Is there a GOD??


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Just a note - there are many things in science considered to exist that no one has ever seen. It is generally accepted that there are elements, as well as sub atomic particles that exist. All this despite the fact that such thing have never been seen and only theorized to exist with no more evidence than the possibility of a G-d.

However, it has been shown that many of the theories concerning G-d have been demonstrated to be unnecessary in order for there to be a universe created in the way many believers in G-d insist was the case. For example man's current understanding of Physics will account for all that we are able to observe in our universe - Steven Hawkins presents this in a very straight forward and logical manner. As far as we know from recorded history this knowledge has never been available to man before.

What troubles me is that science continues to hone our understandings so that we can investigate the universe around us and consistently predict future behavior of the universe. Many in religion have refused to learn and apply these principles because they contradict the uninspired evolved perceptions of G-d that they believe. Since many religionist reject almost all that is being discovered and as such have fallen behind in understanding and ability to predict future behaviors of the universe with any more accuracy than was possible several thousands of years ago. As a result religion has lost significant creditability in the opposition to science. I have always asked the question - If a religion cannot interpret and understand the objective evidence given directly by studying the empirical universe - how can they be trusted to to properly interpret and understand the subjective spiritual things?

The Traveler

I would say there is more evidence for the existence of subatomic particles by experiments and measuring (i.e. using particle accelerators like CERN or DESY / Hamburg) than for the existence of a god.The Christian religion can not interpret or understand knowledge resulting from science, because it is captured within its own fundamental and absolute perceptions. Faith is something between ignorance and knowledge, and for me it seems to be some kind of capitulation in view of all the seemingly unsolvable mysteries of nature and science surrounding us.

It's easier to believe in a supernatural being and creator and eternal life and to ignore many facts resulting from modern research and science than facing reality in an objective way. Science gives us knowledge and feelings of uncertainty, religion comforts us with consolation and peace.

My personal belief is, in a gnostic way, there is a long road we are walking on, and there are many turnings leading to dead ends. One of my personal credos is: Why should I read an old book or scripture when I can read a new book or modern scripture reflecting modern experience and knowledge? Why should I believe that a small planet Earth and mankind once were created when I could believe that a whole universe probably once was created...?

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Hmmmm, I am looking back through my posts and I never used the word "impossible".

But, I will say that I have relaxed my view about this after discussing with Addenex and others. Yes, for sure God could deliver messages any way He chooses, even through a piece of toasted bread with the image of Christ on it. But, my discussion wasn't about limiting God it was about where we go to learn about God and communicate with Him. People try to find God in the oddest of places and through the oddest of methods all the time. Some will try to smoke marijuana to find spiritual enlightenment, for example. The point I was trying to make is that the most often used method of communicating with God requires conscious effort. It usually requires prayerful thought, pondering and being in tune to the spirit, like when Daniel interpreted the dream.

Some people chant to put themselves in an altered state to hope to find spiritual enlightenment. And there are some that try to have lucid dreams to communicate with God. If God chooses to communicate with us when we aren't listening (at least consciously) then He can do that but I wouldn't promote the idea. Again, we are talking about what we do, not what is possible for God. I believe God would rather have us learn conscious control over our body rather than use methods of loss of control. Maybe my belief is wrong but that is what I get from the gospel of Christ, the more excellent way. Yes, before Christ came there was the physical law of circumcision and so the focus was on the physical body but now we are to be circumcised of spirit, the more excellent way to allow us to be closer to God.

I didnt want to go here but...

Personally I studied a concept concerning the gospel that I was confused about. I put many hours into study with scriptures and prayer. When the answer came, it came in a vision. I knew it was personal revelation for me because of how it made me feel. It broadened my understanding and gave me a better appreciation for the gospel. I was not specifically petitioning for a dream or vision but it happened the way that it did.

You are the only one in this thread that has mentioned the concept of altered states, drugs, etc. I never felt confused or out of control at any time during this process. You have a way about you of projecting false concepts onto other people and then arguing that because we believe in your false concepts that we are wrong... It is a poor way to make an argument.

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I didnt want to go here but...

Personally I studied a concept concerning the gospel that I was confused about. I put many hours into study with scriptures and prayer. When the answer came, it came in a vision. I knew it was personal revelation for me because of how it made me feel. It broadened my understanding and gave me a better appreciation for the gospel. I was not specifically petitioning for a dream or vision but it happened the way that it did.

You are the only one in this thread that has mentioned the concept of altered states, drugs, etc. I never felt confused or out of control at any time during this process. You have a way about you of projecting false concepts onto other people and then arguing that because we believe in your false concepts that we are wrong... It is a poor way to make an argument.

"Altered states of consciousness" includes "dreams" by what is a commonly accepted definition of sleep and dreaming!!!! So, how am I the only one who has mentioned altered states? This is why my very first comment was one of saying that it is unfortunate that we now have this definition of "dream" and yet it has been traditionally used in the scriptures to signify a vision. The scriptures were not written to accommodate all the future uses and definitions of all the words in them. All scriptures and words from the prophets have to be interpreted and looked at with a general understanding of their context and limitation of language.

How have I argued against what you said in your first paragraph? If anything, what you are saying supports what I have been saying. I have said that the proper way is to do it just as you described happened to you, to put many hours into study with scriptures and prayer and pay attention to how you feel, the conscious awareness of the spirit giving you understanding.

Let me ask you, is REM sleep or any stage of sleep for that matter considered an altered state of consciousness?

The way to tell if one is in an altered state of consciousness is not by asking the person how they feel during the episode as they have an altered state of consciousness. A person with Alzheimer's dementia is often times indifferent to their condition, to them everything is just fine. Often when a person is drunk, they don't feel like they are until after they clear that state of mind. Why? because those are states where the spirit is communicating with the body less not more. In a state of altered consciousness a person's spirit is loosely communicating to the body, the body (the brain) is in major control. When a person with bipolar disease goes into a manic episode and wants to break into the temple to directly speak with God without going through the proper steps is that the body speaking or their spirit? Likewise, in a dream, meaning REM stage of sleep, is that the body or the spirit speaking? If it is the spirit then every time the teenager has a wet dream, he should repent for having such thoughts, right? Or if a person dreams about killing their boss, they should repent for having such a thought, right?

We say "no" to having to repent to those thoughts in those types of dreams because we realize that that is not what is in the desire of their heart. The brain fabricated those thoughts while in a state of altered consciousness.

Dr. William C. Dement, the father of REM sleep (the one who discovered dreaming sleep in the 60's) and a professor of sleeping and dreaming at Stanford University, describes a dream as "a vivid, complex, hallucinatory experience generally accepted as real by the dreamer." 'Sleep is considered an altered state of consciousness. Most recognize a dream upon awakening as a random fabricated reality but during the dream the dreamer is unaware of its fabrication.' (The Promise of Sleep, By William Dement M.D.)

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"Altered states of consciousness" includes "dreams" by what is a commonly accepted definition of sleep and dreaming!!!! So, how am I the only one who has mentioned altered states? This is why my very first comment was one of saying that it is unfortunate that we now have this definition of "dream" and yet it has been traditionally used in the scriptures to signify a vision. The scriptures were not written to accommodate all the future uses and definitions of all the words in them. All scriptures and words from the prophets have to be interpreted and looked at with a general understanding of their context and limitation of language.

I'm not sure why you are willing to fall onto your sword to defend you position which is contrary to current LDS teachings. We have quoted multiple sources of modern day prophets and lesson manuals which plainly teach that both visions and dreams are ways in which God can communicate with man. You have not quoted a single reference that bolsters your point. Perhaps the gospel definition of a dream is not well defined because the person who receives an inspired dream must find out for himself if what He had was inspired and then understand the interpretation of the dream. I don't really care what non-LDS experts spout about dreams, sleep phases, etc. We are not discussing non-inspired dreams, chanting sessions, drug induced trips, etc... in this tread. It is obvious to me that both inspired dreams and visions can be ways that God communicates to man. For example Lehi had a dream. Nephi had a vision of his father's Dream. Inspired dreams occur when one is asleep. Inspired visions occur when one is awake.

Let me ask you, is REM sleep or any stage of sleep for that matter considered an altered state of consciousness?

Sure, but one could also argue that meditation and prayer is also an altered state of consciousness. Who cares??? It makes no difference. If God is communicating spirit to spirit what does it matter.

The way to tell if one is in an altered state of consciousness is not by asking the person how they feel during the episode as they have an altered state of consciousness. A person with Alzheimer's dementia is often times indifferent to their condition, to them everything is just fine. Often when a person is drunk, they don't feel like they are until after they clear that state of mind. Why? because those are states where the spirit is communicating with the body less not more. In a state of altered consciousness a person's spirit is loosely communicating to the body, the body (the brain) is in major control. When a person with bipolar disease goes into a manic episode and wants to break into the temple to directly speak with God without going through the proper steps is that the body speaking or their spirit? Likewise, in a dream, meaning REM stage of sleep, is that the body or the spirit speaking? If it is the spirit then every time the teenager has a wet dream, he should repent for having such thoughts, right? Or if a person dreams about killing their boss, they should repent for having such a thought, right?

This line of your argument is what I find offensive. Stop trying to compare inspired dreams or visions to diseased states or alcohol and drug induced mind altering 'trips'. I'll grant you that I have had nightmares and strange dreams many times during my life, but none of those were inspired dreams. I have never had an inspired dream personally. But I do believe that they can happen and I would never tell anyone that believed that they received personal revelation through a dream that they were wrong. It is up to the person themselves to understand if a message was given to them from God. There have been many good talks in the latter days to help us understand if a message is from God.

Dr. William C. Dement, the father of REM sleep (the one who discovered dreaming sleep in the 60's) and a professor of sleeping and dreaming at Stanford University, describes a dream as "a vivid, complex, hallucinatory experience generally accepted as real by the dreamer." 'Sleep is considered an altered state of consciousness. Most recognize a dream upon awakening as a random fabricated reality but during the dream the dreamer is unaware of its fabrication.' (The Promise of Sleep, By William Dement M.D.)

So?? William C. Dement's expertise has nothing to do with inspired dreams. He may have many hours studying sleep states and dreams. But he probably has never studied a person having a inspired dream...

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Sure, but one could also argue that meditation and prayer is also an altered state of consciousness. Who cares??? It makes no difference. If God is communicating spirit to spirit what does it matter.

This is what makes the difference; a dream is from the body not the spirit.

If it is a spirit to spirit communication then it is a vision. That is exactly my point.

If spirits sleep then I guess I am wrong.

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This line of your argument is what I find offensive. Stop trying to compare inspired dreams or visions to diseased states or alcohol and drug induced mind altering 'trips'. I'll grant you that I have had nightmares and strange dreams many times during my life, but none of those were inspired dreams. I have never had an inspired dream personally. But I do believe that they can happen and I would never tell anyone that believed that they received personal revelation through a dream that they were wrong. It is up to the person themselves to understand if a message was given to them from God. There have been many good talks in the latter days to help us understand if a message is from God.

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I am perplexed why you are so offended, I am doing just the opposite of what you are saying. I am trying to make a distinction between "inspired dreams" and the dreams that occur in our diseased body as opposed to lumping them all together. Everyone else is okay with lumping them together. You of all people, because this is your bread and butter, should realize that all of our bodies are "diseased". We are fallen creatures. The flesh opposes the spirit. Things that are fleshy detract from the spirit. Many of Paul's epistles point that out over and over again. This is not my lone argument.

Our bodies are corrupted and do corrupted things like fabricating ideas, fill in the blanks and frankly imagine things to be real that are not. The body alone cannot distinguish between that which comes from the flesh versus that which comes from the spirit. But the spirit can distinguish. This is why in a state of altered consciousness one has less ability to know of the spirit. The spirit in this life has to act according to the flesh. So, when the flesh is 'offline' so is the spirit. Of course, when that situation doesn't exist, like when someone is transfigured then we are talking about a different situation. In that setting the body isn't a corrupted, fallen "flesh". Could a person be transfigured while they are asleep? Sure, but then that isn't dreaming.

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This is what makes the difference; a dream is from the body not the spirit.

If it is a spirit to spirit communication then it is a vision. That is exactly my point.

No, your point is that God does not inspire dreams. Or are you changing your stance?

Revelation comes from God. It matters not if it comes while one is awake or asleep.

I also don't understand why you keep trying to use modern science to explain what dreams are. We (scientist, learned men) have not figured out what dreams are yet. They are still a big mystery. Heck we hardly understand the brain at all. The brain is the least understood organ in the human body. We have made artificial hearts, lungs, kidneys, etc... In reality, we have no idea about how the brain works. I have worked with and scrubbed with many neurosurgeons. We don't know how to repair brain tissue. The best we can do at this point is cut out parts of the brain and hope for the best.

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I am perplexed why you are so offended, I am doing just the opposite of what you are saying. I am trying to make a distinction between "inspired dreams" and the dreams that occur in our diseased body as opposed to lumping them all together. Everyone else is okay with lumping them together. You of all people, because this is your bread and butter, should realize that all of our bodies are "diseased". We are fallen creatures. The flesh opposes the spirit. Things that are fleshy detract from the spirit. Many of Paul's epistles point that out over and over again. This is not my lone argument.

Our bodies are corrupted and do corrupted things like fabricating ideas, fill in the blanks and frankly imagine things to be real that are not. The body alone cannot distinguish between that which comes from the flesh versus that which comes from the spirit. But the spirit can distinguish. This is why in a state of altered consciousness one has less ability to know of the spirit. The spirit in this life has to act according to the flesh. So, when the flesh is 'offline' so is the spirit. Of course, when that situation doesn't exist, like when someone is transfigured then we are talking about a different situation. In that setting the body isn't a corrupted, fallen "flesh". Could a person be transfigured while they are asleep? Sure, but then that isn't dreaming.

We are not all diseased. Where does this stuff come from? Our bodies are gifts from God, and they are amazing. They can break down and become diseased sure, but usually we are healthy. Granted the natural man denies the spirit. But man can accept God and learn to embrace the spirit. With practice and righteousness it can become easier for man to understand revelation. We are not all lost souls wandering around in confusion. We can distinguish light from darkness.

You and I don't understand how the spirit, mind, and body are connected. I have no idea if spirits sleep. We don't know if resurrected bodies sleep. We know that Jesus Christ was able to eat after the resurrection...

You have no idea how much the spirit is in control of the body, and mind. We do know that when the spirit is separated from the body that a living soul dies.

For all we know the mind could actuality be an organ that connects our body to our spirit. When you die and your brain turns to dust, what happens to your memories? Are they gone never to be retrieved? Or are your memories actually stored in your spirit and interpreted by your brain.

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No, your point is that God does not inspire dreams. Or are you changing your stance?

Revelation comes from God. It matters not if it comes while one is awake or asleep.

I also don't understand why you keep trying to use modern science to explain what dreams are. We (scientist, learned men) have not figured out what dreams are yet. They are still a big mystery. Heck we hardly understand the brain at all. The brain is the least understood organ in the human body. We have made artificial hearts, lungs, kidneys, etc... In reality, we have no idea about how the brain works. I have worked with and scrubbed with many neurosurgeons. We don't know how to repair brain tissue. The best we can do at this point is cut out parts of the brain and hope for the best.

Haha, neurologists know more about the brain than neurosurgeons, in my opinion.

Revelation is revelation, I am not arguing that point. I was trying to distinguish a flaw in our language, in that the word "dream" in the scriptures is used often for an inspired dream or vision whereas in common vernacular the word "dream" means what happens in REM sleep. You and I and most people on this forum know the difference but the casual reader may not. And even as the member starts to use the term over and over again the definitions get blurred because we don't make an attempt to separate the two.

I am not trying to explain what dreams are necessarily so much as the definition of "dream" in how it is used commonly which is the description of the fabricated storyline sometimes remembered that comes from REM sleep. Yes there is a lot to learn but the circuitry involved is fairly well mapped out.

The whole idea of understanding better what is spiritual verses carnal is very important to our religion. Resistance to that is not a positive thing. Our ability to discern the two is vital. One victory for Satan is when we say there is no difference or why care about the difference, all is well, all is good, who cares!

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We are not all diseased. Where does this stuff come from? Our bodies are gifts from God, and they are amazing. They can break down and become diseased sure, but usually we are healthy. Granted the natural man denies the spirit. But man can accept God and learn to embrace the spirit. With practice and righteousness it can become easier for man to understand revelation. We are not all lost souls wandering around in confusion. We can distinguish light from darkness.

You and I don't understand how the spirit, mind, and body are connected. I have no idea if spirits sleep. We don't know if resurrected bodies sleep. We know that Jesus Christ was able to eat after the resurrection...

You have no idea how much the spirit is in control of the body, and mind. We do know that when the spirit is separated from the body that a living soul dies.

For all we know the mind could actuality be an organ that connects our body to our spirit. When you die and your brain turns to dust, what happens to your memories? Are they gone never to be retrieved? Or are your memories actually stored in your spirit and interpreted by your brain.

It is a matter of by how much we have fallen. If one thinks man has not fallen very far then their view of the greatness of salvation is equally proportioned. I choose to believe that we have fallen very far and thus humble myself in this state and realize that I need a Savior to pull me out of this very fallen, carnal corrupted state. Pride drives people to think that they are not that fallen, that they are similar to the way they were before coming here. I believe the veil has blocked most spiritual influence. I can't give you some exact percentage of how much the spirit is in control but I can tell you it is very difficult to have spiritual influence to the point that if nothing is done natural man (i.e - the body, brain) continues to have it's influence. In fact it takes a good 8 years for the spirit to even have a fighting chance to overcome the body's influence. It is this way for a reason, so we turn to a Savior because we can't win the battle by ourselves.

Our spirit is pure when we enter this life as we all passed the first estate and yet we are still called fallen the moment we are born. How is it possible that we are "fallen" if the spirit is pure? Because the body is corrupted in our dual being existence of both body and spirit. This is a basic concept of our religion in which Paul, David O. Mckay and many others have outlined numerous times. This is not my idea. A 4 year old is in a fallen state while in this mortal existence and yet if she dies before 8 merits the Celestial Kingdom. How is that? because the body that makes it so she is in a fallen state is not her. (I know you know this, I am stating this for everyone reading)

Again, to distinguish or discern what is carnal and what is spiritual is a constant battle. I don't care if we don't know all the details. All we have to know is that there is a difference and we try to distinguish the two all the time. The Holy Spirit helps us distinguish the two influence. To experience the influence of the Holy Spirit requires conscious effort. The story of Joseph Smith is an example of how to invite the Holy Spirit's influence, by study, ponder and prayer (asking) all of which do not take place in an altered state of consciousness. I don't think we have to go hunting for some alternative way to reach answers, like lucid dreaming or other forms of altered states of consciousness in which the spirit is even less influential. Christ told the apostles to not fall asleep and yet they did, why? Because even though their spirit wanted to stay awake and continue to invite the spiritual influence, the spirit is willing but the body is stronger in this mortal state. That is not a source of despair but an opportunity to turn to God. This is why it is set up that way - the carnal influence greater than spiritual, so we humble ourselves and turn to God.

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Haha, neurologists know more about the brain than neurosurgeons, in my opinion.

Revelation is revelation, I am not arguing that point. I was trying to distinguish a flaw in our language, in that the word "dream" in the scriptures is used often for an inspired dream or vision whereas in common vernacular the word "dream" means what happens in REM sleep. You and I and most people on this forum know the difference but the casual reader may not. And even as the member starts to use the term over and over again the definitions get blurred because we don't make an attempt to separate the two.

I am not trying to explain what dreams are necessarily so much as the definition of "dream" in how it is used commonly which is the description of the fabricated storyline sometimes remembered that comes from REM sleep. Yes there is a lot to learn but the circuitry involved is fairly well mapped out.

HaHa, I work with both neurologists and neurosurgeons. Believe me, neurosurgeons that specialize in the brain know much more. Most neurosurgeons do spine work but the brain surgeons know their stuff. Neurologists use drugs to modify neurotransmitters in both central and peripheral disorders.

Do you know how the circuitry of the brain was fairly well mapped out? Basically we watched people who either had brain lesions in specific areas with specific disabilities, or people who had brain trauma to specific areas and their disabilities. Essentially if you cause a lesion in the occipital area one gets blindness. So that part of the brain deals with visual function... Please see

http://faculty.washington.edu/somurray/psych506/readings/lesion-methods.pdf

In my opinion you greatly overestimate our current grasp on the human brain...

I would prefer that when you quote me and address my statements that you would address me directly not the casual reader. You persistence to define dreams is not really making any headway. I am fairly certain that I understand the term dream.

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HaHa, I work with both neurologists and neurosurgeons. Believe me, neurosurgeons that specialize in the brain know much more. Most neurosurgeons do spine work but the brain surgeons know their stuff. Neurologists use drugs to modify neurotransmitters in both central and peripheral disorders.

Do you know how the circuitry of the brain was fairly well mapped out? Basically we watched people who either had brain lesions in specific areas with specific disabilities, or people who had brain trauma to specific areas and their disabilities. Essentially if you cause a lesion in the occipital area one gets blindness. So that part of the brain deals with visual function... Please see

http://faculty.washington.edu/somurray/psych506/readings/lesion-methods.pdf

In my opinion you greatly overestimate our current grasp on the human brain...

I would prefer that when you quote me and address my statements that you would address me directly not the casual reader. You persistence to define dreams is not really making any headway. I am fairly certain that I understand the term dream.

I probably know neurologists better as my husband is one and I have an advanced degree in neuroscience and have been working with both neurologists and neurosurgeons in a University setting for more than 20 years. I have many published studies in the field of neurology and neurosurgery. But, I know that makes no difference to you.

Tell me, what difference does it make if "inspired dreams" turn out to be visions that occur while a person is in between stages of sleeping, they are pulled out of sleep to have a vision in a conscious state and then fall back asleep (so there is no perception that they have left sleep) as opposed to receiving information while unconscious (asleep)? Why is that so important and so offensive to you? I don't get the defensiveness about such an idea. Does it change some ideology of the gospel for you?

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Tell me, what difference does it make if "inspired dreams" turn out to be visions that occur while a person is in between stages of sleeping, they are pulled out of sleep to have a vision in a conscious state and then fall back asleep (so there is no perception that they have left sleep) as opposed to receiving information while unconscious (asleep)? Why is that so important and so offensive to you? I don't get the defensiveness about such an idea. Does it change some ideology of the gospel for you?

As I have already stated, it matters not to me which stage of sleep an inspired dream is given to a man or woman. God does not live by the limits of our current knowledge. I am sure that he does not refer to sleep in 5 levels and probably does not call what we now refer to as Random Eye Movement sleep as REM. His science is infinitely superior to ours. How many sleep studies can you look up that have recorded the instances when inspired dreams have occurred? In all likelihood when inspired dreams happen, they occur through a means that we have yet to discover...

Inspired dreams cannot be interpreted or studied by the scientific method. The beholder of such dreams must find out for himself or herself the validity and interpretation of such revelation.

Likewise when I anoint a head with oil or lay my hands upon a sick saint and invoke a blessing for the sick, I do not think to myself how my knowledge of physiology is going to affect the blessing. Blessings work by other means; authority, worthiness, and faith not to mention the will of the Lord.

What I find offensive is the limits that you put on the Lord and the means by which you argue that worthy saints cannot receive revelation through dreams.

If you want to argue sleep by all means go hang out at a sleep study forum with your neurology associates. But this is LDS Gospel discussion forum.

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As I have already stated, it matters not to me which stage of sleep an inspired dream is given to a man or woman. God does not live by the limits of our current knowledge. I am sure that he does not refer to sleep in 5 levels and probably does not call what we now refer to as Random Eye Movement sleep as REM. His science is infinitely superior to ours. How many sleep studies can you look up that have recorded the instances when inspired dreams have occurred? In all likelihood when inspired dreams happen, they occur through a means that we have yet to discover...

Inspired dreams cannot be interpreted or studied by the scientific method. The beholder of such dreams must find out for himself or herself the validity and interpretation of such revelation.

Likewise when I anoint a head with oil or lay my hands upon a sick saint and invoke a blessing for the sick, I do not think to myself how my knowledge of physiology is going to affect the blessing. Blessings work by other means; authority, worthiness, and faith not to mention the will of the Lord.

What I find offensive is the limits that you put on the Lord and the means by which you argue that worthy saints cannot receive revelation through dreams.

If you want to argue sleep by all means go hang out at a sleep study forum with your neurology associates. But this is LDS Gospel discussion forum.

And like I have explained, I am not talking about what the Lord can or cannot do but how we discern what is done. That is within our power and is in fact our duty and our test.

People try to find God in all sorts of ways. If one doesn't care whether the message comes in the form of a shape the toaster made on a piece of bread versus "inspiration" they get from smoking pot or trying to make themselves more awake during their sleep so they remember their dreams thinking God is communicating with them that way, that is up to them. But it is within our right and duty to talk about it which shouldn't bring any offense. If you are so sensitive about limits then if someone said the Lord pushed their fingers around a Ouija Board, I suppose you would simply say; 'okay that is possible' in respect of not putting limits on the Lord. For me, I would say; "the Lord doesn't communicate that way." I realize I could be wrong. But that is my opinion.

(By the way, REM stands for rapid eye movement.)

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  • 1 month later...

@Seminarysnoozer:

I thought you might find these words from Elder David B. Haight regarding his experience while "unconscious."

During those days of unconsciousness I was given, by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, a more perfect knowledge of His mission. I was also given a more complete understanding of what it means to exercise, in His name, the authority to unlock the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven for the salvation of all who are faithful. My soul was taught over and over again the events of the betrayal, the mock trial, the scourging of the flesh of even one of the Godhead. I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display.

Read the whole scenario beginning with, "The evening of my health crisis..."

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@Seminarysnoozer:

I thought you might find these words from Elder David B. Haight regarding his experience while "unconscious."

Read the whole scenario beginning with, "The evening of my health crisis..."

Yes, thanks for supporting my argument. He states; "I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things." This was clearly a vision. It was not a dream or near death experience but a vision by the Holy Spirit. The opening scripture of the talk is D&C 50 which talks about receiving instruction through the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Truth and not by some other way, like through the functions of the body.

A spirit to spirit communication is not dreaming nor is it a near death experience.

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Yes, thanks for supporting my argument. He states; "I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things." This was clearly a vision. It was not a dream or near death experience but a vision by the Holy Spirit. The opening scripture of the talk is D&C 50 which talks about receiving instruction through the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Truth and not by some other way, like through the functions of the body.

A spirit to spirit communication is not dreaming nor is it a near death experience.

Supporting your argument? I never said it was a dream, and clearly it was a vision. You mention in previous post that God does not work through our unconscious mind.

However, we find through Elder Haight, "During those days of unconsciousness I was given..."

Thus I wasn't supporting your argument in the least.

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God works through both our conscious and our subconscious minds -- I know that much. But unconscious? Hmm... I've had visionary dreams, but couldn't really reflect on it until I was conscious. But my subconscious might be able to while I'm still unconscious... There's a lot we don't know about how all that works.

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There's a lot we don't know about how all that works.

I completely agree HiJolly with this statement.

Thus, we can only seek to understand what Elder Haight meant by saying, "During those days of unconsciousness I was given..."

His reference is toward his unconscious state of mind. I would prefer to believe he knew what state his mind was in when the Lord was communicating.

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I would prefer to believe he knew what state his mind was in when the Lord was communicating.

How does one know they are unconscious at the moment they are unconscious?

Sure, later during the return of consciousness one can say there was a lapse of time and they realize that there is time unaccounted for and so they must have been unconscious. This is why I was trying to explain earlier that a "dream" (the typical REM dream) is comprised of memories that remain in the active memory upon awakening that are put together at the point of wakefulness into a story like presentation. The way we know this is by watching what state of sleep a person is in and if they go through episodes of REM sleep without waking, they go right into another state of sleep and wake up out of stage 2, 3 or 4 sleep then they don't recall any dreaming. People say things like, I was dreaming all night but what happened there is that their sleep was really light and they woke up momentarily out of REM enough to maintain memory of the dreaming. The point is that even "dreams" (of the REM type) are really functions of wakefulness that occur at the moment of waking from the dreaming state that are not there if a person remains in sleep and awakens out of another stage of sleep.

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How does one know they are unconscious at the moment they are unconscious?

Sure, later during the return of consciousness one can say there was a lapse of time and they realize that there is time unaccounted for and so they must have been unconscious. This is why I was trying to explain earlier that a "dream" (the typical REM dream) is comprised of memories that remain in the active memory upon awakening that are put together at the point of wakefulness into a story like presentation. The way we know this is by watching what state of sleep a person is in and if they go through episodes of REM sleep without waking, they go right into another state of sleep and wake up out of stage 2, 3 or 4 sleep then they don't recall any dreaming. People say things like, I was dreaming all night but what happened there is that their sleep was really light and they woke up momentarily out of REM enough to maintain memory of the dreaming. The point is that even "dreams" (of the REM type) are really functions of wakefulness that occur at the moment of waking from the dreaming state that are not there if a person remains in sleep and awakens out of another stage of sleep.

LOL... Here's a "bake your noodle" thing.

Being a classic ADHD insomniac ... I've had several sleep studies done. Well, technically I signed up for 1, then agreed to the rest. Whoops. No pun intended.

Here are the synopsis of my results:

- Most of the time I am not asleep. I am passed out. No cycling, and no REM until I've "been woken up". At whi h point my brain does "fast" REM for about an hour. Then I TRULY wake up.

- Sometimes I am in REM with no cycling for 10-11 out of 12hours, until I am woken up, at which point I shuffle through various Greek letters very quickly, for about 1 hour.

- FOR BOTH ... I can be woken up at any point until the "last hour" and be instantaneously awake/alert. But in my rapid cycling hour, Im absolutely dead to the world. I can talk, move, etc... But Im very much sleepwalking & not actually cognizant of anything.

________

There was some talk about making it an actual study (ADHD sleep patterns)... Since they'd come across this a couple times in the past.., to see if there's a causal link... But I have no idea if they actually did.

ANYHOW... When some people say they've been dreaming all night... They may be telling the straight truth! :D

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LOL... Here's a "bake your noodle" thing.

Being a classic ADHD insomniac ... I've had several sleep studies done. Well, technically I signed up for 1, then agreed to the rest. Whoops. No pun intended.

Here are the synopsis of my results:

- Most of the time I am not asleep. I am passed out. No cycling, and no REM until I've "been woken up". At whi h point my brain does "fast" REM for about an hour. Then I TRULY wake up.

- Sometimes I am in REM with no cycling for 10-11 out of 12hours, until I am woken up, at which point I shuffle through various Greek letters very quickly, for about 1 hour.

- FOR BOTH ... I can be woken up at any point until the "last hour" and be instantaneously awake/alert. But in my rapid cycling hour, Im absolutely dead to the world. I can talk, move, etc... But Im very much sleepwalking & not actually cognizant of anything.

________

There was some talk about making it an actual study (ADHD sleep patterns)... Since they'd come across this a couple times in the past.., to see if there's a causal link... But I have no idea if they actually did.

ANYHOW... When some people say they've been dreaming all night... They may be telling the straight truth! :D

Thats impressive, they did a study for 12 hours. Sounds like you have very light sleep. Common things being common, the usual cause is poor sleep hygiene like not turning off the lights 12 hours before they come on at the same time every day. But this is not a medical forum so I will leave it at that.

When a person is sleep deprived, the easiest way to self stimulate is to force the topic to change rapidly. This is why in the sunbeam class you don't want to stay on any one topic for more than 2 to 3 minutes. If the topic stayed the same for more than a few minutes they would quickly lose attention. Sleep deprivation causes the same issue, a lack of ability to stay on one topic for more than a few minutes.

... not sure how all of that relates to what we were talking about.

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Actually, it was a 3 week long study 24/7. Gotta love RobotSuits (what we called the plethora of wires). Military. It only relates in the section I was quoting... About how people say they spend all night dreaming, but don't & are actually XY long through dreaming & not. That may be generally true, but not true for everyone, or for everyone all the time.

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Actually, it was a 3 week long study 24/7. Gotta love RobotSuits (what we called the plethora of wires). Military. It only relates in the section I was quoting... About how people say they spend all night dreaming, but don't & are actually XY long through dreaming & not. That may be generally true, but not true for everyone, or for everyone all the time.

Yeah we should spend only 20% of sleep in REM.

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I believe in a God, a creator-something that I cannot comprehend. But it never felt natural to pray to such a being, and I have not really prayed in a great many years.

When I was a neo-pagan I "gave thanks" to the sun and moon and earth, for sustaining the life of the world.

I am not an athiest, never have been.

Do I believe Jesus existed, yes, do I believe he was the Son of God, I don't know.

I do know even if I became a Mormon or a Baptist or anything, I'd still be a "loner" (I am not a social butterfly by any means and can never concentrate properly in a great big room of people).

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