Tithing-Itemize Daycare?

[Backroads]

After reading this thread I've come to the conclusion I am the laziest tithing payer ever and so is my husband. I see some sort of desposit into my bank account, I round said amount up to the nearest five, and pay tithing on that. All this talk of gross amounts, net amounts, 401ks, itemized deductions are making my head spin.

That being said, I really do think a lot of tithing is the heart of the matter. If you feel good about however you are figuring out tithing, hey, that's probably all that matters. But if you're overthinking it, worrying about how much ought to be put in the tithing envolope and how much should stick with you, what counts as an increase and what doesn't and treating the whole matter like it's a financial business deal instead of a simple put important commandment, you're probably doing more justification than is wise.

I agree with your wife.

[missionary0204]

Thanks Backroads!

I too feel that tithing is personal between families and the Lord. This thread was started because of a conflict that was created between my wife and I due to our different opinions on the matter. There have been many opinions expressed and I am grateful for them. I am confident that many people reading this thread will gain insight and grow even closer to the Lord. I know I have :)

[skippy740]

I wanted to post because I don't agree with the idea presented by many that we ought to be afraid of underpaying tithing. I cringe when I read this sort of mentality because it shows a complete lack of understanding of our Lord. Try to see it from His perspective.

You who are parents can understand this better, but even those without children can understand somewhat as well. Imagine you ask your child to do something, whether it is to pay 10% or clean their room, or whatever. Are you waiting to jump on your child if they slack off in the slightest? No. Most parents aren't. Usually, your child does their best and you help them do it over if necessary (which it usually is) and in the end, you accept whatever they have accomplished, even if it isn't quite up to par.

Why would a Father in Heaven who loves more perfectly than us imperfect mortals jump all over us because we unwittingly underpaid a little tithing? Or even if we paid less thinking that it was okay. He's going to accept our best, correct us lovingly if we are wrong, and in the end just be glad that we are trying to serve Him.

Do your best and expect the Lord to help you, not punish you. If you are afraid of being punished, you are seeing God as an IRS agent, not a Father. Let Him be your Father.

You are forgetting two important parts of the law of tithing:

1) Tithing is the ONLY commandment that it is POSSIBLE for us to be PERFECT in following.

2) Being a full tithe payer - while subject to our own interpretation of 10% of our increase - is a requirement for entering the temple.

[CalledToServe]

Good evening CalledToServe. I hope you are doing well. :)

Just to point out the word "obey" or "obedience" does not appear in the sacrament. However, it does say "keep his commandments". This seems to support Vort's point more than it supports yours.

Here is what the words actually say we are to covenant:

We covenant to...

1. Take upon us the name of Jesus

2. To always remember Him

3. And keep his commandments

I'm afraid you've missed a very important word in the prayer. It's the word "willing." Take a look at it. We don't actually covenant to do those three things, we covenant to show the Lord we are willing to do them.

This is certainly merciful and kind of our Father in Heaven. Do you know anyone who is doing all they are supposed to do? I would doubt it. But that's okay, because right now Heavenly Father just wants us to show that we are trying our best.

The prayer over the water (or originally the wine) is different. In that case, we are actually promising to have done something, not just show we are willing:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

So now we are covenanting to always remember Him, not just be "willing" to. Why the difference? Why not include the other two things? That's because if we are always remembering him, then we have already taken upon us His name and are keeping His commandments.

All this is part of a three step plan of progression. First we show Him we have repented of our sins by being baptized, then we show Him we are willing to be 100% obedient to His commandments, and THEN after we've done those two things, then we actually accomplish it and remember Him always.

So if you have been baptized, but haven't had the Spirit confirm to you that you have witnessed to the Father that you are willing to do those three things, that is the next step you should be working on. And if you have had that witness, then you should be working on always remembering Him. Each step is a little higher than the other and each is attainable only after we have accomplished the previous steps.

Now if tithing is cut and dried to you, then go ahead and pay it the way you believe you should. That is one way of showing the Lord you are willing to keep His commandments. But we ought not to think our way is the only way or that it is so obvious to other people. Everyone comes from different perspectives. The benefit of asking questions is, if we take them to the Lord, we get to converse with Him. And He loves that.

How often have we heard that it isn't really about the money? It really isn't. It's about showing Heavenly Father, not even that we want to be obedient to Him, but that we love Him (which is what we are doing when we try our best to be obedient to Him). So let's make the process more loving and less analytical. In the end, He doesn't need the money at all. The Being who can calm wind and waves just by talking to them and move mountains could build us all the temples and church buildings we need just by saying the word. So if we stop stressing so much about the amount we are paying and start using it as an opportunity to come to know our God, then, well, we've really truly paid our tithing, no matter what we do.

[Vort]

I'm afraid you've missed a very important word in the prayer. It's the word "willing." Take a look at it. We don't actually covenant to do those three things, we covenant to show the Lord we are willing to do them.

Not so. We covenant to be willing to take upon ourselves Christ's name, and we also covenant always to remember him and to keep his commandments. As you point out, the sacramental prayer over the wine (water) makes this distinction explicit.

[Sharky]

You are forgetting two important parts of the law of tithing:

1) Tithing is the ONLY commandment that it is POSSIBLE for us to be PERFECT in following.

2) Being a full tithe payer - while subject to our own interpretation of 10% of our increase - is a requirement for entering the temple.

And Heavenly Father, like any parent, is very forgiving, as well as understanding. A missed tithing payment I do not believe will be held against us, as long as we are in fact doing our best.

& only Heavenly Father & ourselves know if we are doing our best.

A Bishop might say you should be a full-tithe payer for 3-months to get a TR; however, the Bishop can only go based on what you tell him. So if with a clear conscience one is able to say "Yes"..... well then, that missed week might well be forgiven.

My only problem with the comparison to the parent child relationship & the parent always being willing to love & help the child improve:

Anyone who has raised a child knows that at some point in time that child looks at the parents help as "a way out". In the child's mind it might be, "If I don't do it mom/dad will come help me with it" or "They'll do it if I don't".

Basically, knowing that the parents help will always be there becomes the excuse to not try one's best.

It would be no different if you take that approach concerning tithing. Oh, the Lord will forgive me just this once & will help me improve ..... & a few months later you say that again & then again & again &, well, the excuse has taken root & growing.

As parents, sometimes we have to step back & let our children face things on their own. Sometimes we have to take the approach of not "bailing out" our children when they repeatedly create bad situations. Of letting them suffer the consequences when they make a poor decision & learn from it.

Even a loving forgiving Father-in-Heaven sometimes steps back and lets us blunder around in the world of our own making, helping us to learn & grow through our choices.

[missionary0204]

A missed tithing payment I do not believe will be held against us, as long as we are in fact doing our best.

Be careful with this type of a comment. If we repent, I will agree with you. Statements like this create avenues for justification regarding God's law.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[Backroads]

What does it mean to "miss a tithing payment"? I've heard all sorts of different tithing-payment schedules. If one goes, say, a week past payday without paying tithing, is that "missing a payment"? What about those who pay it once a year?

[skippy740]

Year-to-Date Tithing is due by "Tithing Settlement".

There is no other "due date".

It is (highly) recommended to "pay as you go", but not a requirement.

[pam]

What does it mean to "miss a tithing payment"? I've heard all sorts of different tithing-payment schedules. If one goes, say, a week past payday without paying tithing, is that "missing a payment"? What about those who pay it once a year?

For those that pay their tithing each payday and perhaps missed paying one payday could be considered missing a tithing payment. But what matters is what happens during tithing settlement and if you can claim that you are a full tithe payer.

[Sharky]

Year-to-Date Tithing is due by "Tithing Settlement".

There is no other "due date".

It is (highly) recommended to "pay as you go", but not a requirement.

Guess I'm on my way to purgatory then.

I don't have my bottom line at tithing settlement, in fact I don't even have a clue of the year-to-date "increase" or "income" or "profit/loss" until the following February or March.

Even then, since all our farm accounting is done on a "Cash Basis" rather then an "Accrual Basis", that bottom line is frequently decieving (any financial loan officer can understand & explain this), but over the course of a few years it all averages out.

Anyhow, I clearly never make the "due date" of tithing settlement because quite clearly there is no way or form I can know what is owed by that date.

Am I going to face rath of judgement day for this "failure"?

Only the Lord fully understands & knows our individual circumstances and what is in our hearts, so only He can say if the "due date" of tithing settlement is binding.

For a farmer, or any busniessman for that matter, selling 10-dozen eggs at $3/dzn does not equate to a $30 increase or $30 in income or $30 of profit .... that information comes after you determine the dollars you paid them chickens in the form of room & board (housing/feed/labor) so that they would lay those eggs.

Does a book store owner pay tithing on gross sales before he pays his suppliers or pays his hired help? Same concept.

A "missed tithing payment"?

Now if my chickens lay 12-dozen eggs & I sell 10-dozen while my family eats 2-dozen, clearly I had an increase of 2-dozen eggs.

Is it held against me or my family if when all is said & done I unintentionally (without intent or fore-thought or malice) forget that we ate 2-dozen?

IMHO, I don't think so, not in the circumstances just described ... I believe the Lord understands & knows what is in our hearts & our true intentions.

If our intentions are to forget the 2-dzn we ate so as to "skip out" on being tithed for the 2-dzn eggs, then yes, there should be & will be judgement.

If "forgetting" or "missing" becomes the excuse, with no action to right that wrong, then most certainly!

05:30, late for them chores!

Since I don't sell eggs (rather beef & lamb & "excess" hay when we can grow it rather then buying it ourselves) eggs & chickens are kind of nuetral subject matter & I appologize to any of you who might be egg producers for my using ya'll as "the simple example" .....

Edited February 9, 2013 by Sharky

[MrNirom]

Put your treasures in Heaven.. for where you heart is.. so is your money. :-) I have always done what your wife suggests. I would much rather overpay than rob God in the least. If I didn't have a job, I would have nothing to tithe. And because I am in that situation right now.. I know what I am talking about.

[pam]

I have always done what your wife suggests.

But do you do what YOUR wife suggests?

[MrNirom]

Not always.. no. I guess it depends on what she suggests.

[pam]

Okay I was just checking. Since you said you always did what missionary0204's wife said, I was just wondering about your own. hahaha

[Guest gopecon]

Guess I'm on my way to purgatory then.

I don't have my bottom line at tithing settlement, in fact I don't even have a clue of the year-to-date "increase" or "income" or "profit/loss" until the following February or March.

Even then, since all our farm accounting is done on a "Cash Basis" rather then an "Accrual Basis", that bottom line is frequently decieving (any financial loan officer can understand & explain this), but over the course of a few years it all averages out.

Anyhow, I clearly never make the "due date" of tithing settlement because quite clearly there is no way or form I can know what is owed by that date.

Am I going to face rath of judgement day for this "failure"?

Only the Lord fully understands & knows our individual circumstances and what is in our hearts, so only He can say if the "due date" of tithing settlement is binding.

For a farmer, or any busniessman for that matter, selling 10-dozen eggs at $3/dzn does not equate to a $30 increase or $30 in income or $30 of profit .... that information comes after you determine the dollars you paid them chickens in the form of room & board (housing/feed/labor) so that they would lay those eggs.

Does a book store owner pay tithing on gross sales before he pays his suppliers or pays his hired help? Same concept.

A "missed tithing payment"?

Now if my chickens lay 12-dozen eggs & I sell 10-dozen while my family eats 2-dozen, clearly I had an increase of 2-dozen eggs.

Is it held against me or my family if when all is said & done I unintentionally (without intent or fore-thought or malice) forget that we ate 2-dozen?

IMHO, I don't think so, not in the circumstances just described ... I believe the Lord understands & knows what is in our hearts & our true intentions.

If our intentions are to forget the 2-dzn we ate so as to "skip out" on being tithed for the 2-dzn eggs, then yes, there should be & will be judgement.

If "forgetting" or "missing" becomes the excuse, with no action to right that wrong, then most certainly!

05:30, late for them chores!

Since I don't sell eggs (rather beef & lamb & "excess" hay when we can grow it rather then buying it ourselves) eggs & chickens are kind of nuetral subject matter & I appologize to any of you who might be egg producers for my using ya'll as "the simple example" .....

Tithing settlement is not the drop dead date that April 15th is. If you have a complicated situation (farmers, business owners, etc.) and don't know your "increase" until February, or some other fiscal year end, there is nothing wrong with evaluating your tithe for the year at that time and making sure that what you have paid through the year is enough (or in paying it all at that time). I think that the point that many of us have made on this thread is that business owners should not try to nickel and dime the Lord by deducting regular living expenses from their income for tithing purposes (child care, rent for those who work from home, TV/internet connections, etc.).