I have learned a couple things throughout the night....

[Truther]

1. Apparently it is a calling from the lord to clean the ward building. Shouldn't this at least be a paid job. I know there are members out there that could use the job, and if the church can afford to build a Mall they can afford a Janitor.

2. My daughter, as a young women, may or may not have discussed sex with a grown man alone , behind closed doors. I don't know how to ask her, but I will , and if it is true. Some one will be answering to me! This is not cool!

3. Some have verified that if my daughter gets married civilly , she will have to wait an extra year to receive her eternal marriage, just so her father can participate in her wedding. Extremely LAME! This is NOT family friendly! It is EXCLUSIVE!

I don't know how I got through 25+ years of marriage to a Mormon and only learn these things by coming on this site. What have you done to my wife and daughter to cause them to be to stressed for me to ask these questions.

What Am I going to find out next time I come on here..... I am now committed. I have so many more questions now and I am determined to find the TRUTH.

Right now I feel that you as a Church have made me appear ineffective as a husband and father and that my family is just too nice to tell me. Maybe they don't want me to find out this stuff, because they don't want me to feel unqualified in their eyes.

[Mahone]

Hi Truther

1. Apparently it is a calling from the lord to clean the ward building. Shouldn't this at least be a paid job. I know there are members out there that could use the job, and if the church can afford to build a Mall they can afford a Janitor.

Maybe. But there are thousands of wards across the globe, meaning thousands of janitors. In terms of numbers, there are around 30,000 wards. A janitor on average gets paid $9 an hour. Most wards probably require 4 hours cleaning per week. That's $1,080,000 per week, $56,160,000 per year - just for cleaning costs. I know I'd rather my tithing went somewhere more worthwhile.

Incidentally, some wards do actually pay for a cleaner.

2. My daughter, as a young women, may or may not have discussed sex with a grown man alone , behind closed doors. I don't know how to ask her, but I will , and if it is true. Some one will be answering to me! This is not cool!

She may or may not have discussed sex with her science teachers at school too. Context is needed.

3. Some have verified that if my daughter gets married civilly , she will have to wait an extra year to receive her eternal marriage, just so her father can participate in her wedding. Extremely LAME! This is NOT family friendly! It is EXCLUSIVE!

You aren't the only person to be upset by this, and understandably so. But try and understand the reasons behind this, it may help to quell your concerns somewhat.

I don't know how I got through 25+ years of marriage to a Mormon and only learn these things by coming on this site. What have you done to my wife and daughter to cause them to be to stressed for me to ask these questions.

Did you ever ask them these questions about something they hold so dear? It's not exactly a secret... this information is publically available on the church website and elsewhere. I'm quite surprised this is the first you're hearing of it.

What Am I going to find out next time I come on here..... I am now committed. I have so many more questions now and I am determined to find the TRUTH.

You'll find out whatever information you ask for. Or you could research for yourself. Or ask your wife and daughter?

Right now I feel that you as a Church have made me appear ineffective as a husband and father and that my family is just too nice to tell me. Maybe they don't want me to find out this stuff, because they don't want me to feel unqualified in their eyes.

Why do you feel the church has caused this? Why do you think your family might fear telling you? How do you think you'd have reacted had they told you? Right now you're coming across as fairly condescending to a group of people you know nothing about and have never met.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Mahone

[skippy740]

#1 - the 'job' takes two hours a week.

As for everything else, you are asking your questions in a criticizing manner. I recommend that you read up on Stephen R. Covey's book "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" (who happens to be LDS) and discover the habit of "Seek First to Understand, THEN to be Understood".

You are criticizing most of the time. Some of it IS reasonable! I understand it and I get it. But you are harsh in your manners here. Please ask respectfully.

Even the Lord said:

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The "reasoning" is a discussion. It is an opportunity to be taught a higher way, as the Lord would teach. Of course He is the perfect teacher, but He will show respect as we respect Him. We should do the same with others.

[selek]

1. Apparently it is a calling from the lord to clean the ward building. Shouldn't this at least be a paid job. I know there are members out there that could use the job, and if the church can afford to build a Mall they can afford a Janitor.

To begin with, cleaning the chapel is not a "calling" in the classical sense, but a responsibility shared by all the members who worship in the building.

There are actually two aspects of this: others have pointed out the first, namely that the financial math isn't quite as cut-and-dry as you are want to pretend.

The second aspect, however, has to do with service to the Lord and respect for his property.

Labor in and upon the chapels and Temples of the Lord reinforces their value in our own hearts and minds.

By our very nature, we as human beings are "wired" to value (to honor and respect) that for which we labor over that which we are given.

By taking two hours a week (if that- it goes much quicker when lots of people show up), we are investing in that building- and learn to be thankful for what we have even as we seek to maintain it.

Moreover, it is an opportunity to serve- and to learn to serve gladly.

Selfless service is indeed the penultimate hallmark of a true disciple of Christ.

2. My daughter, as a young women, may or may not have discussed sex with a grown man alone , behind closed doors. I don't know how to ask her, but I will , and if it is true. Some one will be answering to me! This is not cool!

It's equally possible that she has had- without your approval and on your dime no less- a government functionary teaching her how to play games with condoms and how to get an abortion without your knowledge or approval.

Are you equally outraged about this impropriety?

3. Some have verified that if my daughter gets married civilly , she will have to wait an extra year to receive her eternal marriage, just so her father can participate in her wedding. Extremely LAME! This is NOT family friendly! It is EXCLUSIVE!

"Lame" (in this context) is a word found in the dictionary of twenty-somethings and hipsters.

Setting that aside, however, you're absolutely right it's exclusive.

It is INTENDED to be.

The Temple is not a chapel open to all and sundry who express a curiousity.

It is a sacred space, set aside, reserved, and purified through ritual and exclusivity. It is a model of Heaven on Earth. Just as no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, so to do we strive to keep the unclean and the profane from entering the Temple.

Just like the selfless service offered in cleaning the chapel, the Temple is a powerful object lesson to those who have eyes to see.

Yes- it has the potential to be divisive- but one has only to look so far as the New Testament Book of Matthew to understand the reasoning involved:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s afoes shall be they of his own bhousehold.

37 He that aloveth father or mother bmore than me is not worthy of me: and he that cloveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

If your daughter loves you more than the Lord, she is not worthy of a Temple marriage.

If your daughter is more concerned about doing what is right in YOUR sight than about what is right in the Lord's, then she is not a true disciple of Christ.

If your daughter is more worried about obeying you then obeying God, then she is not worthy of the blessings she hopes to receive.

As far as the "not family-friendly" nonsense goes, Mormon sealings (Temple weddings) built upon these principles succeed at a far higher rate than "normal" weddings because the "hurdles" and standards the couple is required to meet are far higher than a Vegas quickie or even a standard wedding.

Which is more family friendly: salving your wounded pride and selfish desire?

Or ensuring that your grandchildren have a stable, secure, and loving homelife as they grow up?

For me that's a no-brainer.

I don't know how I got through 25+ years of marriage to a Mormon and only learn these things by coming on this site.

We wonder the same things- but the fault (if any is to be had) is yours, not ours.

This information is not secret. It has not been hidden in any way.

What have you done to my wife and daughter to cause them to be to stressed for me to ask these questions.

If you are asking your wife and daughter these questions in the same combatative, obnoxious tone you are using here, then it is clear that the problem is in your approach, rather than the questions themselves.

We have "done" nothing to them.

For myself, I consider such a tone- mockery, derision, and condescension, to border on emotional abuse- particularly when directed at the ones we claim to cherish above all the world.

What Am I going to find out next time I come on here..... I am now committed. I have so many more questions now and I am determined to find the TRUTH.

Indeed- but given the dismissive tone you've displayed thus far, one wonders what you will do with it once you find it. Edited February 17, 2013 by selek

[ploomf]

You've been married to a Mormon for 25 years and it's only now that you are deciding that you don't like Mormonism? Like I asked on the other thread, what do you expect the Mormons on this site to do? They can answer questions but they can't change their beliefs for you. Some of the stuff you are complaining about seems just petty, is your wife complaining about being asked to help clean the church buildings? Are they asking you to? Is it taking your wife away from your family for a large amount of time? If not then why are you so upset about it? Do you know if your daughter was asked about sex? Have you even talked to her or your wife about it? The temple marriage thing does suck yes but have you asked your daughter about how she wants to handle it? Really if there are things that are bothering you your best bet is to sit down with your wife and daughter and have a reasonable discussion about them. I wouldn't use the combative and disrespectful tone that you've used here with your family however.

[pam]

One thing I do have to commend you on is this: You have mentioned being married 25+ years yet your profile states you are 42. So that would mean you must have gotten married quite young. If that is true..I commend you on making your marriage work for so many years. Most that start off that young don't make it.

Edited February 17, 2013 by pam

[estradling75]

What Am I going to find out next time I come on here..... I am now committed. I have so many more questions now and I am determined to find the TRUTH.

If you are here to find out the truth about what the LDS believe and how we practice our religion... Well you are in luck. That is why this site exists. We have a wide variety of different members with greatly diverse backgrounds and personal experiences.

But do understand that we have rules designed to keep this a place were LDS beliefs are displayed. And understand that we didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. We do have some experience dealing with people coming here and saying they want to learn the truth..

Generally they can be divided into two groups. Those who sincerely want to learn about us... And those are more interested in 'proving' us wrong then truly understanding us.

The first group is easy to identify. The first group asks questions, sometimes alot of questions depending on how much it takes for them to get what they feel is a good understanding. While doing so they are careful to avoid coming off as to confrontational or hostile, because they know that antagonized people are going to be more inclined to give defensive answers or give no answer at all. Now they don't necessary agree with our position once they find it out. They may find that for them it makes no sense whatever... But that doesn't stop them from gaining an understand of what and why we believe what we do

The second group is more concerned about being proven right, to beat that dead horse, to score a rhetorical point. They read responses not to understand but to gain ammo for their next shot.

Now the first group is more then welcome here. The second group we endure because we know it is only a matter of time before their over zealousness will cause them to break the site rules and get kicked out.

So here another truth for you Truther... What category you fall in to is completely up to you. So choose wisely, this site will respond as necessary to your choice.

Edited February 18, 2013 by estradling75

[Irishcolleen]

Generally they can be divided into two groups. Those who sincerely want to learn about us... And those are more interested in 'proving' us wrong then truly understanding us.

The first group is easy to identify. The first group asks questions, sometimes alot of questions depending on how much it takes for them to get what they feel is a good understanding. While doing so they are careful to avoid coming off as to confrontational or hostile, because they know that antagonized people are going to be more inclined to give defensive answers or give no answer at all. Now they don't necessary agree with our position once they find it out. They may find that for them it makes no sense whatever... But that doesn't stop them from gaining an understand of what and why we believe what we do

The second group is more concerned about being proven right, to beat that dead horse, to score a rhetorical point. They read responses not to understand but to gain ammo for their next shot.

Now the first group is more then welcome here. The second group we endure because we know it is only a matter of time before their over zealousness will cause them to break the site rules and get kicked out.

So here another truth for you Truther... What category you fall in to is completely up to you. So choose wisely, this site will response as necessary to your choice.

I try hard to be in the 1st group : )

[pam]

I try hard to be in the 1st group : )

I like having you here. :)

[carlimac]

Perhaps your wife and daughter are stressed about you asking these questions because they fear your anger as you jump to conclusions or misunderstand. If you take the time to calm yourself down, listen with open ears, heart and mind, and be convinced that there is a reasonable explanation to every question, you might have less stressed family members.

About the discussion of sex with a grown man, I can assure you that if your daughter has not participated in anything of a sexual nature, there are very general questions a bishop will ask, such as "Are you morally clean?" That's hardly discussing sex. If she isn't morally clean, the nature of the mistakes will need to be discussed although still, I doubt she'd be asked to describe a play by play. It's the job of many eclesiastical leaders of many churches to act as a "judge" of sorts when it comes to these things. "Father, I have sinned" sound familiar?

Edited February 18, 2013 by carlimac

[THIRDpersonviewer]

If you are here to find out the truth about what the LDS believe and how we practice our religion... Well you are in luck. That is why this site exists. We have a wide variety of different members with greatly diverse backgrounds and personal experiences.

But do understand that we have rules designed to keep this a place were LDS beliefs are displayed. And understand that we didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. We do have some experience dealing with people coming here and saying they want to learn the truth..

Generally they can be divided into two groups. Those who sincerely want to learn about us... And those are more interested in 'proving' us wrong then truly understanding us.

The first group is easy to identify. The first group asks questions, sometimes alot of questions depending on how much it takes for them to get what they feel is a good understanding. While doing so they are careful to avoid coming off as to confrontational or hostile, because they know that antagonized people are going to be more inclined to give defensive answers or give no answer at all. Now they don't necessary agree with our position once they find it out. They may find that for them it makes no sense whatever... But that doesn't stop them from gaining an understand of what and why we believe what we do

The second group is more concerned about being proven right, to beat that dead horse, to score a rhetorical point. They read responses not to understand but to gain ammo for their next shot.

Now the first group is more then welcome here. The second group we endure because we know it is only a matter of time before their over zealousness will cause them to break the site rules and get kicked out.

So here another truth for you Truther... What category you fall in to is completely up to you. So choose wisely, this site will respond as necessary to your choice.

I agree that there are people who really do want to understand and others who are not. You expressed it so well that I felt I should quote here the two groups.

However, I get extremely concerned at times that we might drive people away because of how we respond to people. If it is the opinion of someone that our religion is lame then let it be. If something breaks site rules then that is for moderators to correct however they feel, though a private message would seem best suited to me imo. I've not observed what is done in that regard.

But that isn't for all of us to tell a person that the comment was inappropriate and start harping on them, openly questioning how sincere or genuine someone is. Usually when someone questions whether I am genuine or not, then usually I get turned off to whoever I am talking to. Once sincerity is questioned, trust is broken. Therefore there is no more growth or increase in understanding.

So, yes there are two groups, but one comment that may not be worded how we like it should not determine how we respond. Even if we see multiple comments, we still should be civil, trusting, and supportive of the person. (As I Christ taught us to forgive seventy times seven).

Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. We should give the benefit of the doubt. I don't see that given very often. Being defensive destroys missionary work.

[pam]

I agree that there are people who really do want to understand and others who are not. You expressed it so well that I felt I should quote here the two groups.

However, I get extremely concerned at times that we might drive people away because of how we respond to people. If it is the opinion of someone that our religion is lame then let it be. If something breaks site rules then that is for moderators to correct however they feel, though a private message would seem best suited to me imo. I've not observed what is done in that regard.

But that isn't for all of us to tell a person that the comment was inappropriate and start harping on them, openly questioning how sincere or genuine someone is. Usually when someone questions whether I am genuine or not, then usually I get turned off to whoever I am talking to. Once sincerity is questioned, trust is broken. Therefore there is no more growth or increase in understanding.

So, yes there are two groups, but one comment that may not be worded how we like it should not determine how we respond. Even if we see multiple comments, we still should be civil, trusting, and supportive of the person. (As I Christ taught us to forgive seventy times seven).

Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. We should give the benefit of the doubt. I don't see that given very often. Being defensive destroys missionary work.

I would agree with you to a point. But when you have a poster with less than 10 posts and 95% of them have been extremely negative towards our beliefs and our religion you get a feel as to where it's going to go.

Especially when the blame for any misunderstanding or miscommunication with his own family is being put on the church. That's where I draw the line.

[Dravin]

Once sincerity is questioned, trust is broken.

No, trust is broken before sincerity is questioned. You don't question the sincerity of someone you trust, though maybe saying trust is absent rather than broken may be more accurate.

[Guest]

FYI, estradling IS a mod. . .

[Anddenex]

I wouldn't be surprised if Truther and Thinker are one in the same person.

[selek]

I wouldn't be surprised if Truther and Thinker are one in the same person.

Or dirtydevil, or any of the other plethora of recent sockpuppets.

Still, on the off chance he's sincere....

[Anddenex]

Still, on the off chance he's sincere....

Yes, this is my hope, that he is sincere...

[pam]

Sincere or not, there are still better ways to approach questions and responses.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

No, trust is broken before sincerity is questioned. You don't question the sincerity of someone you trust, though maybe saying trust is absent rather than broken may be more accurate.

It depends on which side of the trust is broken. For instance, I ask you a question then you question. I am not the best communicator, and say you don't like one or two of my words that I use. Then you say you don't think I am sincere. To me I trusted you until you questioned my sincerity. Your trust might have been broken as I was speaking but to me it was not. One person can trust someone while the other does not trust in return. So I agree depending on what side. I hope that helps explain better what I meant. does it? And I hope you forgive me using you as an example I was only doing that so it was easier to communicate what I meant :) And it is probably better to say trust is absent.

I don't know how to make multiple quotes so I will just reply here.

To Eowyn

I wasn't questioning what estradling said in the least, I had read 4 or 5 posts in a row on an earlier thread to truther that me as a member reading wouldn't even want to listen for an answer. So, when I saw what estradling wrote I was like "that is exactly the two groups." I have thought about this before and I saw finally a simple passage regarding an observation I've seen but have not known how to put it into words. I believe there are two groups and there are also two sets of reactions that I have noticed that go with each group. And I was trying to find a way to communicate a worry of mine. It was made easy with the quote and I tried to say I was only quoting estradling because I loved the way he put the observation.

To pam

As you are head moderator, I'd say you have responsibility and it's necessary to be a judge of where one comment has gone too far or not. So measures need to be taken to make sure things do not get out of hand and as estradling said, "the gospel can be displayed here." But what about everyone else who is not a moderator, and judgmental comments are made after one or two posts. I've seen that multiple times over the last few years. That is what I am concerned about.

I agree sincere or not there are better ways to ask questions. But sometimes we don't communicate things best. My post is the perfect example. I saw an observation, it was a concern to me, I addressed it with related issues. To me, I don't see others making the same observation so I thought I would bring it up because the dangers, I believe, can be far reaching.

In reply I was told the person I quoted is a moderator, that my comment about trust was inaccurate(which I agree though Id rather say it was incomplete because as I explained, and hopefully showed, it depends on how you view the trust), and that what was said indicated a certain pattern and that a line needed to be drawn because it was crossing site rules about the church. And also that things could be communicated better.

Based off responses, I gather that I was not completely understood that way I was intending. So it suggests that I didnt communicate it in the best way.

Anyways, that is why I try to understand what is trying to be communicated rather than specific words, a lot of the time. Sometimes the words just sound real bad, but the person may be as sincere as they can.

I like this, "Yo dawg I wuz chillin at my comp and i wuz thinkin dat all i gots to do is pray. and dats it. God will be der and protect me and my family and all i can say is man dat right. you get wat im sayin g?"

How would that be interpreted? Sometimes I do actually talk like that. I grew up in the south, hung with my brothers. But Im sure someone would say something like I need to show more respect for God and no that is not all that you have to do. And I would be told that in a more demaning manner than what I simply just said. I say, "well, God speaks to us in our own language and own understanding." If that was how God spoke to me, then what right does one have to demean the way I worship? People come on here and may not have the best vocabulary or education or social skills or typing skills. Some people write on a sheet of paper or speak better than they type. Some people use things as a defense mechanism because that is all they have to try and cut the anxiety they feel.

Here is one example about someone I grew up with. I was 8 years old a boy walks into class drops his scriptures and kicks them into the wall over and over again. What do you do? He then starts to talk about how he is ashamed of his father, he hates his father, he drinks, he hates his family, he hates his brother, and so on. As years go by he gets picked on ALL THE TIME. He comes to church until he is about 14 or 15 when I think it was too much. Reasons he was picked on, he was overweight, glasses, not athletic, not musically gifted(these two were what most of our youth was talented at), his voice cracked a lot(probably from low self-esteeem, i dont blame him, he did eventually get voice lessons which helped a lot), couldnt sing, he was super smart but sarcasm was a major problem in our ward and so less smart people would say something and this guy just wanted to fit in so he would laugh or say i know but then the other people would start laughing and say stuff like "he laughed hahaha." On top of that he had no friends, his family life was rough, his older brother made fun of him for the same reasons. So I tried to be his friend, but he would just respond and make fun of me. I got picked on a lot myself so it wasn't very fun and after awhile i just stopped. But looking back and seeing everything he went through, I see why he would lash back at me. Of course at that age I never understood.

Sometimes though with some people who I have felt like have probably been a little overexpressive with their shock and some answers, I feel have been demeaned by members. What I see is a guy who is trying to figure this stuff out, but the answers are huge to him. He is jumping into WAY foreign waters and is like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa is this for real man that is unbelievable!! And the language is used that he feels best expresses that. It is more than what was expected. But he is still there trying to learn.

We've been in the church so long or been active so long, that we forget what it is like to not have our testimonies and when one lives by a completely different set of rules and is not paying attention to another set, then decides to really jump in without knowing what to expect, yeah id say it will be a little crazy.

My sum up is the underlined section. The other stuff was to hopefully shed light on where I am coming from.

Does that make sense? Is there something that would be better if it was clarified?

[pam]

You make sense and make some good points. I do appreciate your comments.

[Iggy]

Truther ~ What I have learned from reading your 9 posts in your four threads you started and in one other thread started by another is:

1. Your wife and her family are *born in the covenant* people. In LDS lingo this means that her Grandparents were married and sealed in the Temple before they had her parents. Her parents were married and sealed in the Temple before your wife was born.

2. You're daughter is 23 years old and is endowed.

3. You have been married for 25 years. Thus you married when you were 17.

4. You are baiting the members of this forum. You already know the answers to each and every question you have asked. How could you not know after living with your very active in the church wife, and her entire LDS family for 25 years? Were you in a coma for the majority of that time??

5. My theory as to why you are doing this is that you have already asked these questions, received answers from your In-laws, and have argued, dissed them and gained absolutely no ground with them.

You do not want the truth, you want to argue. You want at least one LDS person to agree with you. Not going to happen!

[Wingnut]

How could you not know after living with your very active in the church wife, and her entire LDS family for 25 years? Were you in a coma for the majority of that time??

That's what I'm hung up on.

[Windseeker]

I don't know how I got through 25+ years of marriage to a Mormon and only learn these things by coming on this site.

You've got us all stumped on this one I'm afraid. I bet if you dug deep you could probably answer that question. You might want to consider your next question.

What have I done to my wife and daughter to cause them to be to stressed when I ask these questions.

fixed

What Am I going to find out next time I come on here..... I am now committed. I have so many more questions now and I am determined to find the TRUTH.

It's about time. The truth shall set you free. Hopefully you will see how blessed and loved you are not only by your patient family who have put up with you all these years but also by your Heavenly Father.

[Wingnut]

What have I done to my wife and daughter to cause them to be to stressed when I ask these questions.

fixed

Yep.