nao fala". In English: "Those who speak don't know; and those who know don't speak." There may be very limited exceptions to that rule under very intimate circumstances--maybe the example HiJolly references falls into that sphere--but I think, in general, it's a pretty accurate rule.

[Windseeker]

I listened to the first part of this and learned allot. I will listen to the next part as well.

Calling and Election - Part One | The Mormon Channel Q&A

I think I have a better understanding of it, still have some questions, but feel better about it.

[skalenfehl]

Part One and Part Two are excellently done from LDS mainstream. I'm glad to see the church shedding a greater light for the membership.

[PaPa]

I was reading about having your calling and your election made sure (after you have been promised Eternal Life) and came across this quote in the D&C student manual. So you know the context, this paragraph discusses the question "what happens if someone has his calling and election made sure, and then they live a sinful life (without commiting any unpardonable sins) and never repent before they die? Are they still promised Exaltation?

After they pay the price and suffer even as Christ did...in heaven I want nothing to do with justice, only mercy.

[bytor2112]

I take many things which Elder McConkie said decades ago with a grain of salt. The manual you reference is in dire need of updating and refinement, as more recent revelations and teachings do not necessarily agree with everything Elder McConkie wrote back then. Several other manuals that have been updated (such as Gospel Principles) have tended to replace most (if not all) of Elder McConkie's quotes with more recent GA quotes, often giving us a different nuance on the topic.

For the time period he lived in, he attempted to explain the gospel teachings to the best of his ability. With newer revelations that often change or at least update previous beliefs and understandings on gospel topics, we should remember that manuals from the Church are not equal to doctrine, the scriptures, or the current teachings given in General Conference.

Nothing in your comments disprove anything stated by Elder McConkie. They simply attempt to marginalize a great Apostle....I often scratch my head when you do this because you have done it so frequently. I still hear Elder McConkie quotes used frequently in General Conference and in teaching manuals.....and last I checked, The Standard Works still contain a great deal of elder McConkie's "inspired work".

Edited January 31, 2013 by bytor2112

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Nothing in your comments disprove anything stated by Elder McConkie. They simply attempt to marginalize a great Apostle....I often scratch my head when you do this because you have done it so frequently. I still here Elder McConkie quotes used frequently in General Conference and in teaching manuals.....and last I checked, The Standard Works still contain a great deal of elder McConkie's "inspired work".

I know there many people have differing views of Elder Bruce R McConkie. However I must testify that he is an apostle of Jesus Christ. He testified of Christ and salvation through Him. If it were not for Elder McConkie, then I would not be here right now, I would not have the testimony that I have. I am eternally grateful for his righteous service!

Not everything he said was perfectly worded or politically correct or whatever. He spoke without fear. He spoke as Christ spoke, as one having authority(he did have it). No one can speak like that unless they have charity(perfect love casteth out all fear). He was bold, and he would speak the truth. When he spoke I could feel the truth of his words and they gave me something to latch onto until I could study it properly to get a witness from God myself.

He was not perfect, but do you take Brigham Young's words with a grain of salt, do you take others(apostles or prophets) with a grain of salt?

[Guest]

He was not perfect, but do you take Brigham Young's words with a grain of salt, do you take others(apostles or prophets) with a grain of salt?

If Brigham Young was quoted to say chocolate ice cream is the best kind (he'd be right, but that's not the point), would I only eat chocolate ice cream? Anything outside of official declaration is a man's perspective, counsel, and/or opinion. Not Gospel truth. So in that respect, I do take their words with a grain of salt, or at least with an ounce of judicious thought.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

If Brigham Young was quoted to say chocolate ice cream is the best kind (he'd be right, but that's not the point), would I only eat chocolate ice cream? Anything outside of official declaration is a man's perspective, counsel, and/or opinion. Not Gospel truth. So in that respect, I do take their words with a grain of salt, or at least with an ounce of judicious thought.

I agree, I believe we should evaluate what people say, not just take things at face value. That was what Elder McConkie taught himself. We need to study for ourselves and receive the answer from God. However we should also not be dismissive of material. Until we determine that it isn't something worth putting our time into.

The thing that disturbs me is when people don't consider what was said to be of any worth. They don't even look or evaluate it beyond the 10 seconds after reading it or they realize after they are done reading, oh that was by Elder McConkie, I need to pass over this one. I mean seriously. There are certain names that people hear and then they toss away so many spiritual gems because of bigotry, ignorance, petty dislike, and other silly meaningless things. Brigham Young is one person, Elder McConkie another, and there are others.

If the point was to say that in the past some comments made by prior apostles, before they became apostles even, may have not had the same light that we now have so we evaluate what they said and determine if what they said is connected to the gospel. Then I would have no issue. However, Elder McConkie was singled out, he has been before, and I am tired of it. When I have so much to be grateful for, how can I not defend him? People marginalize him and others, so people miss out on real spiritual rocks. We aren't talking .05 carat diamonds I mean like 3 and 4 carat diamonds that are flawless. Yes there is other stuff that like I mentioned we have greater light now, but people marginalizing these apostles is a dangerous game.

Do you take everything that is in our manuals with a grain of salt(judicious thought)? None of what is in the manuals are official declarations. They are just useful study material. I am sincerely curious about it. I am not sure my tone sounds the best at the moment. I guess I had a hard day at work, and this is something that has bothered me for years.

When I used to share some gospel principles to other members, just simple ones about faith or the Plan of Salvation(i know quite broad), I would reference Elder McConkie and I would be ridiculed and people would put him down like it wasnt of worth. And I saw the comment earlier today but I declined to say anything because I don't like bringing stuff up like that. But since it was brought up and I felt a love for the man, I asked myself how can I turn away when I have a testimony of his apostleship, and I know that he taught true doctrine? It saddens me that more people do not appreciate him. It helped me so much to learn from what he said. Not everything is 100% doctrine, but so much of it is, and he teaches only what he was sure of. My wife has asked me questions where I don't believe I can tell her the answer but they are questions answered in process of searching. The source I know she can get the answer from is from certain talks by Elder McConkie. Why? Because that is where I got the answer. The talk is just appropriately conducive to the Spirit.

I feel there is something else I should say though I am not sure. I just want to ask do you take the words of Elder Oaks or Elder Bednar with an ounce of judicious thought?

[skalenfehl]

“But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and an almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:342–43.)

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

To get back to the OP, it is not contradictory at all, if one understands the doctrine of Christ correctly as taught and exemplified by prophets and apostles in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The Apostle Peter exhorts us to seek our calling and election. (2 Peter 1:10,11,19)

The flaw in your paradigm is that one can sin without thought of consequence as long as the Lord has given you the more sure word of promise. Without understanding the process of sanctification and justification, it is rather difficult to expound in just a few words. It is important to understand what it means to be reborn. In other words, once you have been baptized by water, you must then be baptized of the Spirit. Nephi discusses this as does Alma at the waters of Mormon.

King Benjamin goes on to teach what it means to become a "saint" through Christ's atonement:

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

But this only happens AFTER we have entered in at the way, which is what Nephi teaches over and over again:

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

This is not figuratively speaking. Nephi walked a path of obedience. From the very beginning, when he declared his intention to be obedient (1 Ne 3:7), he obeyed the voice of the Spirit. When we are reborn and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, It administers direction; it whispers to us when we commit to hearken and to obey. It is this voice that guides us back to the presence of deity.

Alma asked this:

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?

In other words, are you seeking to receive your calling and election? These men keep telling us over and over again that when we are baptized, after having truly repented of our sins, with NO MORE DESIRE to be worldly, so that with our baptism of fire we can be sanctified by the Holy Ghost. And once we have been sanctified, we are clean. This makes us just. And it is this justification that puts us on the path to receiving those loving words from the Lord.

But it only happens according to our obedience and our desires. If we don't desire it, we'll never obey all our covenants. And if we are not obedient, we have no promise. It's like learning to walk. If you don't put one foot in front of the other, you never move forward. There are actions and reactions in the laws of physics. Likewise, obedience brings blessings. The Lord has declared it to all of us:

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am

One step in front of the other:

1. Forsaketh his sins

2. cometh unto me (ask and ye shall receive; seek and ye shall find; knock, it shall be opened unto you)

3. Calleth on my name (are we truly and continually drawn out in prayer? What is our greatest desire? Is it to come unto Christ? Why or why not?)

4. Obeyeth my voice (obedience is always the right answer. Nephi always obeyed His voice)

5. Keepeth my commandments

When we are walking the strait and narrow path and our minds are firm and steadfast, we are simply NOT in the mind set of sinning. This doesn't mean that we aren't tempted any more, but we abhor sinning. It repulses us.

Alma 13:12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

There is NO DOUBT in my mind that Bruce R. McConkie understood this. He gave an excellent devotional at BYU in 1969 on this. Here it is and more:

Making Our Calling & Election Sure, Bruce R. McConkie

Edited January 31, 2013 by skalenfehl

[bytor2112]

The thing that disturbs me is when people don't consider what was said to be of any worth. They don't even look or evaluate it beyond the 10 seconds after reading it or they realize after they are done reading, oh that was by Elder McConkie, I need to pass over this one. I mean seriously. There are certain names that people hear and then they toss away so many spiritual gems because of bigotry, ignorance, petty dislike, and other silly meaningless things. Brigham Young is one person, Elder McConkie another, and there are others.

It is because of comments like Ram's or second hand information regarding the First Presidency being critical of Mormon Doctrine which was later edited at the request of the First Presidency and the tone softened.....not the doctrine changed. President Kimball is marginalized as is President Benson as well.....I have seen it occur more recently toward Elder Packer.

In matters of difficult doctrine or errant doctrine creeping into the fold the First Presidency often conferred with and dispatched Elder McConkie to deal with it. I guess they were pretty confident in his understanding of doctrine and that he was led by the Holy Spirit. and much of his writings from Mormon Doctrine and Doctrinal New Testament commentary are found in the Standard works. He was trusted by Apostles and Prophets....that is good enough for me.

Caution: Heretical Statement from Bytor: I am certain that Elder McConkie understood doctrine as well as and perhaps better than many of the men called to the Holy Apostleship in this Last Dispensation including our current Brethren.

Edited January 31, 2013 by bytor2112

[Guest]

THIRDpersonviewer, I just typed out a long response, got an error message when I tried to submit, and can't get it back.

The jist is that I ardently support and sustain our leaders. I also recognize them to be men with a right to their opinions, and as such I don't take everything they ever said or wrote as word directly from God. I think early leaders were eagerly waiting for further knowledge and doing the best they could do understand all that they could with what they had. I am thankful for continuing revelation that continues to make the Gospel clearer and simpler to us. I know that the Church leadership prepares conference addresses and Church manuals with a great deal of soberness and prayer. I know that when they update them, it's because they see a need and have weighed that need carefully. I'm thankful for that, and for personal revelation so that I can sort out the things that don't make sense to me with Heavenly Father.

[Matthew0059]

I'd like to piggyback on Skalenfehl's most recent remarks about getting one's calling and election made sure, and keep in mind the long and difficult road to having one's calling and election made sure. With all that in mind, I'd like to comment on the OP's last paragraph:

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

There is more to the doctrine than what you've paraphrased here, antispatula. D&C 132:26 comes to mind.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

That "Holy Spirit of promise" is the same spirit that binds someone's calling and election and makes it sure (see these scriptures). Here we see the carrot and the stick employed to encourage those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to endure to the end: the carrot of reward is exaltation, rest in Spirit Paradise until the First Resurrection, and partaking of the joy of the Millennium. The stick of punishment is being destroyed in the flesh and being delivered to the buffetings of Satan.

Therefore, according to the pattern laid out in D&C 132:26, after a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise they are guaranteed exaltation so long as they don't commit murder or the unpardonable sin, but there are even stricter penalties imposed for serious sins.

If they do commit murder, as did David, they will not receive their exaltation:

David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

David's penalty also had to do with coming forth in the second Resurrection (at the end of the millennium) as opposed to the "Resurrection of the just"- see Acts 2:29-34.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Matthew0059