Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It would make God evil because it would require God to set up Lucifer for an automatic failure. God didnt say "alright, now its time to create perdition". God doesnt create any of his works for the purpose of evil. After He creates them they are on their own to choose to obey or disobey. 

To believe that God would knowingly create and raise Satan for failure beforehand doesnt make any sense.

Just so I understand - It is your belief that G-d never had a clue that Lucifer would choose badly until it was too late?  That Lucifer's bad choices were 100% a surprise to G-d and that G-d only helped Lucifer to advance spiritually in the pre-existence because he mistakenly believed Lucifer would be a Celestial Saint?  You believe that poor unsuspecting G-d never had a clue what was going to happen - but that he made a rather quick and brilliant recovery to cover his mistake?

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

It would make God evil because it would require God to set up Lucifer for an automatic failure. God didnt say "alright, now its time to create perdition". God doesnt create any of his works for the purpose of evil. After He creates them they are on their own to choose to obey or disobey. 

To believe that God would knowingly create and raise Satan for failure beforehand doesnt make any sense.

 

Okay, we're going to take this slow so we don't go into that debate spiral again like we did before.

God doesn't create anything for the purpose of evil.  Yes.  Now, tell me, why did God create the earth where people like my father end up painfully spending 3 years dying of cancer?  Are you saying God did not know when He created the Earth that people would painfully die of cancer?  Or is it your opinion that painfully dying of cancer is a good thing?  If so, then why do you believe so?

Edited March 6, 2017 by anatess2

[mordorbund]

 

On 3/4/2017 at 1:28 AM, Rob Osborn said:

On 3/3/2017 at 3:29 PM, mordorbund said:

Assuming that the cardinality doesn't change is an intuitive assumption but not a logical one. Logic has rules and rigors that you haven't applied yet. We can discuss ways to make this more intuitive, but before we do I want to make sure that we're using the same terminology. What is a "set"? What can be included in a set and what, of necessity, must be excluded?

My point was to show the absolute absurdity of treating a language concept (infinity) as a number. 

The problem with infinity in numbers is that one is introducing a concept of never ending, always growing, without limit, etc, and it isnt really a number. Properly defined, infinity in numbers is a way of saying that there is no limit to the counting sequence process. So, when one says one infinity is bigger than another is counter intuitive because infinity isnt a number its merely language that is telling us it never stops counting and has no finite or knowable limit. Saying one infinity is bigger than another is the greatest admittance of absurdity that can possibly exist.

I don't think anyone here has treated infinity as a number. That it has the property of relative size useful in relation to other infinity does not mean that it is treated as a number. You've shown (via traditional addition and subtraction) that traditional operations do not work on it in the same manner. That actually conforms to the set theory of infinite sets.

Before attempting to bridge the divide, I'll ask again for you to define "set" for me so I can understand what you're working with. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Just so I understand - It is your belief that G-d never had a clue that Lucifer would choose badly until it was too late?  That Lucifer's bad choices were 100% a surprise to G-d and that G-d only helped Lucifer to advance spiritually in the pre-existence because he mistakenly believed Lucifer would be a Celestial Saint?  You believe that poor unsuspecting G-d never had a clue what was going to happen - but that he made a rather quick and brilliant recovery to cover his mistake?

 

The Traveler

No. That is not what I am saying at all. When God first created Lucifer he was good. But after time Lucifer changed, became evil. 

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

No. That is not what I am saying at all. When God first created Lucifer he was good. But after time Lucifer changed, became evil. 

Right.  So you're saying that God did not know that Lucifer would become evil.  That is what @Traveler just said.  "It is your belief that G-d never had a clue that Lucifer would choose badly until it was too late?  That Lucifer's bad choices were 100% a surprise to G-d."

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

 

I don't think anyone here has treated infinity as a number. That it has the property of relative size useful in relation to other infinity does not mean that it is treated as a number. You've shown (via traditional addition and subtraction) that traditional operations do not work on it in the same manner. That actually conforms to the set theory of infinite sets.

Before attempting to bridge the divide, I'll ask again for you to define "set" for me so I can understand what you're working with. 

As I understand, a set in math is all the numbers in defined group such as if one was to put 3,5,&7 together that would be a set.  An "infinite" set makes no sense because there is no "all" in something that is without end. As for the natural numbers, it is merely a mathematical concept that enables us to add up groups of ten and mark and repeat over and over to count things. Because its a tool for addition it in and of itself is not a set.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Right.  So you're saying that God did not know that Lucifer would become evil.  That is what @Traveler just said.  "It is your belief that G-d never had a clue that Lucifer would choose badly until it was too late?  That Lucifer's bad choices were 100% a surprise to G-d."

No, that is not what I am saying. God didnt know when he first created him how he would turn out. But, after time had passed and Lucifer began to exercise his agency then it became aware to God who he would become.

[Jane_Doe]

Ummm... pardon me: but I don't think anyone here would suggest that we create our children like they are some programmed robot.  Why would we suggest the same thing of God?

[Traveler]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, that is not what I am saying. God didnt know when he first created him how he would turn out. But, after time had passed and Lucifer began to exercise his agency then it became aware to God who he would become.

Then you admit that G-d, without question, made a mistake?   Because he allowed Lucifer to have agency without knowing that it would turn out badly.  In esence Satan is the fault of G-d - because it was G-d that did not know better???  That G-d started something without any clue it would turn out bad?????  That G-d really did not think this through and thus really did not know what "HE" was doing?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, Traveler said:

Then you admit that G-d, without question, made a mistake?   Because he allowed Lucifer to have agency without knowing that it would turn out badly.  In esence Satan is the fault of G-d - because it was G-d that did not know better???  That G-d started something without any clue it would turn out bad?????  That G-d really did not think this through and thus really did not know what "HE" was doing?

 

The Traveler

I dont think we understand each other.

[Rob Osborn]

God created all of us under the same rules and principles in hopes that all would become like him. But, it is up to each one of us to choose if we want that or not. God does his part to give us the best possible opportunity to choose him but it still comes down to our own choice if we want that or not. Its that ultimate decision that God does not know from the beginning.

[Traveler]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

I dont think we understand each other.

 

I am 100% sure that is the case.  I am very sure that G-d does not start or even plan anything without knowing the outcome.  It is exactly why I have faith in his "Plan of Salvation" - because I am sure he, without question, knows 100% what the outcome will be.  Where I personally disagree with many religious thinkers - I believe that we knew what G-d knew before we made our decision to become mortal.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

God created all of us under the same rules and principles in hopes that all would become like him. But, it is up to each one of us to choose if we want that or not. God does his part to give us the best possible opportunity to choose him but it still comes down to our own choice if we want that or not. Its that ultimate decision that God does not know from the beginning.

The problem is - how could we make a choice without knowing in advance what the outcome would be???  If we do not know the outcome - the choice is like choosing door number 1, 2 or 3 without knowing what is behind the door.  It is not a choice it is a guess.  That is not justice. 

The outcome is the choice.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I am 100% sure that is the case.  I am very sure that G-d does not start or even plan anything without knowing the outcome.  It is exactly why I have faith in his "Plan of Salvation" - because I am sure he, without question, knows 100% what the outcome will be.  Where I personally disagree with many religious thinkers - I believe that we knew what G-d knew before we made our decision to become mortal.

 

The Traveler

So, you believe that before Lucifer was created that God would plan and create a spirit child, name him Lucifer, raise him up to become a good spirit, then become prideful, fall and become perdition?

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

The problem is - how could we make a choice without knowing in advance what the outcome would be???  If we do not know the outcome - the choice is like choosing door number 1, 2 or 3 without knowing what is behind the door.  It is not a choice it is a guess.  That is not justice. 

The outcome is the choice.

 

The Traveler

God told us what our choices would lead to. Some chose to be obedient and some chose to be disobedient.

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

God created all of us under the same rules and principles in hopes that all would become like him. But, it is up to each one of us to choose if we want that or not. God does his part to give us the best possible opportunity to choose him but it still comes down to our own choice if we want that or not. Its that ultimate decision that God does not know from the beginning.

I agree 100% with everything except for the last sentence.  The last sentence to me is not necessary. 

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, anatess2 said:

I agree 100% with everything except for the last sentence.  The last sentence to me is not necessary. 

The last sentence is what makes the point.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The last sentence is what makes the point.

Yes.  That's why we disagree.  Because for me, that point is not necessary.  Whether God knows the final decision or God doesn't know that final decision, it doesn't take away from God.  Whereas, you believe that unless they agree with you, then God must be evil.  It's that unnecessary conclusion that I don't agree with.  I'm ambivalent either way on whether God knows or doesn't know that Lucifer would be Satan when he gave him a spirit body.

Edited March 6, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes.  That's why we disagree.  Because for me, that point is not necessary.  Whether God knows the final decision or God doesn't know that final decision, it doesn't take away from God.  Whereas, you believe that unless they agree with you, then God must be evil.  It's that unnecessary conclusion that I don't agree with.  I'm ambivalent either way on whether God knows or doesn't know that Lucifer would be Satan when he gave him a spirit body.

Thats fine we disagree. My belief that God doesnt, nor can,  know "everything" doesnt take away from the objective of wanting to become like him. I understand that others believe he must know literally "everything" and even still, others who are unsure what he does or doesnt know. The main point I believe, and I think we both agree, is that our free will is in no way predetermined.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

As I understand, a set in math is all the numbers in defined group such as if one was to put 3,5,&7 together that would be a set.  An "infinite" set makes no sense because there is no "all" in something that is without end.

Must a set, by definition, be bounded?

Quote

As for the natural numbers, it is merely a mathematical concept that enables us to add up groups of ten and mark and repeat over and over to count things. Because its a tool for addition it in and of itself is not a set.

I don't think that's natural numbers. I think that's just the base 10 notation.

[Colirio]

Even prophets, as mere mortals, have been able to see the future. In fact, they are prophets, SEERS, and revelators. 

 

Some of the things they have seen were certain individuals and groups sinning and others performing righteous acts. 

 

It stands to reason that if this power can be given to mortals, by God, then God has greater access to what will happen than we might realize.

 

These aren't educated guesses or even decisions based on experience. God has a sure knowledge of what will happen because all things past, present, and future are before him. 

 

Here is a page that has several excellent quotes from an apostle of the Lord that describes the power better than I can.

 

https://math.byu.edu/~grant/avoc/religion/nam.txt

[Rob Osborn]

46 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Must a set, by definition, be bounded?

I don't think that's natural numbers. I think that's just the base 10 notation.

The natural counting numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6...) is just the symbol of base 10 notation. Its just the symbol we give to it to know where we are in the count of definable items.

Yes, a set must be bounded, otherwise it isnt a set. This is where set theory, in trying to deal with the concept of infinity, fails. A set includes "all" definable parts of a group. Infinity isnt a number nor a collection of sets of finite numbers. Infinity is mere language that states something is never complete- specifically, there is no "all" in infinity.

[Traveler]

35 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thats fine we disagree. My belief that God doesnt, nor can,  know "everything" doesnt take away from the objective of wanting to become like him. I understand that others believe he must know literally "everything" and even still, others who are unsure what he does or doesnt know. The main point I believe, and I think we both agree, is that our free will is in no way predetermined.

Where I see and think differently is that if indeed something is our will – it will not change and cannot change.  If our will was to change – which is the real or true will?  Unless something outside of us and our will changes it.  Free will does not mean not predetermined or not previously known – it means that the we, as an individual, determine by our will and by ourselves and not by any outside force or some other will.  I do not see that the possibility that we are anyone else knowing and understanding our will – changes it.   It cannot nor it is not our will if something other than our will changes it.

I do not believe that knowledge (regardless of who has the knowledge) changes our will (even if it is knowledge of our will by us, G-d or anything or anybody else) – in fact I believe knowledge is necessary and must be element of our will to be expressed or to come about as our will.  Thus if we lack knowledge then we are not exercising our will or agency but are at the mercy of whatever force withholds whatever knowledge from us.  Which is the means by which I believe Satan plotted to enslave those; that by their will, do not and will not follow him.  G-d being the opposite – that only through knowledge and the exercise of will (which demands knowledge) would follow him – this is the meaning of G-d separating light from darkness or what is meant by the light shining in the darkness but the darkness comprehends it not.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Colirio said:

Even prophets, as mere mortals, have been able to see the future. In fact, they are prophets, SEERS, and revelators. 

 

Some of the things they have seen were certain individuals and groups sinning and others performing righteous acts. 

 

It stands to reason that if this power can be given to mortals, by God, then God has greater access to what will happen than we might realize.

 

These aren't educated guesses or even decisions based on experience. God has a sure knowledge of what will happen because all things past, present, and future are before him. 

 

Here is a page that has several excellent quotes from an apostle of the Lord that describes the power better than I can.

 

https://math.byu.edu/~grant/avoc/religion/nam.txt

But God cannot know everything. Why do the scriptures give two way options a lot of times when speaking of future events?

[Blackmarch]

On February 28, 2017 at 11:17 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Being omniscient to me means knowing all that is possible to be known. Our futures are not known, not by us, by God, nor anyone. God may have a great knowledge about what may happen to each of us but it is definitely not set in stone. I believe in a God that counsels, uses strategy, wisdom, choices, etc, to make continual adjustments to bring to pass his will. I do not believe in a God that already knows every detail of the future because it would make God evil. Why? Because God would knowingly create certain individuals doomed eternally to perdition, their fate already sealed before they were ever created. Thus, God would have to knowingly create, raise and bring to pass those who are to be eternally damned. And then, on the other end of that spectrum, God would knowingly create, raise and bring to pass those destined for eternal life. For our part, under this paradigm, we would already be sealed one way or the other. Lets say I was destined for hell according to Gods perfect knowledge but at this time I was trying to get closer to God and live his commandments. Praying to God, having him answer, would all be part of my eternal path to damnation, and God woukd be a major part of that!

Thus, one can see why its paramount why God can only know all that is possible to be known but as for the exact future, no one, including God, knows for sure. 

Thats a lot of assumption on of a lot of variables.  According to this logic god would be evil for creating anyone with ability to make choices, no matter how much foresight he has or has not.