Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

There is a lot of speculation in the church over this issue. I dont think there is actually much revealed truth at all. The doctrines we do have are mostly bits and pieces coupled with a lot of speculation. In the end we are told that all of the celestial will be baptised. So how it all plays out may be speculation but at least we know all the celestial in the end will all have to be baptised.

 

This is what Folk Prophet is referring to, and it is doctrine

Moroni 8

Quote

Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

*sigh* I know I said I was done...but seriously...you're just saying stuff.

Where? Where does it say this thing you claim? Give me a source. "All the celestial in the end will all have to be baptised".

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;......

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical. (D&C 76:50-52, 69-70)

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;......

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical. (D&C 76:50-52, 69-70)

I don't see the word "all" in there.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't see the word "all" in there.

Verses 50-70 describe all the celestial.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Verses 50-70 describe all the celestial.

It's easy to just say stuff, isn't it?

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The above is my personal opinion, BACKED UP DIRECTLY by things and blessings given to me by individuals.  It specified I made a choice, and the ONLY reason I decided to live a life is to receive that blessing of eternal marriage.

There are many who will have celestial bodies but not be in an eternal marriage.  As per Joseph Fielding Smith, there may be those in the Celestial Kingdom who do not even have a Celestial body!  The items quoted by McKonkie regarding that particular volume of the doctrines of Salvation discuss the items prior to his talk never state children are married in the Celestial Kingdom.  It discusses what he goes over before, but the marriage thing is particular to his talk there.  He has no sources from revelations and prophets in that regards.

This is located in Chapter 3 of Doctrines of Salvation, however the questions regarding who is and who isn't married in the Celestial Kingdom is found in Chapter 4 of Doctrines of Salvation which Mckonkie leaves blank.  It is there that we find out about the  hows and whys of the exaltation of the family unit and other such items.

I have a great respect for McKonkie, as also his son (Joseph McKonkie), and he states in this talk that children do get married in the Celestial Kingdom.  He has no sources or reference that actually talk about that subject, it is his own personal injection in that article.

McKonkie ALSO stated previously that Blacks would never have the priesthood.

Unless it is stated as doctrine or in that regards, it is NOT doctrine.

That said, I am making it clear that this IS my opinion.  It is NOT doctrine (anymore than one claiming children are also attain celestial marriage) as these items are ONLY found in external sources (for example, the Doctrines of Salvation) which are the thoughts and extrapolations of apostles, prophets and general authorities.  There is NO doctrine in this regards other than the things Joseph originally revealed and which Joseph F Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith extrapolated upon, none of which reveal that children are married in the Celestial Kingdom.  Joseph Smith original taught that children who die will remain that same age and size for eternity and rule on thrones.  That changed in later teachings that their parents will have the opportunity to raise them in the eternities.  More or less than this is basically our opinions.

I think it all shows proof that our doctrine and opinions by prophets over the years regarding children is almost entirely speculation. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's easy to just say stuff, isn't it?

Well, I dont see where it says anything else in those verses. If verses 50-70 describe what requirements need to be met then who can refute?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think it all shows proof that our doctrine and opinions by prophets over the years regarding children is almost entirely speculation. 

With this I somewhat agree. Except and until you apply the idea to things that have been consistently taught and are actually in the scriptures -- a la children do not need baptism. Beyond that, we really don't know. We don't know about marriage and other ordinances. We only know about baptism because it has been specifically revealed very clearly and repeatedly and is not speculative. Children who die before 8 will not need baptism. There is no speculation therein.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

With this I somewhat agree. Except and until you apply the idea to things that have been consistently taught and are actually in the scriptures -- a la children do not need baptism. Beyond that, we really don't know. We don't know about marriage and other ordinances. We only know about baptism because it has been specifically revealed very clearly and repeatedly and is not speculative. Children who die before 8 will not need baptism. There is no speculation therein.

To be saved from hell children do not need baptism. However, in the mllennium they will be raised up to adulthood and they must partake of ordinances of salvation.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I dont see where it says anything else in those verses. If verses 50-70 describe what requirements need to be met then who can refute?

You may note it doesn't say anything specifically about Celestial Marriage in those verses.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

To be saved from hell children do not need baptism. However, in the mllennium they will be raised up to adulthood and they must partake of ordinances of salvation.

You're repeating yourself. Repetition doesn't make things true either.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You're repeating yourself. Repetition doesn't make things true either.

You telling me Im wrong doesnt make it false either.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

You telling me Im wrong doesnt make it false either.

No. But Mormon telling you you're wrong does.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No. But Mormon telling you you're wrong does.

Mormon didnt tell me that.

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You may note it doesn't say anything specifically about Celestial Marriage in those verses.

Marriage isnt a requirement of the Celestial kingdom.

[Guest]

 

That's all I have to contribute to this thread. But I think it's as valuable a contribution as pretend doctrine.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Eowyn

[Traveler]

 

I will begin by saying that I do not have all the answers – in fact I can honestly say I have more questions than answers.  With this caveat, I would speak a little to covenants – I had thought to start another thread about covenants and perhaps most of my comments should be in that thread rather than here – but in light of certain discussions this particular post may have more relevance here.

First, I will begin with the statement that this life is an extension of what we LDS know of as the pre-existence.  Though scriptures do not say exactly so – I have come to understand that all things in this mortal life have reference to something that was before.  For those that want some scripture reference see Ecclesiastes 1:9-10.  This scripture may not say exactly what some want and even demand that G-d so say in scripture before they will believe (or even consider a something as possible with G-d).

I believe it to be doctrine – that what we face in this life had foundation in the pre-existence.   Some may demand that this is not really doctrine and that there is no way that on July 13th 2006 that it could have been know that we would shake 267 grains of pepper on our breakfast eggs rather than 266 or any other number.  For me the question is absurd but I am willing to consider the logic and reasoning that brought someone to ask such a question.  However, if they demand scriptures and refuse to consider something without scripture or some recorded revelation; then I would expect that they back up their opinions with scripture or some recorded revelation.  When they demand of others more than themselves – I believe I understand the problem.  Now, the question for me is how long do I play along and challenge them?

I personally do not know all that G-d could possibly know.  He has not found it necessary to tell me.  Likewise, I do not know if there is anything – even down to the gains of pepper we have on our breakfast eggs – that G-d does not know.  I have inquired after such things and have come to believe that such inquire is absurd and that I am missing the point of covenants, commandments and personal standards.  Which is to first make sure that I am “reconciled” before G-d in any matter.  I will pass one thing of wisdom I have learned through personal revelation – That is, that if when we are discussing a matter with anyone that should we become angry, upset or in any way turned from having compassion with those that we discuss – then we are not reconciled before G-d in the matter and that we are in need of repentance.  This I know because I have so been instructed by the spirit.  And I am sure anyone that is also instructed by the spirit; concerning knowing how to discuss what G-d would have us communicate to others – will come to the same conclusion.   In short it is not how we affect others but how we affect ourselves.

 

The Traveler

[Eydis]

20 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Marriage isnt a requirement of the Celestial kingdom.

Is it a requirement to be like God?  Will there be anyone in the Celestial Kingdom who does not have all that God has?

Just like you quoted D&C 76; " 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. "

If they are not married then how can they have "all" as in 'all things are theirs'?

[Traveler]

37 minutes ago, Eydis said:

Is it a requirement to be like God?  Will there be anyone in the Celestial Kingdom who does not have all that God has?

Just like you quoted D&C 76; " 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. "

If they are not married then how can they have "all" as in 'all things are theirs'?

 

The covenant necessary for the Celestial kingdom and those that abide that Kingdom is called “The New and Everlasting Covenant”.  Anciently Isaiah referenced this covenant as the “Everlasting Covenant” without the “new and” as part of the title.  A note in passing – Isaiah addresses the “breaking” of the everlasting covenant as one of the three elements or signs of the “Apostasy” that will precede the “Last Days” which is (according to my understanding) why it is now called “The New and Everlasting Covenant”.

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Eydis said:

Is it a requirement to be like God?  Will there be anyone in the Celestial Kingdom who does not have all that God has?

Just like you quoted D&C 76; " 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. "

If they are not married then how can they have "all" as in 'all things are theirs'?

There is a difference between being in the Celestial Kingdom and Exaltation.  As per the Doctrine and Covenants, the Celestial Kingdom itself is subdivided into three degrees or divisions.   It is only the Highest that attain Exaltation.

Spoken of in this, though not strictly LDS doctrine, is the facet of these three degrees, spoken of by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young bring in the direct ideas of the second degree in the Celestial Kingdom, those who are not married for all eternity or have the blessings of being sealed to a spouse in eternal marriage in this life.  There is story about one individual who desired to only be a servant in the celestial Kingdom, but Joseph would not have any of that and had them sealed.  Those who do not have the bonds of sealings in eternal marriage will receive the thrones, powers, and abilities of the Lord, but as they do not have the ability to have eternal offspring, will instead be the servants of those worthy of the higher degree.  This then is the second degree in the Celestial Kingdom as per Joseph and later Brigham Young.

Joseph F. Smith (who also had the revelation regarding the Spirit World in a similar record, which found it's way to the Doctrine and Covenants, though the thoughts on the Celestial Kingdom did not) and later Joseph Fielding Smith actually went onto the third category of those dwelling in the Celestial Kingdom.  Those who are sealed in the eternal marriage and attain exaltation may also bring their children there, even if those children do not merit the celestial kingdom.  Those children may merit the lower kingdoms, but due to the sealing power, they are brought up to be with their parents in the Celestial Kingdom though they will have to repent of their sins in this life or the next, and possibly even pay the price of that sin.  It is implied though in the Celestial Kingdom, they do not have the bodies of those in the higher degrees, but those which they earned from what they chose in this life.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

There is a difference between being in the Celestial Kingdom and Exaltation.  As per the Doctrine and Covenants, the Celestial Kingdom itself is subdivided into three degrees or divisions.   It is only the Highest that attain Exaltation.

Spoken of in this, though not strictly LDS doctrine, is the facet of these three degrees, spoken of by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young bring in the direct ideas of the second degree in the Celestial Kingdom, those who are not married for all eternity or have the blessings of being sealed to a spouse in eternal marriage in this life.  There is story about one individual who desired to only be a servant in the celestial Kingdom, but Joseph would not have any of that and had them sealed.  Those who do not have the bonds of sealings in eternal marriage will receive the thrones, powers, and abilities of the Lord, but as they do not have the ability to have eternal offspring, will instead be the servants of those worthy of the higher degree.  This then is the second degree in the Celestial Kingdom as per Joseph and later Brigham Young.

Joseph F. Smith (who also had the revelation regarding the Spirit World in a similar record, which found it's way to the Doctrine and Covenants, though the thoughts on the Celestial Kingdom did not) and later Joseph Fielding Smith actually went onto the third category of those dwelling in the Celestial Kingdom.  Those who are sealed in the eternal marriage and attain exaltation may also bring their children there, even if those children do not merit the celestial kingdom.  Those children may merit the lower kingdoms, but due to the sealing power, they are brought up to be with their parents in the Celestial Kingdom though they will have to repent of their sins in this life or the next, and possibly even pay the price of that sin.  It is implied though in the Celestial Kingdom, they do not have the bodies of those in the higher degrees, but those which they earned from what they chose in this life.

To be fair, we have absolutely no revelation given on the meaning of D&C 131 whatsoever. No exposition or explanation beyond what's there. A few thoughts like the one given above...but they are obscure and, certainly, not revealed, accepted, canonized doctrine of any sort.

What we do know: Exaltation is the goal. Anything less is not a fullness of glory. Period.

So talking about things in terms of being in the Celestial Kingdom but not being exalted as if that's acceptable is equivalent to the idea that going to the Terrestrial Kingdom is acceptable. Obviously "acceptable" is a relative term. But without a doubt, God's goal for us all is exaltation.

Whereas I'll grant that there is a bit of theoretical cold logic to the idea that perhaps children who die young only qualified for that level of glory in the pre-existence and are thereby denied marriage (whereas there is NO sense to the idea that they simply chose that), there is nothing anywhere in the teachings of the church that suggests this is the case. It's a very strange speculation, imo, not to mention extremely and ridiculously harsh to the poor parents who have lost small children. It fits, to me, right in there with the non-LDS Christian idea that people who died without baptism are bound for hell. And we know what Mormon thought of those who would think such things. I believe terms such as, "in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity" and the like were freely used.

On a side note: I've seen it posited (I think by @Vort) that D&C 131 may be using the term "celestial" more generically than the named "Celestial Kingdom", and is simply a term meaning heavenly or the like. Read that way: "In the [heavenly] glory there are three heavens or degrees;", it could be referring to the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial kingdoms within the "celestial" glory. This is only "an" interpretation, and certainly not common. And I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that it's more than a theory (though I do believe, given the lack of further revelation on the matter, that it's as likely as there being actual 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom itself). And, of course, it doesn't make any sense that someone who refused to obey one of God's commandments would qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, but just not the highest degree. How does that work out, logically, to anyone? I'll obey all the commandments but this one, but that's acceptable somehow? Oh...and I might add...the one I refuse to obey is the core of the gospel, the key to everything, and the center of what God is. But that's okay. You can just blow that off and still be in the highest kingdom?

That is senseless. If we are humble enough to qualify for the Celestial Glory then how is it that we're too prideful to accept that one command? The idea is at odds with itself.

[JohnsonJones]

In the context throughout his life that Joseph Smith talked about this, pretty certain the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom was specific enough to the Celestial Kingdom and NOT the three degrees of glory.

Though not doctrine, Joseph was pretty explicit in regards to the second degree and those who were not married being in the Celestial Kingdom, but being servants.

This was something latched onto by Brigham Young and many other prophets up to at least Joseph Fielding Smith.  Unfortunately this was most often spoken of in relation to Blacks (who at the time did not have the priesthood and thus were unable to enter into the temple and the subsequent blessings of Eternal  Marriage) and their plausible fate in the ensuing situation in the Celestial Kingdom.  Note, this was NOT a continuation of what Joseph Smith discussed (his was more on those who were not married in mortality for eternity rather than those of African Heritage), and hence their own extrapolation.  It isn't doctrine, but they were pretty clear on that idea of different degrees within the Celestial Kingdom itself.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

In the context throughout his life that Joseph Smith talked about this, pretty certain the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom was specific enough to the Celestial Kingdom and NOT the three degrees of glory.

Though not doctrine, Joseph was pretty explicit in regards to the second degree and those who were not married being in the Celestial Kingdom, but being servants.

This was something latched onto by Brigham Young and many other prophets up to at least Joseph Fielding Smith.  Unfortunately this was most often spoken of in relation to Blacks (who at the time did not have the priesthood and thus were unable to enter into the temple and the subsequent blessings of Eternal  Marriage) and their plausible fate in the ensuing situation in the Celestial Kingdom.  Note, this was NOT a continuation of what Joseph Smith discussed (his was more on those who were not married in mortality for eternity rather than those of African Heritage), and hence their own extrapolation.  It isn't doctrine, but they were pretty clear on that idea of different degrees within the Celestial Kingdom itself.

And yet they were discussing blacks as potentially being eternal servants to white folk. I think we can safely conclude that in regards to this matter that they didn't know what they were talking about.

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

And yet they were discussing blacks as potentially being eternal servants to white folk. I think we can safely conclude that in regards to this matter that they didn't know what they were talking about.

It was an extrapolation on Joseph Smiths teachings that those who were not married in mortality were the second degree, or the servants of those who did attain exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.  Their logic was that these individuals could not obtain a celestial marriage, hence their logic was that they could only be servants in the second degree, (but still crowned with power to do all things, but not the power to have offspring) in the Celestial Kingdom.  It may be flawed as we know what later revelation brought about with the priesthood, but the ideas they based it upon still are there.

This idea in regards to the three degrees of glory and the three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom are still in LDS teachings, and as per the LDS site (and not in the historical essays which I could say may be suspect, as being done in the world rather than the church's esteem, these are done on the definitions of things in regards to our understanding on LDS topics) it mentions this idea.

Kingdoms of Glory

Inserting the portion of the Celestial Kingdom here, bolding is NOT in the original transcript, but my doing for the quote.

Quote

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood” (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50-70; 76:92-96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1-6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; ”Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

“For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:7-9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, “I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

The terrestrial and telestial entries are BELOW that portion that is under the Celestial Kingdom entry.

 

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

In the context throughout his life that Joseph Smith talked about this, pretty certain the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom was specific enough to the Celestial Kingdom and NOT the three degrees of glory.

Though not doctrine, Joseph was pretty explicit in regards to the second degree and those who were not married being in the Celestial Kingdom, but being servants.

Can you provide some references for this explicit teaching?