does the bible really support the slavery and eternal torture in hell for non-beliver?


MissSpider
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Hey i'm Lds member so i dont belive in hell. but when i read in the bible, it talk about hell and fire and tortue forever for those who won't accept christ. is that true or it is just analogy?

also , do the bible support slavery? i was quite amaze to see what it said on this website What the Bible says about slavery

i think i need to read it and find explaination point by points, but if some of you here know the answer. please help me out.

one person asked me "is it ever occure that Holy ghost ever told the bible writers(prophets+apostles) that slavery is wrong"?

i couldn't explain this 2 issues to my non-religious friends: eternal tortue in hell, and slavery.

please help

oh, by any chance, if you guy also know... why in the old testament God was so mean, so scary. in the new testament, Jesus was so loving and caring. why is it super contradict.

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Hey i'm Lds member so i dont belive in hell. but when i read in the bible, it talk about hell and fire and tortue forever for those who won't accept christ. is that true or it is just analogy?

also , do the bible support slavery? i was quite amaze to see what it said on this website What the Bible says about slavery

i think i need to read it and find explaination point by points, but if some of you here know the answer. please help me out.

one person asked me "is it ever occure that Holy ghost ever told the bible writers(prophets+apostles) that slavery is wrong"?

i couldn't explain this 2 issues to my non-religious friends: eternal tortue in hell, and slavery.

please help

oh, by any chance, if you guy also know... why in the old testament God was so mean, so scary. in the new testament, Jesus was so loving and caring. why is it super contradict.

I can only give you my view as a Catholic so keep that in mind. We definitely believe in hell and it really has nothing to do with whether or not one is a believer. The demons believe in Jesus, and shudder. It matters if one is faithful to God.

Hell is mentioned more times in the Bible than is heaven and Jesus is quite clear on the matter:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire." (Mark 9:43)

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48)

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

There are many, many more, but this is a pretty good start.

We do not believe that God, out of some kind of anger, sends anyone to Hell. In fact, no one is more grieved at a soul going to hell then is God. Christ gave his life so that we all might have eternal life and he desires to loose none.

God never interferes in one's free will. If one chooses a life apart from God, then that is exactly what he gets; for eternity. And that is hell; life apart from God. God sends no one to hell, people go there of their own free will.

Edited by StephenVH
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so how about ppl who are good,but live far away from God? peoole from different religious who are good, and those who never know God(like ppl from far away island) would they be send to hell too?

and chatolic believe that human were save by faith alone, but people will be judge acording to their work. this part is quite confusing to me.

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MS,

One of the tenets of the LDS faith is that ALL will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel- whether in this life or the next.

This is the primary reason we do baptisms and other ordinances on behalf of the dead: so that those who choose to accept the fullness of Christ's gospel may do so without waiting for ordinances that can be performed only in mortality.

While we agree with other denominations that this is the life we are given to repent and make our lives right with God- but those whom the Lord feels have not received a fair and free opportunity to do so will be afforded the opportunity before the final judgement.

Under no circumstances does this knowledge justify us in procrastinating our repentance- we will be judged according to the light we have received.

While we as Latter-day Saints are somewhat reluctant to embrace the traditional concept of Hell and its associated imagery (demons, pitchforks, flames and endless Friends re-runs), we do nonetheless believe that Outer Darkness is a close analogue.

According to LDS theology, there are four kingdoms in the afterlife: three within Heaven and then Outer Darkness/Hell.

Those who made the most of their opportunities to become Christ-like (or according to God's perfect knowledge, would have had they been given the chance) will reside in the highest, or Celestial, Kingdom.

Those good and godly who walked uprightly before the Lord- but who would not accept the fulness of his Gospel, will reside in the Terrestrial Kingdom.

Those who have (ultimately) paid for their own sins (instead of accepting the Atonement) will reside in the lowest or Telestial kingdom.

Outer Darkness/Hell is reserved specifically for those who not only reject Christ's mercy, but who also wage war against him and seek to undermine his divine mission.

Despite our other disagreements, I have to agree with StephenVR- your ultimate reward will be what you make of it.

One more point (before the meds kick in and I forget):

We do not believe that perfect justice requires (or even allows) an endless punishment for a finite crime.

Or to put it another way: "A just God will not **** you to Hell for all eternity because you once stole a candy bar when you were five years old."

In this instance "Eternal punishment" refers to the type of punishment, rather than it's duration.

Among God's titles are the terms "everlasting", "eternal", and "without end".

"Eternal punishment" does not refer to punishment without end, but rather to divine punishment as meted out by God.

Edited by selek
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Hey i'm Lds member so i dont belive in hell.

Not sure what that means. The Book of Mormon mentions the word 55 times, the D&C 21 times.

Gospel Topics: Hell

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

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Hey i'm Lds member so i dont belive in hell. but when i read in the bible, it talk about hell and fire and tortue forever for those who won't accept christ. is that true or it is just analogy?

also , do the bible support slavery? i was quite amaze to see what it said on this website What the Bible says about slavery

i think i need to read it and find explaination point by points, but if some of you here know the answer. please help me out.

one person asked me "is it ever occure that Holy ghost ever told the bible writers(prophets+apostles) that slavery is wrong"?

i couldn't explain this 2 issues to my non-religious friends: eternal tortue in hell, and slavery.

please help

oh, by any chance, if you guy also know... why in the old testament God was so mean, so scary. in the new testament, Jesus was so loving and caring. why is it super contradict.

I am LDS and will give my opinion. First off the ancient defination of Hell is death.

I believe the answer to your question is in understanding the difference between good and evil - which is similar to understanding the difference between G-d and Satan. In Eden there was a tree called the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The knowledge of the two are in the knowledge or experience of death - which is the result and the demonstration of evil.

The knowledge of good is eternal life - note that one cannot have both. A temporary life that results in death is not the example of good. Thus in order to experience eternal life we must be resurrected through the disciplinary sacrifice and resurrection of Christ.

So we learn that the first step towards good is the step of sacrifice (or discipline) - specifically the sacrifice of self. This is why Jesus said that the only way to find one's self is to lose or sacrifice self.

The first step towards evil is the opposite of sacrifice - it is self indulgence or the refusal of discipline.

Rater than continue with my understanding of all the steps to good and evil - I will point out the conclusion of continuing a journey towards good or towards evil.

The results of pursuing a course of sacrifice and discipline is to know truth and to be free. (see John 8:32)

The results of pursuing a course or desires, wants and passions given into self indulgence is bondage and slavery.

The Traveler

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so how about ppl who are good,but live far away from God? peoole from different religious who are good, and those who never know God(like ppl from far away island) would they be send to hell too?

You must have missed the part of my post that says that we don't believe God sends anyone to hell, rather they have made a decision to live their life without God and go there on their own. We also believe that there is no person who cannot be saved. We can only be judged according to how we have responded to what we have received. One who has never heard of Christ is not prevented from following the laws God has written on the hearts of all men. If God is love, as John tells us, then God is present wherever there is love. How they respond to that love is how they will be judged.

and chatolic believe that human were save by faith alone, but people will be judge acording to their work. this part is quite confusing to me.

No, Catholics do not believe we are saved by faith alone. That notion came from Luther, not the Catholic Church. We believe that we are saved by grace alone. We respond to that saving grace through both faith and works. So, no more confusion!

Edited by StephenVH
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i mean Hell like burning fire for eternity

i believe that in Mormon..hell is an outer darkness. but hell doesn't have fire.

that what the missionaries teach me.

We are forced to speak in human language. I don't know too many people who believe that there is real fire in hell. There are many ways to burn. One is realizing the loss of heaven and being completely separated from God. What could be worse?

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One is realizing the loss of heaven and being completely separated from God. What could be worse?

We know that that which is evil and sinful cannot tolerate the unfiltered presence of God.

Can you imagine what it would be like to be damned, stripped of the veil, and yet still unable to escape his presence?

In that sense, Hell and Outer Darkness would be a mercy, not a torment.

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We know that that which is evil and sinful cannot tolerate the unfiltered presence of God.

Can you imagine what it would be like to be damned, stripped of the veil, and yet still unable to escape his presence?

In that sense, Hell and Outer Darkness would be a mercy, not a torment.

Absolutely, and escaping his presence is exactly the process that lands one in hell. That is why I say that God doesn't throw people into hell. They run there to escape God because of their sin and shame and their rejection of him in this life.

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Absolutely, and escaping his presence is exactly the process that lands one in hell. That is why I say that God doesn't throw people into hell. They run there to escape God because of their sin and shame and their rejection of him in this life.

I agree - I think, with what your are saying. I see the great judgement as a joyful time as we have personal time with the most intelligent, kind and loving individual there is. This will be a time of real honesty void of all pretense and misleading notions.

I believe G-d will discuss with us our deepest loves and desires. He will then show us all there is to be known of His Kingdom of heaven and an eternal existence of service. I believe that many will look upon this possibility and in full knowledge express in truth that they desire a place of golden opulence when they can rest from endless labor of service for others and where they can enjoy the bounties of their "seemingly good efforts" or faith to obtain "blessing" or as they understand "Salvation" where they get for themselves all that they desire for themselves.

At which time G-d will show them a kingdom exactly suitable to their selfish desires. I think the unhappiness that will follow will be as individuals look around their heaven and discover who else is there.

The Traveler

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As far as slavery goes If you interpret not outlawing and regulating as condoning something then I guess you could make the case that it condones it.

But if you read thru the regulations, it enforces treating slaves no different then family members are treated.

During that time you would probably consider yourself extremely lucky if you were taken by the Israelites.

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Revelation21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

fiery lake of burning sulfur >,< (i think that a lot of people really believe that there is a fire hell)

--this is what a guy asked me,,, um,,, i don't know how to answer--

Okay, how do you "interpret" the following passage?--the revelation21:8 (For the record, I don't interpret it; I take it at face value. I think if Christians or you "interpret" it to mean something else it's code for "I'm in denial about what the Bible says God is"):

Edited by MissSpider
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Revelation21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

fiery lake of burning sulfur >,< (i think that a lot of people really believe that there is a fire hell)

--this is what a guy asked me,,, um,,, i don't know how to answer--

Okay, how do you "interpret" the following passage?--the revelation21:8 (For the record, I don't interpret it; I take it at face value. I think if Christians or you "interpret" it to mean something else it's code for "I'm in denial about what the Bible says God is"):

Does it really matter if it is a lake of burning sulfur, or a cold dark place devoid of any love or mercy or compassion? The point is that those who go there will live for eternity in the complete absence of God or any of God's attributes. Nothing could be worse.

By the way, you have made an interpretation by deciding that the verse is to be taken literally. One cannot read anything without interpreting it; that is how we extract meaning from what is being said. So you have made your interpretation and have stated that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation is in error. Just sayin'...

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Revelation21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

fiery lake of burning sulfur >,< (i think that a lot of people really believe that there is a fire hell)

--this is what a guy asked me,,, um,,, i don't know how to answer--

Okay, how do you "interpret" the following passage?--the revelation21:8 (For the record, I don't interpret it; I take it at face value. I think if Christians or you "interpret" it to mean something else it's code for "I'm in denial about what the Bible says God is"):

Setting aside from the fragmented (nay, shattered) nature of that thought, it is important for you to realize that the Book of Revelations (especially the Book of Revelations) is written as metaphor and symbolism.

I recommend the following piece by Gerald N. Lund:

Seeing the Book of Revelation As a Book of Revelation - Ensign Dec. 1987 - ensign

"But in a study of the book of Revelation, the interpretation of symbols becomes essential. The Apocalypse was painted with a symbolic brush. The palette was filled with metaphors, similes, symbols, and images, which require that we study it with those in mind. "

For myself, I want to say bluntly that the idea that "if you don't agree with my interpretation of Scripture then you're in denial" is a particularly vile piece of binary thought.

It is not indicative of a mind open to learning, nor of one receptive to new thought or wisdom.

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As far as slavery goes If you interpret not outlawing and regulating as condoning something then I guess you could make the case that it condones it.

I agree with you. If one had the power to change the civil laws of the country they would be obligated by moral law to outlaw slavery. The early Christians, however, had no power to do anything. They were being persecuted, not making civil law. As you state below, the Christian position was to love, regardless of one's station in life. We have to remember also that having indentured servants was very common and was actually an act of mercy in most cases. For instance, if one was a widow without family to care for her she would be brought in to live with an outside family and help with the chores in return for room and board.

But if you read thru the regulations, it enforces treating slaves no different then family members are treated.

During that time you would probably consider yourself extremely lucky if you were taken by the Israelites.

Exactly.

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hey guy, please tell me i had done enough.

the antheist guy i talk to still keep repeating revelation21:8

he said that the mormon way of interpret is wrong, and for normal christian , he said that God's a psychopath that burning people alive( non-christian) and other bad people for eternity.

for mormon, outer darkness also form of torturing even with no fire.

he said that God is a psychopath, and we are worshiping a psychopath.

i don't know what to do anymore.

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hey guy, please tell me i had done enough.

the antheist guy i talk to still keep repeating revelation21:8

he said that the mormon way of interpret is wrong, and for normal christian , he said that God's a psychopath that burning people alive( non-christian) and other bad people for eternity.

for mormon, outer darkness also form of torturing even with no fire.

he said that God is a psychopath, and we are worshiping a psychopath.

i don't know what to do anymore.

Quit talking to him. The guy is not interesting in learning anything; he wants to win the argument. Let him win. Perhaps one day he will be in a mood to listen and see if maybe he's not as smart as he thinks he is. Until then, conversation is useless.

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hey guy, please tell me i had done enough.

the antheist guy i talk to still keep repeating revelation21:8

he said that the mormon way of interpret is wrong, and for normal christian , he said that God's a psychopath that burning people alive( non-christian) and other bad people for eternity.

for mormon, outer darkness also form of torturing even with no fire.

he said that God is a psychopath, and we are worshiping a psychopath.

i don't know what to do anymore.

Well first of all I wouldn't in the least let him upset me. Anyone who persists in his belief will find out first hand whether or not hell is real. What you need to do is pray for him. Pray that God will open his heart and mind to accepting the grace that our Lord wishes to pour out on him before its too late. You know the truth that our God is no psychopath. If this guy has resorted to dishonoring God there is no need for you to carry on the conversation any further. He is not interested in hearing the truth. Even the Apostles had to walk away from some and shake the dust from their sandals.

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I'm not sure if I can express an idea I've been thinking of, but here goes.

I believe scripture clearly teaches that hell is eternal (ie for ever)

I believe hell is a place of punishment.

It includes the idea of a 2nd death.

Death involves us becoming less and less of what we are, those who choose evil shrink their souls and all they are. (Whereas those in heaven who have eternal life are ever expending and able to experience greater and greater joy)

Life grows and enlarges, Death shrinks.

I have had an idea which I have not yet had the time to really test against scriptures. What if hell is an eternal punishment but the punishment is the diminishing of who we are. The diminishing goes on forever and is eternal. But as we diminsh our ability to suffer diminishes.

Rather like an asymptote in maths which for ever moves towards zero but never reaches it.

This would make the punishment eternal and unending but effectiviley limit the cruelness of it. it never ends but is not eternal torment of the utmost kind.

When you enter hell, all goodness is removed, only the evil in a person is left with them. The more evil someone is the more evil there is to diminsh, therefore the greater their suffering. Correspondingly people with less evil would diminsh faster and therefore suffer comparatively less.

Edited by AnthonyB
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