Good Article - written by a non-Mormon


EarlJibbs
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Vort, I am usually with you on your opinions. But it appears to me that your "calling out" that the idea that there were two plans presented is false...is itself... false.

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Agency—Our Alternative

Our agency, given us through the plan of our Father, is the great alternative to Satan’s plan of force. With this sublime gift, we can grow, improve, progress, and seek perfection. Without agency, none of us could grow and develop by learning from our mistakes and errors and those of others.

There was most definitely two plans to chose from. Now was there a vote? Well, not a vote that would overthrow one plan or another. But did we make it known which plan we were choosing? Like placing a ballot? I think so, enough for it to be recorded In the end and get you thrown out with the rest of Satans followers. This is an argument that unless you think that the tide could have been turned in Lucifers favor by your decision, is really not that important. But I do see what you are saying.

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Vort, I am usually with you on your opinions. But it appears to me that your "calling out" that the idea that there were two plans presented is false...is itself... false.

I admit that even our leaders have casually referred to "Satan's plan", and this is so well-entrenched in LDS culture and scriptural gloss that going against it is fighting a quixotic battle. But let me note that no scripture substantiates the "two-plan theory". It is, at best, a casual and not-very-accurate way of describing the scriptural teaching.

Now, it's not really my job to correct every misapprehension in the Church. But when I see people messing up on basic principles because of a misunderstanding of scripture, I feel compelled to respond.

For example, a popular LDS teaching (but faulty, in my opinion, and certainly with only sketchy scriptural support and plenty of scriptures going the other way) is that Adam and Eve committed no sin in partaking of the "forbidden fruit". Regardless of the fact that their action brought about the exact consequences of sin -- death, both physical and spiritual -- and God himself said he had FORGIVEN them their transgression, many Latter-day Saints still insist that, somehow, Adam's and Eve's direct violation of God's clear commandment just didn't count as a sin. Even apostles have taught what amounts to this. Who am I to go against an apostle? No one, that's who.

But...what happens when a Latter-day Saint claims that sometimes we must hearken to Satan's voice and go against what God says, because that's the only way we can grow? I have heard this very thing many times, once (as a question) from the mouth of my innocent seven-year-old. This is a false, apostate, poisonous, dangerous, and frankly Satanic doctrine, and it derives directly from the shaky premise that Adam and Eve somehow didn't "really" sin.

Now, I'm the very first to say that we simply do not know what happened in the garden of Eden. What does the "forbidden fruit" represent? I don't believe it was an actual piece of fruit that they bit into. So what was it? Not sex; that has been explicitly (no pun intended) denied by prophets, and would more appropriately apply to the "tree of life" than to the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". What was the exact nature of their "transgression"? What was involved? We have exactly none of the specifics. We are left with a highly figurative story about naked people eating fruit from off a tree.

But whatever happened, SOMETHING happened. When people take the logical step from Adam and Eve disobeying God, hearkening to Satan, and being justified and honored for the act to THEMSELVES doing the same -- and it is perfectly logical -- how are we to respond? My response is to say (1) we don't know what happened and (2) if Adam and Eve disobeyed God and hearkened to Satan, they sinned, no two ways about it.

If we say that we "voted" on "Satan's plan", that turns God's kingdom and the plan of salvation itself into a democratic referendum. It strongly suggests, if not outright implies, that truth is determined by majority vote, and the person with the most persuasive argument is the one to be followed. This is anti-Christian, anti-truth, and surely offends the sensibilities of anyone who believes the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I maintain that using terminology such as "voting" and calling Satan's blatant rebellion against God a "plan" is a poor model, bad terminology that obscures more than it clarifies in understanding what happened.

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A company decides to hire a new manager. They call in two candidates and discuss with both of them the qualifications and expectations of the job. "You will be expected to perform A, B, and C" they plainly state. The first candidate says "I will do A, B, and C and the company's name will shine." The second candidate says "I will do X, Y, Z, and the company should be named after me." They hire the first guy.

Now, what is the most accurate way to describe this meeting? Was this a meeting to discuss the company's management style? or name? Or was this a meeting to select a manager?

The question in the Heavenly Council was not about plans or glory. The question was a simple one, "whom shall I send". A choice was made, "I will send the first." Talk of "plans", while it was a part of the Council, can best be compared to a threadjack. It wasn't the purpose of that meeting.

The scriptures only record one single vote in that meeting. "I will send the first." What ensues is a Book of Mormon style war of rebellion and sour grapes. It's possible that there may have been a more democratic process involved, or that we were at least called on to give a sustaining vote (to winnow out the chaff), but such is not recorded or publicly revealed. Only the King gets a vote in this Council.

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A company decides to hire a new manager. They call in two candidates and discuss with both of them the qualifications and expectations of the job. "You will be expected to perform A, B, and C" they plainly state. The first candidate says "I will do A, B, and C and the company's name will shine." The second candidate says "I will do X, Y, Z, and the company should be named after me." They hire the first guy.

Now, what is the most accurate way to describe this meeting? Was this a meeting to discuss the company's management style? or name? Or was this a meeting to select a manager?

The question in the Heavenly Council was not about plans or glory. The question was a simple one, "whom shall I send". A choice was made, "I will send the first." Talk of "plans", while it was a part of the Council, can best be compared to a threadjack. It wasn't the purpose of that meeting.

The scriptures only record one single vote in that meeting. "I will send the first." What ensues is a Book of Mormon style war of rebellion and sour grapes. It's possible that there may have been a more democratic process involved, or that we were at least called on to give a sustaining vote (to winnow out the chaff), but such is not recorded or publicly revealed. Only the King gets a vote in this Council.

I believe the problem is in understanding the part we as individuals played in that council. I believe that there may be some (posting on this forum) that are implying that we had no part in any decision and that our individual input did not count.

It is my understanding that G-d fully intended that we participate in the process of the decisions and choices made. It is also my understanding that Satan intended to change this "Plan" of G-d to include our participation and instead dictate what would take place without any individual participation or input at all from anyone.

Contrary to what some have posted - I do not believe that G-d the Father is a dictator - it is Satan - Not G-d that intends - by plan - to deprive the spirits of man of liberty by taking away the agency and free will of mankind in determining our eternal destiny.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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I believe the problem is in understanding the part we as individuals played in that council. I believe that there may be some (posting on this forum) that are implying that we had no part in any decision and that our individual input did not count.

I believe you are mistaken. I would be interested to see exactly what anyone has written that you think implies what you suggest.

It is my understanding that G-d fully intended that we participate in the process of the decisions and choices made. It is also my understanding that Satan intended to change this "Plan" of G-d to include our participation and instead dictate what would take place without any individual participation or input at all from anyone.

I know of no scriptural support for this hypothesis that Satan proposed to change the plan of salvation into a dictatorship with himself at the helm.

Contrary to what some have posted - I do not believe that G-d the Father is a dictator

You apparently mean one of two things:

1. Some have posted that you believe God the Father is a dictator, which you deny believing.

2. Some have posted that God the Father is a dictator, an idea with which you disagree.

If you mean #1, then I am quite sure you are wrong. I am confident that no one has suggested that you believe God is a dictator.

If you mean #2, then I am still quite sure you are wrong. I am confident that no one has suggested that God is a dictator. That idea springs 100% from your own imagination and misinterpretation of what others have written.

it is Satan - Not G-d that intends - by plan - to deprive the spirits of man of liberty by taking away the agency and free will of mankind in determining our eternal destiny.

Agreed. No one has suggested otherwise.

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I believe you are mistaken. I would be interested to see exactly what anyone has written that you think implies what you suggest.

I know of no scriptural support for this hypothesis that Satan proposed to change the plan of salvation into a dictatorship with himself at the helm.

You apparently mean one of two things:

1. Some have posted that you believe God the Father is a dictator, which you deny believing.

2. Some have posted that God the Father is a dictator, an idea with which you disagree.

If you mean #1, then I am quite sure you are wrong. I am confident that no one has suggested that you believe God is a dictator.

If you mean #2, then I am still quite sure you are wrong. I am confident that no one has suggested that God is a dictator. That idea springs 100% from your own imagination and misinterpretation of what others have written.

Agreed. No one has suggested otherwise.

One question - Do you believe that G-d the Father dictated his plan and only his plan with an attitude of - "It's my way or the highway". In other words - accept it on my terms or get out!

The Traveler

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One question - Do you believe that G-d the Father dictated his plan and only his plan with an attitude of - "It's my way or the highway". In other words - accept it on my terms or get out!

I think God proposed a plan for our salvation and gave us the option to participate. I do not believe he put up a hazy idea and asked for input into how it was to be brought about.

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One question - Do you believe that G-d the Father dictated his plan and only his plan with an attitude of - "It's my way or the highway". In other words - accept it on my terms or get out!

I think God proposed a plan for our salvation and gave us the option to participate. I do not believe he put up a hazy idea and asked for input into how it was to be brought about.

Now let me put a question to you:

Suppose I tell my family that we're going to Europe!!! Yes, we're all getting on an airplane next month, flying to Paris, and spending a month touring Europe! My kids respond as follows:

Kid 1: Great! Awesome! Thanks, Dad!

Kid 2: Uh. Sounds okay, I guess, but I don't want to go to Europe. I vote we go visit Chile instead.

Kid 3: By plane? I don't think so. I vote we go by boat instead.

Kid 4: I'll take us all to Europe, but for TWO months! And we won't have to endure a long airplane ride! And we'll have unlimited funds! So come with me instead!

My response: We're flying to Europe next month. Period. Those of you who want to come are welcome to come.

Am I saying "My way or the highway, kids?" If so, then yes, God did in fact say "It's my way or the highway -- accept it on my terms or get out!"

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I think God proposed a plan for our salvation and gave us the option to participate. I do not believe he put up a hazy idea and asked for input into how it was to be brought about.

Now let me put a question to you:

Suppose I tell my family that we're going to Europe!!! Yes, we're all getting on an airplane next month, flying to Paris, and spending a month touring Europe! My kids respond as follows:

Kid 1: Great! Awesome! Thanks, Dad!

Kid 2: Uh. Sounds okay, I guess, but I don't want to go to Europe. I vote we go visit Chile instead.

Kid 3: By plane? I don't think so. I vote we go by boat instead.

Kid 4: I'll take us all to Europe, but for TWO months! And we won't have to endure a long airplane ride! And we'll have unlimited funds! So come with me instead!

My response: We're flying to Europe next month. Period. Those of you who want to come are welcome to come.

Am I saying "My way or the highway, kids?" If so, then yes, God did in fact say "It's my way or the highway -- accept it on my terms or get out!"

What was the Grand Council in heaven for then? Simply to receive instructions from God? I beleive that there was some "have to happen" items that God let everyone know about. And the rest like "...Hey, let's talk about that". We were invited to come along or not, but I think that there was more of our (those in the council) input or decisions that you think. Again. Just my opinion.

Was it a take it or leave it? Well, it was in the sense of progression. You either do these things to progress, or you will not progress. Something like "Look, you want to have what I have? There are a few things that need to happen, receive a body...Need a Savior..." But the rest? I think there was some talk about it. As it is here on Earth. We have principles that are unmoving, but there is a lot of area where there is debate or personal decisions involved that could all be correct.

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I think God proposed a plan for our salvation and gave us the option to participate. I do not believe he put up a hazy idea and asked for input into how it was to be brought about.

Now let me put a question to you:

Suppose I tell my family that we're going to Europe!!! Yes, we're all getting on an airplane next month, flying to Paris, and spending a month touring Europe! My kids respond as follows:

Kid 1: Great! Awesome! Thanks, Dad!

Kid 2: Uh. Sounds okay, I guess, but I don't want to go to Europe. I vote we go visit Chile instead.

Kid 3: By plane? I don't think so. I vote we go by boat instead.

Kid 4: I'll take us all to Europe, but for TWO months! And we won't have to endure a long airplane ride! And we'll have unlimited funds! So come with me instead!

My response: We're flying to Europe next month. Period. Those of you who want to come are welcome to come.

Am I saying "My way or the highway, kids?" If so, then yes, God did in fact say "It's my way or the highway -- accept it on my terms or get out!"

I see the problem - You do not know the difference between a dictator that takes away liberty and someone upholds the ideals of freewill and agency.

A person that values liberty would say - we have many options for our vacation. If we work together there are benefits - lets review the possibilities desired and what each such possibility will cost. Just keep in mind that the determining factors are what it is you want and what you are willing to sacrifice to obtain it. I have a plan but you have the liberty to consider my suggestions and we will discuss any additional ideas and inputs you have and are willing to contribute in paying for. But for sure because I am not a dictator - I will not dictate where we will go and force everyone to comply to my plan - that is what dictators do.

Do you understand the difference? When you tell someone what they are going to do - you are a dictator

The Traveler

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Good afternoon Traveler. I hope you have had a good day! :)

One question - Do you believe that G-d the Father dictated his plan and only his plan with an attitude of - "It's my way or the highway". In other words - accept it on my terms or get out!

The Traveler

Traveller, if I tell my boss that I have a plan that will allow us to support 10000 users with just one System Administrator, but the actual reality is that it is impossible for such a thing to occur, can I really say that I have a plan?

It doesn't matter how much detail I put in to my plan, if it is impossible to accomplish, then there is no plan.

It is even worse when I claim to have a plan but I know that I'm full of crap.

Satan claimed he had a plan to save everyone, but he knew he was lying. He knew that his supposed "plan" didn't really exist and it never could exist. He was pulling our leg. We shouldn't believe him!

I reject that Satan had a plan for our salvation because I know Satan was a liar from the beginning. I know that he was lying when he said that he had a plan so that we could all be saved.

God has a plan. His plan is for real. It isn't fake. It will actually accomplish what it is designed to accomplish. His plan is the only plan of happiness. It is the only plan that will actually allow me to enjoy eternal life. If I don't choose God's way, then I can't hope to enjoy eternal life. It is God's way or some false way.

Regards,

Finrock

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When you tell someone what they are going to do - you are a dictator

So is telling my son what he needs to do to earn the privilege of driving and getting his drivers licence being a dictator?

I'm pretty sure we All wanted to become like him, even those who rebelled. It was our choice from the start.

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I see the problem - You do not know the difference between a dictator that takes away liberty and someone upholds the ideals of freewill and agency.

Yes, well, that's one theory. Can you see any others? (Hint: Focus on yourself rather than me.)

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I see the problem - You do not know the difference between a dictator that takes away liberty and someone upholds the ideals of freewill and agency.

A person that values liberty would say - we have many options for our vacation. If we work together there are benefits - lets review the possibilities desired and what each such possibility will cost. Just keep in mind that the determining factors are what it is you want and what you are willing to sacrifice to obtain it. I have a plan but you have the liberty to consider my suggestions and we will discuss any additional ideas and inputs you have and are willing to contribute in paying for. But for sure because I am not a dictator - I will not dictate where we will go and force everyone to comply to my plan - that is what dictators do.

Do you understand the difference? When you tell someone what they are going to do - you are a dictator

The Traveler

I wonder if you missed this aspect of Vort's response?

My response: We're flying to Europe next month. Period. Those of you who want to come are welcome to come.

A dictator I don't believe would have responded in terms of the bolded sentence. A person that honors the moral agency of another would though.

I am in understanding that our choice in coming to earth is similar to the covenants we make. We as God's children do not decide on any aspect of the covenant. The Lord's decides. Period. It is up to us to accept the covenant or walk away.

As in our bible dictionary, "God in his good pleasure fixes the terms, which man accepts. The same word is sometimes rendered “testament.”

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A person that values liberty would say - we have many options for our vacation. If we work together there are benefits - lets review the possibilities desired and what each such possibility will cost. Just keep in mind that the determining factors are what it is you want and what you are willing to sacrifice to obtain it. I have a plan but you have the liberty to consider my suggestions and we will discuss any additional ideas and inputs you have and are willing to contribute in paying for. But for sure because I am not a dictator - I will not dictate where we will go and force everyone to comply to my plan - that is what dictators do.

Do you understand the difference? When you tell someone what they are going to do - you are a dictator

The Traveler

So, one of the kids say, "Let's go to Syria for vacation!" As a parent, who knows the world and the dangers of such, would entertain such a thought?

God is Perfect. We are not and were not in the premortal existence. He knew that His plan is the one that would allow us to become like Him. We didn't know what it would be like to have a body, but He knew. How can we have any input into a plan if we don't have the knowledge?

And can you point out scriptures or talks by prophets who say we had input into this plan?

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So, one of the kids say, "Let's go to Syria for vacation!" As a parent, who knows the world and the dangers of such, would entertain such a thought?

God is Perfect. We are not and were not in the premortal existence. He knew that His plan is the one that would allow us to become like Him. We didn't know what it would be like to have a body, but He knew. How can we have any input into a plan if we don't have the knowledge?

And can you point out scriptures or talks by prophets who say we had input into this plan?

In reality parents with small children often take upon the role of dictators. A benevolent dictator is somewhat required for ignorant children incapable of understanding danger sometimes present. Therefore sometimes it is necessary as a parent to dictate. But it is also the responsibility of a parent to teach and prepare children for issues that they must face in everyday life.

But in the case of the pre-existence - I do not believe that G-d was a dictator to any degree. I believe this because he is not a dictator in this life as well and guards individual liberty and free agency as a sacred right. I believe the only punishments that resulted from the pre-existence were the consequences of his children acting out there liberty and free agency in full light and knowledge of what the consequences were.

I believe G-d prepared his children in every way to understand every aspect of our free agency and liberty and knew we were ready and capable of making decisions - I do not believe he did not prepare us nor do I believe he forced his plan on us. Rather I believe we explored every consideration and pursued every angle - voiced any concerns and listened to any council we desired - then we decided and voted by our actions - according to scripture - there were basically 3 groups. I find it interesting that mankind seem to always be divided into 3 groups - even in the resurrection.

The Traveler

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Who has suggested he did?

Why are you avoiding many of the questions asked of you, Traveler?

Same reason I didn't get a response on another thread that he called me out on? And where I disagreed with him?

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I believe the problem is in understanding the part we as individuals played in that council.

That's certainly one problem. As it is now, such hasn't been revealed (if it has, please share the scripture so we can put this to rest). Until such a time that it is publicly reveled, I am left to either rely on my own personal revelations or lean on the arm of flesh.

I believe that there may be some (posting on this forum) that are implying that we had no part in any decision and that our individual input did not count.

I won't speak for others. For myself, I don't recall that I've actually stated my opinion one way or the other, simply that it isn't within the scriptures. That is to say, the gospel as revealed today is broad enough to allow for a Heavenly Council comprised of spirits that were eligible for the mortal experience. It's also broad enough to allow for a Council that was only comprised of the Godhead. It's also broad enough to allow for a Council that consisted of the regress of gods (for those that support such).

Additionally, this Council may have been free enough to hash out plans and procedures. The only input we have mentioned in the scriptures is "whom shall I send". It may be that this was the only input sought. It may be that no input was solicited. Compare this experience to Isaiah's theophany when he receives his prophetic call. "Whom shall I send" wasn't an invitation for input - it was the extension of a calling. Accept or reject. So little has been actually revealed that all of these fit within the scriptures.

It's fair to state these things as your opinions and understandings, but it is not in the standard works.

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Good afternoon Traveler. I hope you have had a good day! :)

Traveller, if I tell my boss that I have a plan that will allow us to support 10000 users with just one System Administrator, but the actual reality is that it is impossible for such a thing to occur, can I really say that I have a plan?

It doesn't matter how much detail I put in to my plan, if it is impossible to accomplish, then there is no plan.

It is even worse when I claim to have a plan but I know that I'm full of crap.

Satan claimed he had a plan to save everyone, but he knew he was lying. He knew that his supposed "plan" didn't really exist and it never could exist. He was pulling our leg. We shouldn't believe him!

I reject that Satan had a plan for our salvation because I know Satan was a liar from the beginning. I know that he was lying when he said that he had a plan so that we could all be saved.

God has a plan. His plan is for real. It isn't fake. It will actually accomplish what it is designed to accomplish. His plan is the only plan of happiness. It is the only plan that will actually allow me to enjoy eternal life. If I don't choose God's way, then I can't hope to enjoy eternal life. It is God's way or some false way.

Regards,

Finrock

I can see the reasoning that Lucifer lied when he said "I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost", but I think it falls in the camp of speculation. The Lord reveals that Satan was cast out because he rebelled and "sought to destroy the agency of man". In fact, it sounds like the two concerns the Lord had with this pretender was 1) he was out of line and in outright rebellion (apostasy!), and 2) whatever course he was pursuing would compromise principles in an intolerable way.

It may be that he had a "plan" that would only work if he destroyed our agency. It may also be that he sought the destruction by continuing his rebellion - that is, after being rejected as Savior, he attempted to fill the role regardless of what the Council decided. Compare Helaman 1 for an example of this on earth.

Edited by mordorbund
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