What is a Christian?

[Tough Grits]

Things that are relevant to understanding my question:

1. I was born and raised in Miami.

2. I was raised agnostic/atheist.

3. I became a member of the Church when I was 24.

4. I have lived in the deep South since my baptism in 1998.

So, growing up in Miami I did not know very many "go-to-church-every-Sunday" kind of people.

All I knew, was that I couldn't tell people that I didn't believe in God, because the kids who did believe in God would make fun of me and make my life miserable (ironic, huh?). However, it wasn't acceptable to talk too much about God either. So strange. So-called religious people who ridiculed non-believers and ridiculed those who were "too religious".

Fast-forward: now I live in the South where everybody is a borderline religious fanatic. I mean this is the best possible way.

We still pray in school, we still hang the Ten Commandments in our schools, and we still talk about God and the Gospel freely at the bank, the ballgame, and the courthouse.

Going to church is expected on Sundays, regardless of the denomination. Being "saved" is a high priority, along with getting married, having children, saying grace and showing respect for elders.

However...I have noticed that for all that the South has to offer for it's rich and protective acceptance of religion and religious expression, many of the "faithful" (regardless of denomination) place a higher priority on attending church and saying grace, than on actually being a Christian (living their religion every day of the week other than Sunday).

Let me clarify: I have noticed that the members of the Church in the area that I currently live, sincerely say that they love God and that they know this Church is true...but then they do not accept or magnify callings, they do not attend their classes, they do not attend their meetings, they come late--if they come at all, and they do not do their home teaching and visiting teaching.

Our most recent Stake Conference had an attendance of 30%.

Most of the members that I know speak of living in the Celestial Kingdom and being sealed to ALL their family members as a forgone conclusion, rather than something that they are still striving for.

On any given Fast and Testimony Sunday, the majority of testimonies are "shout-outs" to anybody and everybody that they love and anybody and anything that they are thankful for. Our testimony meetings are filled with heartfelt crying and emotion over their love and thankfulness for their families...but little, to nothing, about the actual gospel or any principles or doctrine.

So, I have been pondering...what does the populace at large think being a Christian is?

Is this just a Southern mentality that merely believing in God makes them a Christian and makes them religious?

What about other denominations, or other wards in other areas? Has anybody seen the same style of worship or Christian mentality in their area or region?

Or is this just in my area and stake?

What does being a Christian mean to you? Is just the belief in God enough to qualify any of us as a "Christian"? Or do you think it takes more, a whole lot more, to be a "Christian"?

Edited February 14, 2013 by Tough Grits
TYPO

[Traveler]

Things that are relevant to understanding my question:

1. I was born and raised in Miami.

2. I was raised agnostic/atheist.

3. I became a member of the Church when I was 24.

4. I have lived in the deep South since my baptism in 1998.

So, growing up in Miami I did not know very many "go-to-church-every-Sunday" kind of people.

All I knew, was that I couldn't tell people that I didn't believe in God, because the kids who did believe in God would make fun of me and make my life miserable (ironic, huh?). However, it wasn't acceptable to talk too much about God either. So strange. So-called religious people who ridiculed non-believers and ridiculed those who were "too religious".

Fast-forward: now I live in the South where everybody is a borderline religious fanatic. I mean this is the best possible way.

We still pray in school, we still hang the Ten Commandments in our schools, and we still talk about God and the Gospel freely at the bank, the ballgame, and the courthouse.

Going to church is expected on Sundays, regardless of the denomination. Being "saved" is a high priority, along with getting married, having children, saying grace and showing respect for elders.

However...I have noticed that for all that the South has to offer for it's rich and protective acceptance of religion and religious expression, many of the "faithful" (regardless of denomination) place a higher priority on attending church and saying grace, than on actually being a Christian (living their religion every day of the week other than Sunday).

Let me clarify: I have noticed that the members of the Church in the area that I currently live, sincerely say that they love God and that they know this Church is true...but then they do not accept or magnify callings, they do not attend their classes, they do not attend their meetings, they come late--if they come at all, and they do not do their home teaching and visiting teaching.

Our most recent Stake Conference had an attendance of 30%.

Most of the members that I know speak of living in the Celestial Kingdom and being sealed to ALL their family members as a forgone conclusion, rather than something that they are still striving for.

On any given Fast and Testimony Sunday, the majority of testimonies are "shout-outs" to anybody and everybody that they love and anybody and anything that they are thankful for. Our testimony meetings are filled with heartfelt crying and emotion over their love and thankfulness for their families...but little, to nothing, about the actual gospel or any principles or doctrine.

So, I have been pondering...what does the populace at large think being a Christian is?

Is this just a Southern mentality that merely believing in God makes them a Christian and makes them religious?

What about other denominations, or other wards in other areas? Has anybody seen the same style of worship or Christian mentality in their area or region?

Or is this just in my area and stake?

What does being a Christian mean to you? Is just the belief in God enough to qualify any of us as a "Christian"? Or do you think it takes more, a whole lot more, to be a "Christian"?

I am not comfortable with the term "Christian". Anciently Jesus called those that believed his teachings - disciples. The word disciple has the same root meaning as discipline. Thus a disciple of Christ is someone disciplined in mannerisms of Christ. I believe that a disciple lives a disciplinary life as taught by their master - Jesus Christ. The discipline of a disciple is by covenant to live and keep the commandments of Christ.

Sadly I have know many non-Christians that are more disciplined concerning the commandments of Christ - like the golden rule - like being meek - like loving their fellow men - than many claiming to be Christian.

I sometimes ask the question - If you were being accused of being a Christian - is there enough evidence to convict you of being a Christian in a court of law?

The Traveler

[SpiritDragon]

It is not exclusive to the South. I have seen this in Northern and Southern Alberta, Canada (home) and on my mission in Utah. In fact it is the very reason that many people are disillusioned with organized religion, because people put too much into being a part of the right church and too little into following the Saviour.

As for what it means to be Christian... it all depends on who you ask and what context. Evangelical Christians for instance can become very seclusive in their concept of christianity where not only are latter-day saints not considered Christian, but even Catholics and other groups that practice any form of religion that considers works essential to be un-Christian.

I like what the traveler had to say about discipleship over Christianity. I wanted to say more, but I need to go.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

So, I have been pondering...what does the populace at large think being a Christian is?

Is this just a Southern mentality that merely believing in God makes them a Christian and makes them religious?

What about other denominations, or other wards in other areas? Has anybody seen the same style of worship or Christian mentality in their area or region?

Or is this just in my area and stake?

What does being a Christian mean to you? Is just the belief in God enough to qualify any of us as a "Christian"? Or do you think it takes more, a whole lot more, to be a "Christian"?

I grew up in north carolina, and am now in utah. I'll just answer the questions and then make a few other comments.

In the south a Christian, depends on who you ask. Often (as was my experience), you have to believe in the Bible, the biblical Christ, and accept Him into your heart. What is really a Christian, in my mind. Simply a follower of Christ or as Traveler said, a Disciple of Christ.

The mentatlity of the South I feel is different in the Church, but people who join the church also bring the southern culture with them. The hospitality and a mindfulness to God in many areas of life. My boss read from the Bible during meetings. We prayed at school before games.

I feel southeners do live the Gospel and are charitable, but it isn't everyone. A lot do and they often do not parade what they've done. So testimony meeting for me, yes lots of gratitude, stories that would not include Gospel topics. But the people were humble, focused on Christ, and trying to grow. Home teaching was below 30% but people would serve each other when they were in need, they were friendly and warm to each other. Isn't that the idea of home teaching? To watch over the church and strengthen them? Yes the spiritual teaching isn't there as much but temporal needs are taken care of. Lots of service projects for widows, poor, and needy.

I did see the attitude you ask about. But it wasn't in many and I rarely saw that in the church. People were either believers or they weren't. There just were some that believe that once you receive Jesus into your heart, then you are saved and there is nothing to worry anymore. You've done it. That group can fit what you say. However,what was often taught is that good works would be manifest in their lives because of that acceptance. So, you would see people living good lives.

The truth is there are many hypocrites in the world, you will see it in other denominations, and you will see it in our church. (or at least people appear to be hypocrites though they may be quite good people) That does not mean the pure in heart aren't in other denominations, and they aren't in the church. It just means we see imperfections of people, but the real test is for us to progress and grow. We must try to become pure in heart so we put God first. I found it easier in Carolina than here in Utah. Every day I could have a conversation about God and what I believe. Here, I get a 2 minute conversation that doesn't get deep at all. I miss that aspect of the south.

People believe differently about Christ, but they are only doing the best with what they've got.

You mentioned failings in your ward about people accepting callings and other things. Sometimes the issue there is the people just don't know or understand that they are being asked by God through the person to take a calling. People just don't know sometimes. And that will go with anywhere you live.

I promise you this though. If you will look for the things(good) they are doing. If you try to learn from them. If you take their comments and ask questions about them(works best when they are talknig about a scripture and you try and figure out how they came to that conclusion and then see what is the truth). If you daily look for missionary opportunities and just open your mouth. If you do these things and study every day to be able to ponder on them. You will have words put in your mouth when the time comes. You will feel a love for these people. You will see their faith. You will grow in your testimony in our Lord Jesus Christ. Your faith will increase. Your desire to do right and be a true Christian will develop. And you will be happy and enthused because of your progress and growth, and seeing the good that God does for you every day.

[Guest gopecon]

I think that your question is a good one. I think Traveler hit it - how can you tell someone is a follower of Jesus? A true follower of Christ will live a different life than they otherwise would, throughout the week - not just on Sundays. Of course this applies accross the denominational spectrum.

That said, we need to be careful about judging individuals commitment based on the incomplete information that we have. Brother Jones may not do a great job on his home teaching because of a whole lot of factors that I am not aware of. He may be as committed of a Christian as there is in today's world, but various factors/challenges in his life may keep him from doing things like I think he should.

[Dravin]

I think that your question is a good one. I think Traveler hit it - how can you tell someone is a follower of Jesus?

According to Christ:

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

[rameumptom]

TG

This was true when I lived in Montgomery (just as deep South as where you are, if not deeper), and it is true in Indianapolis IN.

All we can do is teach correct principles, and hope they govern themselves....

[BrendaM]

To me, being a Christian means you keep on trying. Not setting yourself above people, regardless of which church they go to.

I know what you mean about testimony meetings though. I pray every fast sunday that I will hear a testimony born that will teach and touch my heart. It saddens me when I am about to take the sacrament and half our congregation shows up after it's been blessed and passed.

I think because we as LDS have the full gospel at this time, I tend to hold us on a higher level. Right or wrong, I just do. And when it's the same 6 or 7 families attending each time, it makes me sad.

[prisonchaplain]

"My heart follows hard after you..." "As the deer panteth for the water so my soul thirsts after you..." Etc. Or, as Keith Green said, "A real Christian is someone who is bananas for Jesus."

Sadly, many are hungry for heaven, and think they've found the trick to getting in--apprehending certain truths. Sad for them--even demons believe those truth--and they tremble in fear at them.

[Tough Grits]

Thanks for the responses so far. I guess the definition of Christian can be as simple as just believing that Christ was the Messiah, as deep as the discipleship that Traveler speaks of, or anywhere in between--regardless of denomination.

Thank you for the thoughtful posts so far. I really appreciate it.

I sometimes ask the question - If you were being accused of being a Christian - is there enough evidence to convict you of being a Christian in a court of law?

The Traveler

Traveler, thank you for your post. I really like the quote that you posted at the end. This is something I need to deeply ponder in regards to myself and my own "evidence".

[...]people put too much into being a part of the right church and too little into following the Saviour.

Yes! This is what I am experiencing in my ward and stake. I do not judge them. I just worry. I worry for them, and I worry for my little family. Though I do not judge, I don't want to become the same. Does that make sense?

I promise you this though. If you will look for the things(good) they are doing. If you try to learn from them. If you take their comments and ask questions about them(works best when they are talknig about a scripture and you try and figure out how they came to that conclusion and then see what is the truth). If you daily look for missionary opportunities and just open your mouth. If you do these things and study every day to be able to ponder on them. You will have words put in your mouth when the time comes. You will feel a love for these people. You will see their faith. You will grow in your testimony in our Lord Jesus Christ. Your faith will increase. Your desire to do right and be a true Christian will develop. And you will be happy and enthused because of your progress and growth, and seeing the good that God does for you every day.

Thank you. Very sweet, humble words. I am getting better (after 14 years living here) at loving despite the errors and forgiving despite the persecution (for being a "Molly" or for being "too" Mormon).

I do love them, despite my frustrations and questions. I really do feel protected here in the south, because these people are already so acclimated to God, Jesus, the scriptures, and attending Church. Truly, being here in the south I don't feel like I stick out for loving God or the gospel. That really is a huge plus.

Your words were beautiful. Thank you for taking the time to write them.

[Tough Grits]

"My heart follows hard after you..." "As the deer panteth for the water so my soul thirsts after you..." Etc. Or, as Keith Green said, "A real Christian is someone who is bananas for Jesus."

Sadly, many are hungry for heaven, and think they've found the trick to getting in--apprehending certain truths. Sad for them--even demons believe those truth--and they tremble in fear at them.

Wow. Thank you PC. Do you mind if I write that last paragraph down and stick it in my scriptures? Sobering words indeed, the kind that I need to ponder in regards to myself. Thank you, I am glad that you posted...I was hoping that you would!

[prisonchaplain]

You...and anyone...can quote anything I post on this site.

[Dove]

Tough Grits;

I just read your OP. Thank you so much for bringing this topic up. I think it's an important one.....

To me, being "Christian" is becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. This means through grace, and all that I can do, to emulate the "pure love of Christ" in my life...both for myself and all those around me. It is a process of sanctification and purification. I am learning not to "rely on the arm of flesh" at all in my testimony of Jesus Christ and His restored gospel.....To "pray for those who hate" me and "despitefully use me." I just had an experience with this with a person who kept attacking me. Now, i certainly was not perfect in responding. However, even though I apologised myself blue, it didn't stop her unkindness towards me. She places a great deal of value now in being "Christian," yet she didn't stop attacking until I stopped responding and ignored her......However, I've learned so much from this experience. That responding in kind is very wrong. How important it is to "turn the other cheek." To me, that means allowing the pain of my "friend" turning on me to wash over me, rather than getting angry and defensive in response. I realised that her anger really wasn't about me and wasn't my war to participate in. My "war" was to pray to forgive her and to apologise for the wrong I had done. I felt it was very important to pray for her in the process of forgiving her......

Some of my favourite passages of scripture talks about the Saviour suffering while here on this earth. It explains to me things that might be expected of me to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.....

"For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness: and when we shall see Him there is not beauty that we should desire Him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised and we esteemed Him not.

Surely He has borne our grief and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed.

All we, like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to His own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquities of us all."

I really like these scriptures. Oftentimes for me, the journey home is a lonely road.....Thus my need to rely more fully on God, the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.....To sacrifice the "good" (carnal desires) for the infinitely better, truly worshipping Jesus Christ.....

I might suggest not worrying about the "fair weather" Christians in life.......There are many. Truly following the Saviour will try you to the very core. I believe that I will never succeed in this process of being tried until I fully live Mosiah 3:19; "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord; and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

I'm sorrowing now for how much I've relied on the arm of flesh by allowing the wrongs of others overly influence me and derail me from my path to God. It is soo important to focus on the "beam" in my eye and to forget the "mote" in their eyes....As my brother counselled me awhile ago. I need to focus on keeping my side of the street clean rather than on others' side of the street....

Best of Luck

Dove

[Tough Grits]

After reading all the thoughtful posts on this thread...I stepped back and pondered what was really bothering me about the varying levels of "Christianity" around me.

I often hear members of my ward say that they are so thankful that they will be with their families forever.

I am bothered by the finality of those kind of comments, the "forgone conclusion" aspect of those statements.

Not because I judge them, but because I really think it is very presumptuous for anybody to conclude their final destination, as if judgement day is a mere technicality.

I don't know what glory I will attain on that day. I know what glory I am striving for, but I would be too fearful to ever proclaim or assume that I am already worthy of the celestial kingdom and that I knew for a surety that all my family would be there too.

This is a sincere question...Is it normal to strive to return back to God's presence, while thinking you are not quite there yet?

Those members (and other Christians too) who seem to "know" that they are going to be with Heavenly Father again seem sincere, and they seem so happy about their "knowledge", despite the fact that they are the same ones who confess that they don't read their scriptures, they don't do VT/HT, they don't attend their classes, miss sacrament on a regular basis, and so forth.

I have even heard a member state that hopefully all the good she does will make up for all the bad. She was sincere, but I believe that the only thing that eliminates the bad that we do is repentance, and the only things that makes up for our shortcomings is a sincere desire to change followed by continuous, consistent action to improve on those shortcomings. Then, after all we can do (works), Christ makes up the difference (grace). Right? Wrong?

Here I am worried about all my flaws, all my shortcomings, and the very long way I have to go before I could dare "dream of my mansions above", but others seem blissfully sure of their destination.

What am I missing? Where do you feel you fall in the two scenarios I have mentioned in this post? Still striving and worried, or blissfully happy and sure of your destination? ~TG

[Tough Grits]

I might suggest not worrying about the "fair weather" Christians in life.......There are many. Truly following the Saviour will try you to the very core.

It is soo important to focus on the "beam" in my eye and to forget the "mote" in their eyes....As my brother counselled me awhile ago. I need to focus on keeping my side of the street clean rather than on others' side of the street....

Best of Luck

Dove

Dove, thank you. I appreciate your words. Still, I wonder if my lack of "knowing" my destination is normal, or if it means I am doing horrible in my discipleship and followship.

[Dove]

Hello, Tough Grits.....

I'm sorry. I feel so frustrated right now. I had written a long response to your question. And somehow I erased all of it....But, I'll start again. :-)

You know, having what I wrote before all erased has caused me to reflect that perhaps I should take a different direction in answering you. I don't know. But, I'm thinking on this.....

Tough Grits, I do agree with you that we should never presume we have "made it." A great deal while here on earth. I believe that leads to complacency.

However, you speak of- "Here I am worried about all my flaws, all my shortcomings, and the very long way I have to go before I could dare "dream of my mansions above".......

I think that you can experience the sweet peace of the Spirit confirming to you that your sins are forgiven. That your efforts are pleasing to God and that He's pleased with you. This is not to presume that you are certain to be exalted. But, it is the comfort that you are in God's hands and He has your eternal welfare at heart. Perhaps to trust in Him that He will not lead you astray; but by following Him you will be given your hearts' desires.

Someone taught me long ago that all of this life is a "want to." That every experience we have, good ot bad, is there to teach us.......That even the opposition of life gives us an opportunity to choose what it is we really want. That truly living the commandments is not about the guilt trip (shoulda, coulda, woulda), shame or having to. What it is about is wanting it......and the absolute gratitude to God/the Saviour for providing us a way to get it.......

I also like the idea that I'm living a great deal of my eternity in this moment. Meaning, my heaven or hell is what I'm experiencing right now. Yet, I'm subject to intense bouts of depression and emotional pain. So, I'm not sure how much that would support this.

I think you are doing great. There are so many scriptures that tell us not to "exalt" ourselves; but, rather to "abase" ourselves in relation to God....

I think we often misinterpret the scripture "after all we can do." Here are some more scriptural references that might clear that up a little more. I'll list them out for you to peruse at your leisure....

Mosiah 2-5

Ether 12:27

Jacob 4:1-11

Can someone help me find the scripture in the New Testament that gives the parable of the two men praying, one talking about how righteous he is, the other pleading for forgiveness?

There are many others. I strongly feel you are on the right track....Even perhaps too hard on yourself. Might I suggest going to God in prayer concerning your standing before Him? Asking for the sweet reassurance of the Spirit that you are "okay?" I'm pretty tired right now. But, I'll try to find more scriptures to pass along to you that will support what you are feeling.

The Best

Dove

[ploomf]

"My heart follows hard after you..." "As the deer panteth for the water so my soul thirsts after you..." Etc. Or, as Keith Green said, "A real Christian is someone who is bananas for Jesus."

Sadly, many are hungry for heaven, and think they've found the trick to getting in--apprehending certain truths. Sad for them--even demons believe those truth--and they tremble in fear at them.

This reminds me of a story about Rabia Basri, she was a Muslim saint and mystic but I think this story can be a good lesson to Christians as well.

One day, Rabia was seen running through the streets of Basra carrying a torch in one hand and a bucket of water in the other. When asked what she was doing, she said,"I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God."

This gave me a lot to think about, do I do what I do because I love God, or just because I want the rewards of Heaven and am scared of hell? Sometimes to my shame I think it's the latter and not the former, I am working on learning to love God, not for any hope of reward but just because He's God.

[Tough Grits]

Yet, I'm subject to intense bouts of depression and emotional pain.

Again, thanks Dove. Me too, as far as the depression and emotional pain. I get over it pretty quick, thanks to prayer and medicine. Still, it is intense when it hits.

I feel comfortable as a Daughter of God. Meaning, I enjoy that role, and I am grateful for every day that I "get" to endure trials, that I "get" to improve myself, and that I "get" to proclaim what I know and love.

I hope it is clear that I am not down-trodden. I am not miserable in my followship. I enjoy the gospel, and I hope that is evident.

I have just been puzzled by what I have been seeing in my current area. I did not have the same experience in middle Georgia. In that ward I felt challenged, engaged, and "on fire", while being surrounded by others who I felt were on levels similar to mine.

I guess I am noticing the difference between this area that I have been living in for nine years now, as opposed to my previous area. I have also noticed that the complacency of others seems to be getting more pronounced as the years go by.

I guess this is natural, as these are the last days. Aren't we told that the members will begin to weed themselves out?

Here is a question though, maybe I haven't actually asked it--are those who are "blissfully ignorant" considered righteous?

They publicly delight in the Lord's love (not in an arrogant or pompous way) even as they proclaim and profess that they aren't really doing the things that they are supposed to be doing. Or the ones who feel that as long as they are not committing any of the "big" sins, then they are "good" people and are doing well (and they do so sincerely, not arrogantly).

That just puzzles me.

I am just curious about the different kinds of understanding that I see going on around me and in the world at large.

This is one of the last thoughts I had last night as I drifted off to sleep...

If ignorance is bliss and discipleship is hard, then I'll take discipleship every time.

Also, I can't remember where or who, but it was said that instead of "What think ye of Christ" we need to be concerned with what Christ thinks of us.

Well, I have to go to work. Thanks for the thoughts so far!! It feels good to express what has been rattling around in my mind for some time now.

[norah63]

Can two walk togeather except they be agreed? We walk with our Lord Jesus because we agree with what He has done for us. My friend that sticks closer than a brother. Our love is all we can offer. That came from our Heavenly Father and so we know that He will take care of us. Resting in that place of refuge.

Peace He gives to us, not as the world gives. So many have said it better, but one line in an old hymn goes, "the old account was settled long ago".

When the body of Christ is complete and we walk in love with each other, what can be wrong with that?

If works, or lack of them brings worry, then cast that care upon Jesus, He cares for you.

[Dravin]

I don't know what glory I will attain on that day. I know what glory I am striving for, but I would be too fearful to ever proclaim or assume that I am already worthy of the celestial kingdom and that I knew for a surety that all my family would be there too.

Are they saying they are now worthy of the Celestial Kingdom? Or are they trusting in the promises of the Lord to those who are faithful to him? Really it's all a matter of perspective, where you see hubris another can see trust in the promises of the Lord. And where you see a lack of hubris another can see a lack of trust in the promises of the Lord. Certainly we can agree that any doubt isn't going to be coming from the efficacy of the promises of the Lord, which leaves the variable to be the individual. So the question really is how much do you trust that you, generic you, are following the Lord and living according to his will?

I can see hubris/lack of faith in some declarations people make, but more often in situations I see misunderstanding. The Born Again who tells me he can kill me where I stand and still attain heaven lacks an understanding, from my perspective, of what a life of discipleship involves. On the flip side the LDS who speaks as if it is impossible to have any comfort in obtaining the blessings of the Lord, also has a flaw in their understanding by my reckoning. We don't have to wait until the judgement to know if we are living in accordance with the will of the Lord, that can be had in this life.

This is a sincere question...Is it normal to strive to return back to God's presence, while thinking you are not quite there yet?

Well if you were already in God's presence why would you be striving to return to his presence? That'd be like striving to get to Hawaii while already there. Clearly if you are striving to return to God's presence you aren't there yet by some degree. Just note that if someone thinks the path they are on is headed to Hawaii that doesn't mean they aren't continuing to strive to get there, striving doesn't require doubt that a destination is possible or that if one maintains one's heading (note the conditional) it will be obtained.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Dravin

[norah63]

In bible study we sing the scripture;

'I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live, yet not I, butChrist livith in me. And the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loves me an gave His life for me.

How have we made that so complicated? It is pure and simple, full of joy and gladness.

Each word so rich with truth. A complete sermon in a verse.

Reading each post in this thread has taught me about how the body see's its self (its part)

As we mature into the full measure of being the body complete. No division, no sickness or fear.

[prisonchaplain]

One day, Rabia was seen running through the streets of Basra carrying a torch in one hand and a bucket of water in the other. When asked what she was doing, she said,"I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God."

I get this. Yet, God created both heaven and hell. They are kingdom manifestations of what a world saturated by God is like, as well as what one absence his influence is like. The world today is largely unafraid of hell and untrusting of heaven. The pure motives Rabia sought may prove beyond any saint--Muslim, evangelical or LDS.

[Tough Grits]

Well if you were already in God's presence why would you be striving to return to his presence? That'd be like striving to get to Hawaii while already there. Clearly if you are striving to return to God's presence you aren't there yet by some degree. Just note that if someone thinks the path they are on is headed to Hawaii that doesn't mean they aren't continuing to strive to get there, striving doesn't require doubt that a destination is possible or that if one maintains one's heading (note the conditional) it will be obtained.

Thank you Dravin. That makes sense. I see the flaw in what I have been thinking. Duh! Of course I don't feel like I have made it yet...because I haven't. I wasn't seeing the forest for the trees. I just hope I live long enough to work most of the kinks out!! Again, thank you.

[Tough Grits]

Tonight, for family scripture study, we read in Alma.

As we were reading we came across two very interesting verses (Alma 4:10-11), that I thought hit on what has been bothering me lately.

In my opinion (from verse 10), this is the state that my ward is in..."failing in its progress". Few baptisms, low-retention, and high-inactivity. But a ward that is "failing in its progress", really means that it's members are not progressing spiritually as individuals.

Think of a chain--it will only be as strong as it's weakest link. We all need to be strengthening our individual spiritual "links" and thus we--in turn--become a strong "link" in the larger gospel "chain".

Verse 11 struck me as well. Taking it out of context, and trying to apply it to what I have been thinking, Christians of all denominations must set the standard. We must set the bar high. Otherwise, couldn't we be the ones causing society at large to regard religion as unnecessary or irrelevant?

Could the weakening of standards, weakening of followship from Christians of all denominations be a cause in the weakening of society?

If we want others to take the gospel seriously, and see it as something sacred, something worth attaining at any price, then shouldn't we be treating it that way?

Well, it starts with me...with you...with each of us. We have to make sure that we are the strong links, and then help others to become strong links as well.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Tonight, for family scripture study, we read in Alma.

As we were reading we came across two very interesting verses (Alma 4:10-11), that I thought hit on what has been bothering me lately.

In my opinion (from verse 10), this is the state that my ward is in..."failing in its progress". Few baptisms, low-retention, and high-inactivity. But a ward that is "failing in its progress", really means that it's members are not progressing spiritually as individuals.

Think of a chain--it will only be as strong as it's weakest link. We all need to be strengthening our individual spiritual "links" and thus we--in turn--become a strong "link" in the larger gospel "chain".

Verse 11 struck me as well. Taking it out of context, and trying to apply it to what I have been thinking, Christians of all denominations must set the standard. We must set the bar high. Otherwise, couldn't we be the ones causing society at large to regard religion as unnecessary or irrelevant?

Could the weakening of standards, weakening of followship from Christians of all denominations be a cause in the weakening of society?

If we want others to take the gospel seriously, and see it as something sacred, something worth attaining at any price, then shouldn't we be treating it that way?

Well, it starts with me...with you...with each of us. We have to make sure that we are the strong links, and then help others to become strong links as well.

I agree. The lowering standard I feel is very dangerous. It brings in peer pressure on one level, and on another the people you interact with misunderstand your tolerance for acceptance and approval of something(thus we get a lower standard).

At work there is one individual who will interrupt me briefly to say a joke that I think is inappropriate but really its so seemingly on the line that if I were to say something then it will make it a bigger issue than it really is. (I guess growing up with people who swore, did drugs, said off-color jokes, and whatever else that you would think is disrespectful so you ask the person to stop saying them.) For me I learned to tolerate it, I know my heart and what I will focus on. Sometimes asking people is good, but then you get others that saying more loudly and then it becomes even more annoying. Anyways, at work I just tolerate things, but lately it is bothering more and more. I feel though that my tolerance in the beginning was probably construed as acceptance and that I didn't mind the jokes. Reality is I did mind, I just don't let it bother me or worry about it unless it gets extreme.

I also know that the way I knew my parents were serious about the Gospel is they treated it serious. They were detailed, and attentive to little things. When the President Benson said no rated R movies. They made no exceptions. When President Hinckley said to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year, my parents worked to make it happen. They were disciplined and said hey this is the Gospel, this is the way it is. They made sure they were so far from the line that there was never any question in my mind what they expected or what they believed and what they would do. I feel that takes real sacrifice, and real giving in order for that to be achieved. It doesn't happen at once, but over time(like Elder Bednar's analogy with the wheat painting and Home Evening).

Then when I searched and gained my testimony. I developed my own expectations. Some based off my parents, some on the apostles and prophets that I studied, some from promptings. However, though those were the sources, I always made the choice and decision regarding what my expectation was. I set the standard where I felt it ought to be based on the understanding I had and felt. My expectations have changed based off experiences I've had. At times I feel I am too lenient and my standard has fallen, sometimes it is because of an attempt to love. Like above I am probably too lenient. But it might be better to put up with it rather than have contention at work, and then I'll hate going to work every day. So learning to balance. I really think that is one of the biggest things we work on in this life. Can we balance the Spirit and the temporal? Sometimes we are impatient, but really it might be because we are hungry.

So full circle, I agree we have to individually develop ourselves spiritually. Then we have to live a high standard. Not based off what we see. That I feel is the biggest detriment. so many people in society, in our homes, ourselves, we see things and think that is the way it is or how it should be but there can be a better way if we seek it. As a little kid at school it was always the doctor takes care of you when you are sick. I have since learned that there are many other people that work with your health and doctors seem to have the place as emergency care in my book. I had to be shown these other ways, otherwise I would never have known anything other than doctors take care of you when you are sick.

As far as the Gospel goes(for your question), I feel then we have to hold it up like it is sacred, it has to be a serious thing. Obviously not Pharisaical like "oh son you didnt read your scriptures you are going to hell!" That will teach the kid to hate it. so we need to avoid hypocrisy. That is why some people become atheist or agnostic because they see the hypocrisy and they don't believe anymore. But we have to be loving and firm in what we believe. Is it the most sacred thing to you? Is it the one you will pay the price no matter what? Is it what you devote your time and attention to? The way we treat it in our heart is how our actions will be shaped.

One of my favorite verses.

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.