Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Traveler]

@CV75 – It appears that you are a deep thinker.  My background in the work place is a engineer in automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.  I run a little consulting business from my home.  About 95% of my work is in creating test scenarios and analyzing results.   Mostly I work with large scale systems in manufacturing.   For example, I provide projections of what will happen when a new robot is introduced into a manufacturing plant.  One plant I work with has potential profit of 5 million dollars a day.  It is critical to them that when a new robot in introduced into their plant that not only can the robot preform the expected function but that it enhances the overall operations of the plant.

It has helped me greatly that I have a uncanny ability to predict outcomes.  From my experience and ability, I create test scenarios of the existing equipment as well as the new robot.  Much of my testing is in pushing the limits of operation.  I especially test the limits where failure occurs and things breakdown and do not work.  From time to time third party providers are resentful that I push their stuff to their limits.  Often in my testing I suggest design changes for the 3^rd party providers that result in their offering me a position with them.

My point is that I think I have gained insight into why G-d in his great plan of Salvation includes our mortal probation.  A probation that by design is intended to put us (his children) into a situation of ultimate failure that is given the label of “death” which is the meaning of Hell.

One of my jobs is to test and gather information so when the new robot is installed there are no surprises and everything happens according to plan.  I do this through a “progressions” of tests.  As I get to the conclusions of tests I know I have done my job when the tests result in exactly what I had planned.  If my testing fails at this point – there are things to be regressed and started over.

I see mortality as our final testing.  It is not to determine pass or fail or even a grade.  My final testing defines how the new stuff will be utilized in the plant and it loading.  Sometimes my work provides expanded use or sometimes diminished use based on it capabilities.

I am of the mind that G-d has been preparing us and we have been preparing ourselves.  We (both ourselves and G-d) know what we must do to prepare ourselves for whatever kingdom we intend to achieve.  I am of the mind this life is well planned and determined.  But when I say determined I mean it is determined by our agency and choice.  I believe our mortal life is by our choice to complete what we have spent billions of years becoming.

 

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

On 2/25/2013 at 11:42 AM, kstevens67 said:

An interesting discussion in class the other day:

The non-believers stand-point:

1. The Christian God is omnipotent and omniscient.

2. If God created us knowing everything

3. He knows who will eventually end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell

4. If the above are true, then we only have the Illusion of free will since we cannot see the future.

5. The God would then not be moral for punishing us for something He knows we will do upon creation.

The believer’s stand-point was the following:

1. Knowing and forcing are two different things

2. God created us to have free will as one of the reasons we are here is learn to love.

3. Love cannot be forced.

In the end the discussion was the non-believers would state that both an Omnipotent and Omniscient God cannot coexist with free will. This is a logical contradiction since this God knows what we will do which predetermines are actions and we cannot have free will. The believers would state that this is not a logical contradiction at all as knowing does not equal forcing.

I left when both sides just started claiming the other illogical and unreasonable without furthering the discussion. What is the LDS viewpoint on the above?

In my view, which is limited I’m sure, our Father in Heaven must know the future as He shows the future in revelations and possibly other areas of the scriptures. What does it mean when we say God is omnipotent and omniscient?

Some definitions:

Omnipotent - Having very great or unlimited authority or power.

Omniscient - Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Going by these definitions does this mean He knows if I am going to sin 10 years from now and there is nothing I can do about it? It would seem so as if He doesn’t than His knowledge would be limited which goes against the definition of omniscient. On the other hand (correct me of I am wrong on this) the LDS views our Father in Heaven as progressing like we are. This may lead to the idea that the definitions of omnipotent and omniscient man is using are different from what God would define them as. I still hold to the idea that God may know the future, but we are the ones determining the future using our free will.

Another thought would be that our Father in Heaven has perfect knowledge in all things regarding the best way to live, but does not have knowledge completely regarding our every action we will make in the future. All throughout the scriptures, Heavenly Father is allowing people to change and repent. He has the perfect knowledge of what’s best for everyone. This would possibly require that the definition man is using may not be entirely correct.

Just a couple thoughts I decided to throw out there. Does the LDS hold a certain view or is this kind of left open to the individual?

of course theres free will.. my knowledge does not restrict your actions, or your options within which to choose from.
or I might also suggest studying battle tactics- does foreknowledge restrict one's opponent?

LDS are tought free agency, however the exact specifics are left up to them to find out on their own.

personally i think the more interesting question is does Omnescience restrict the free will of the individual who is omniscient?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

of course theres free will.. my knowledge does not restrict your actions, or your options within which to choose from.
or I might also suggest studying battle tactics- does foreknowledge restrict one's opponent?

LDS are tought free agency, however the exact specifics are left up to them to find out on their own.

personally i think the more interesting question is does Omnescience restrict the free will of the individual who is omniscient?

Being omniscient to me means knowing all that is possible to be known. Our futures are not known, not by us, by God, nor anyone. God may have a great knowledge about what may happen to each of us but it is definitely not set in stone. I believe in a God that counsels, uses strategy, wisdom, choices, etc, to make continual adjustments to bring to pass his will. I do not believe in a God that already knows every detail of the future because it would make God evil. Why? Because God would knowingly create certain individuals doomed eternally to perdition, their fate already sealed before they were ever created. Thus, God would have to knowingly create, raise and bring to pass those who are to be eternally damned. And then, on the other end of that spectrum, God would knowingly create, raise and bring to pass those destined for eternal life. For our part, under this paradigm, we would already be sealed one way or the other. Lets say I was destined for hell according to Gods perfect knowledge but at this time I was trying to get closer to God and live his commandments. Praying to God, having him answer, would all be part of my eternal path to damnation, and God woukd be a major part of that!

Thus, one can see why its paramount why God can only know all that is possible to be known but as for the exact future, no one, including God, knows for sure. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Our futures are not known, not by us, by God, nor anyone.

This is incorrect.

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I do not believe in a God that already knows every detail of the future because it would make God evil. Why? Because God would knowingly create certain individuals doomed eternally to perdition, their fate already sealed before they were ever created.

Again, this is incorrect. This is the sort of fallacy I would expect from a non-LDS Christian who does not understand Joseph Smith's doctrine that we -- that is, our intelligences -- are eternal and uncreated, coequal with God.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, Vort said:

This is incorrect.

Again, this is incorrect. This is the sort of fallacy I would expect from a non-LDS Christian who does not understand Joseph Smith's doctrine that we -- that is, our intelligences -- are eternal and uncreated, coequal with God.

Im correct on this issue.

[Vort]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Im correct on this issue.

No, you're not. You are incorrect on this issue.

[Vort]

On 2/25/2013 at 10:42 AM, kstevens67 said:

An interesting discussion in class the other day:

The non-believers stand-point:

1. The Christian God is omnipotent and omniscient.

2. If God created us knowing everything

3. He knows who will eventually end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell

4. If the above are true, then we only have the Illusion of free will since we cannot see the future.

5. The God would then not be moral for punishing us for something He knows we will do upon creation.

The believer’s stand-point was the following:

1. Knowing and forcing are two different things

2. God created us to have free will as one of the reasons we are here is learn to love.

3. Love cannot be forced.

In the end the discussion was the non-believers would state that both an Omnipotent and Omniscient God cannot coexist with free will. This is a logical contradiction since this God knows what we will do which predetermines are actions and we cannot have free will. The believers would state that this is not a logical contradiction at all as knowing does not equal forcing.

I left when both sides just started claiming the other illogical and unreasonable without furthering the discussion. What is the LDS viewpoint on the above?

In my view, which is limited I’m sure, our Father in Heaven must know the future as He shows the future in revelations and possibly other areas of the scriptures. What does it mean when we say God is omnipotent and omniscient?

Some definitions:

Omnipotent - Having very great or unlimited authority or power.

Omniscient - Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Going by these definitions does this mean He knows if I am going to sin 10 years from now and there is nothing I can do about it? It would seem so as if He doesn’t than His knowledge would be limited which goes against the definition of omniscient. On the other hand (correct me of I am wrong on this) the LDS views our Father in Heaven as progressing like we are. This may lead to the idea that the definitions of omnipotent and omniscient man is using are different from what God would define them as. I still hold to the idea that God may know the future, but we are the ones determining the future using our free will.

Another thought would be that our Father in Heaven has perfect knowledge in all things regarding the best way to live, but does not have knowledge completely regarding our every action we will make in the future. All throughout the scriptures, Heavenly Father is allowing people to change and repent. He has the perfect knowledge of what’s best for everyone. This would possibly require that the definition man is using may not be entirely correct.

Just a couple thoughts I decided to throw out there. Does the LDS hold a certain view or is this kind of left open to the individual?

What is "free will"? What does it mean "to have free will"?

In what sense did God "create" us? Is there any part of our beings that God did not create?

This is a question of definitions. You are using words that you do not understand -- words like "create" and "free will" -- so it is inevitable that you will arrive at a wrong conclusion. My suggestion is that you come to know God and learn to see his hand in your life, and then revisit this question in twenty or thirty or fifty years, when you have some perspective and perhaps some new insights into these words and the underlying realities they represent.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

No, you're not. You are incorrect on this issue.

Okay...

One question- do you think our God makes decisions?

[Vort]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Okay...

One question- do you think our God makes decisions?

One answer - three point zero one grams per cubic centimeter.

Okay, another answer - Yes. Of course God makes decisions.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

One answer - three point zero one grams per cubic centimeter.

Okay, another answer - Yes. Of course God makes decisions.

Then God cant possibly know every detail of the future.

Making decisions means that at least two or more options exist that effect the path of the future and also effect future decisions beyond that. If we say God already knows every detail, then it would mean he doesnt make decisions but instead just follows an exact script of which he himself can never deviate from because to choose otherwise would change what akready was supposed to be perfectly known. So, to outsiders it may appear he would be making decisions, but it wouldnt be true, God would only give the perception for us he makes decisions when in fact he would be unable to choose, already knowing exactly what must certainly come to pass never deviating from that course. 

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Then God cant possibly know every detail of the future.

Non sequitur.

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Making decisions means that at least two or more options exist that effect the path of the future and also effect future decisions beyond that. If we say God already knows every detail, then it would mean he doesnt make decisions but instead just follows an exact script of which he himself can never deviate from because to choose otherwise would change what akready was supposed to be perfectly known. So, to outsiders it may appear he would be making decisions, but it wouldnt be true, God would only give the perception for us he makes decisions when in fact he would be unable to choose, already knowing exactly what must certainly come to pass never deviating from that course.

You are speaking from a position of ignorance, assuming God's understanding of reality and causality is essentially identical to your own. This is absurd on its face. Of course God makes decisions -- perfect decisions based on perfect knowledge. That is a situation you have rarely or never encountered and that you cannot possibly comprehend on God's level. Your ignorance, however, does not mean God cannot do it. It means only that the power is beyond your ken.

[Rob Osborn]

23 minutes ago, Vort said:

Non sequitur.

You are speaking from a position of ignorance, assuming God's understanding of reality and causality is essentially identical to your own. This is absurd on its face. Of course God makes decisions -- perfect decisions based on perfect knowledge. That is a situation you have rarely or never encountered and that you cannot possibly comprehend on God's level. Your ignorance, however, does not mean God cannot do it. It means only that the power is beyond your ken.

Ignorance eh? Its been nice talking to you. Have a nice week

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ignorance eh?

I think too many people read "ignorance" as "stupidity". It's really just lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular. We are all ignorant. If we can't admit that, we never learn anything. 

There are those who are willfully ignorant, which IS stupid, in my opinion. 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I think too many people read "ignorance" as "stupidity". It's really just lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular. We are all ignorant. If we can't admit that, we never learn anything. 

There are those who are willfully ignorant, which IS stupid, in my opinion. 

Problem is that this is actually one of the particular things I have spent a lot of time studying, reading lots of books on philosophy of God and existentialism, etc. Im not ignorant on the subject. Its sad that in this conversation we are just barely scratching the surface of what I have studied and to have someone basically say you know nothing...sometimes its better to just walk away...

[Guest]

Well, there's studying and there's experience. I've read and watched an awful lot about medicine, but I've never performed surgery and you probably wouldn't want me to, unless I had a lot of training and hands-on experience. I'm ignorant of things I could only learn by doing.

[Traveler]

@Rob Osborn

I am sure your ideas have merit – your thinking shows considerations but it is my opinion that you need to broaden your considerations.  First lets consider D&C 93:24:

Quote

And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

As we consider G-d, even from a scientific perspective of temporal order – we know that because of what we call physical laws and that such laws are “isotropic” that we can calculate and predict the future knowing the parameters involved.  Man has the innate ability to anticipate what will happen and how things will turn out in the future.  This allows us to hit a moving target because we can anticipate enough into the future to know where something will be when our projectile gets there.

We may now as the question concerning what will become of an intelligent entity that can make choices and change outcomes.  That may seem unreasonably complex but the intelligence of G-d can exceed that complexity.  Let us consider now D&C 93:30-31

Quote

All truth is independent in that sphere in which G-d has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Note; that agency is a process by which things already known are made manifested.  Because of the way this is worded – I am inclined that not only did G-d understand our agency and but because of our agency – we also knew the outcome from the beginning.  This leaves us with the question of why would someone make bad choices knowing the outcome?  The answer to me is obvious – they choice and exercise of agency was to achieve the outcome.  If the outcome was not known – I contend that a choice of agency was not made but that the outcome was forced without choice or agency.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

30 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Well, there's studying and there's experience. I've read and watched an awful lot about medicine, but I've never performed surgery and you probably wouldn't want me to, unless I had a lot of training and hands-on experience. I'm ignorant of things I could only learn by doing.

Not sure how experience applies here in the realm of thought but if one is willing I would expound on why I know what I am saying regarding choice, free will and omniscience. 

 

[Rob Osborn]

48 minutes ago, Traveler said:

@Rob Osborn

I am sure your ideas have merit – your thinking shows considerations but it is my opinion that you need to broaden your considerations.  First lets consider D&C 93:24:

As we consider G-d, even from a scientific perspective of temporal order – we know that because of what we call physical laws and that such laws are “isotropic” that we can calculate and predict the future knowing the parameters involved.  Man has the innate ability to anticipate what will happen and how things will turn out in the future.  This allows us to hit a moving target because we can anticipate enough into the future to know where something will be when our projectile gets there.

We may now as the question concerning what will become of an intelligent entity that can make choices and change outcomes.  That may seem unreasonably complex but the intelligence of G-d can exceed that complexity.  Let us consider now D&C 93:30-31

Note; that agency is a process by which things already known are made manifested.  Because of the way this is worded – I am inclined that not only did G-d understand our agency and but because of our agency – we also knew the outcome from the beginning.  This leaves us with the question of why would someone make bad choices knowing the outcome?  The answer to me is obvious – they choice and exercise of agency was to achieve the outcome.  If the outcome was not known – I contend that a choice of agency was not made but that the outcome was forced without choice or agency.

 

The Traveler

God knows whats possible to know and that which he wills or directly causes to happen. For instance- God knew that in the latter days he would bring forth his gospel and cover the earth with it. This is a truth because God does not lie and he said he would do it. Now, of course God still has to act, make choices based on circumstance, etc. But in the end, his result is without failing, he very much will cover the earth in the gospel and this according to his work, his decisions, his timing. These are of course things he controls completely. Agency and free will on the other hand he doesnt have that same control. He can only react and adjust to the choices we make. Im sure he knows us well enough to plot the various different outcomes we may make but free will and intelligence is very interesting and has profound effects on the decisions we make. Of course God can influence our understanding and free will, but in the end we make the choice ourselves. 

The trivial thing here is that choices are what shape and direct the future, its not a script or mathematical equation that does such. And God himself does not act in every influence or action that takes place to bring about his will. Angels, spirits, etc, do a lot of his work to bring about his will. Its not a perfect script nor can it be. Its a process for God to do what he can and then observe and see if we will obey, sometimes we do and sometimes we dont. God in his foreknowledge has plans of "if this then that but if not that then this". This allows God to still bring about the future objective with a multiple path scenerio.

A though experiment I thought of when I was a kid was if it was possible to know beforehand which Hotwheels car I would choose before entering the store. Of course its possible to know which style of car I liked, what color I most liked, etc. Beyond that it gets more compkex and becomes the crux of intelligent choice and why its impossible to know beforehand. Its one of the unique traits of an intelligent agent. Let me explain-

As intelligences we like pleasure and enjoying a mixture of old and new things. But where that fine line meets is the moment of reasoning and what makes choice so interesting. We all have the ability to see ourselves in a future sense so to speak on the value of a decision. In this case in may be something as complex as how the particular sun shines off the fenders of the Hotwheels at dusk. We picture that image in our mind before we buy it. But its not this really that makes us choose. Its that we are always deeply wanting to expand the unknown and find new pleasures. Its in this desire that drives us to make choices and let our senses be entertained. Its also what drives us as problem solvers and taking joy in making good jydgments in decisions because it gives us pleasure. Its why we exist.

Analogous to God, he too, like us enjoys entertainment, problem solving, etc. But that only can exist if choice remains unique in each one of us acting as separate agents. We all like birthday surprises and the like. Its one if the eternal blessings we have to enjoy. God too likes entertainment surprises and I know that in heaven Gid enjoys new experiences. New experinces means one does not know beforehand all the details. And its in that very thing that gives us meaning and joy and why we exist.

It goes much deeper though. We know its only possible to know a finite number of things, although it may be very very great. Its not possible to ever know an infinite amount of things. This logic then states that Gods creations truly are numbered but are ever increasing. And so it is with experiencing new problems, entertainment, etc. its not possible to know every possible way an instrument can be played, the music it creates, etc, because that would entail knowing an infinite amount of things which isnt possible. Then when you add in the endless places, curcumstances, etc, that the instrument could get played in which in itself makes each encounter different and unique it tells us something about eternity. It tells us that we, like God, will continue into eternity always feeling new ways to experience things. It means its impossible to know "everything" because that cannot be numbered and our experuences will always be numbered in sequence

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, Eowyn said:

I think too many people read "ignorance" as "stupidity". It's really just lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular. We are all ignorant. If we can't admit that, we never learn anything. 

There are those who are willfully ignorant, which IS stupid, in my opinion. 

I read the back and forth, one of them is out of line the other is not......seems pretty clear who that is @VORT

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

God knows whats possible to know and that which he wills or directly causes to happen. For instance- God knew that in the latter days he would bring forth his gospel and cover the earth with it. This is a truth because God does not lie and he said he would do it. Now, of course God still has to act, make choices based on circumstance, etc. But in the end, his result is without failing, he very much will cover the earth in the gospel and this according to his work, his decisions, his timing. These are of course things he controls completely. Agency and free will on the other hand he doesnt have that same control. He can only react and adjust to the choices we make. Im sure he knows us well enough to plot the various different outcomes we may make but free will and intelligence is very interesting and has profound effects on the decisions we make. Of course God can influence our understanding and free will, but in the end we make the choice ourselves. 

The trivial thing here is that choices are what shape and direct the future, its not a script or mathematical equation that does such. And God himself does not act in every influence or action that takes place to bring about his will. Angels, spirits, etc, do a lot of his work to bring about his will. Its not a perfect script nor can it be. Its a process for God to do what he can and then observe and see if we will obey, sometimes we do and sometimes we dont. God in his foreknowledge has plans of "if this then that but if not that then this". This allows God to still bring about the future objective with a multiple path scenerio.

A though experiment I thought of when I was a kid was if it was possible to know beforehand which Hotwheels car I would choose before entering the store. Of course its possible to know which style of car I liked, what color I most liked, etc. Beyond that it gets more compkex and becomes the crux of intelligent choice and why its impossible to know beforehand. Its one of the unique traits of an intelligent agent. Let me explain-

As intelligences we like pleasure and enjoying a mixture of old and new things. But where that fine line meets is the moment of reasoning and what makes choice so interesting. We all have the ability to see ourselves in a future sense so to speak on the value of a decision. In this case in may be something as complex as how the particular sun shines off the fenders of the Hotwheels at dusk. We picture that image in our mind before we buy it. But its not this really that makes us choose. Its that we are always deeply wanting to expand the unknown and find new pleasures. Its in this desire that drives us to make choices and let our senses be entertained. Its also what drives us as problem solvers and taking joy in making good jydgments in decisions because it gives us pleasure. Its why we exist.

Analogous to God, he too, like us enjoys entertainment, problem solving, etc. But that only can exist if choice remains unique in each one of us acting as separate agents. We all like birthday surprises and the like. Its one if the eternal blessings we have to enjoy. God too likes entertainment surprises and I know that in heaven Gid enjoys new experiences. New experinces means one does not know beforehand all the details. And its in that very thing that gives us meaning and joy and why we exist.

It goes much deeper though. We know its only possible to know a finite number of things, although it may be very very great. Its not possible to ever know an infinite amount of things. This logic then states that Gods creations truly are numbered but are ever increasing. And so it is with experiencing new problems, entertainment, etc. its not possible to know every possible way an instrument can be played, the music it creates, etc, because that would entail knowing an infinite amount of things which isnt possible. Then when you add in the endless places, curcumstances, etc, that the instrument could get played in which in itself makes each encounter different and unique it tells us something about eternity. It tells us that we, like God, will continue into eternity always feeling new ways to experience things. It means its impossible to know "everything" because that cannot be numbered and our experuences will always be numbered in sequence

Choice makes a difference??? really???  What choice (agency) will allow you to not experience death?

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Problem is that this is actually one of the particular things I have spent a lot of time studying, reading lots of books on philosophy of God and existentialism, etc. Im not ignorant on the subject. Its sad that in this conversation we are just barely scratching the surface of what I have studied and to have someone basically say you know nothing...sometimes its better to just walk away...

Congratulations on having "spent a lot of time studying" this topic. But so what? You're still thinking that God's experience mirrors your own. You have no conception of how God experiences things. You are ignorant. All of your months of study don't change this central fact.

God is omniscient. He knows all that is knowable. On that we agree. The idea that God's foreknowledge of something therefore makes that thing fated to happen and unchangeable, and that this somehow transgresses will or agency, is merely a manifestation of ignorance. And the idea that God makes choices, and that choices must necessarily imply some level of inability to distinguish future events, is pure nonsense.

I realize that by pointing out your ignorance, I have eviscerated your arguments -- which is probably why you're in a snit about it. I sincerely did not mean to offend you, Rob. But you are ignorant. Your arguments on this point do not hold up even to simple scrutiny, your years of reading philosophy books notwithstanding.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Congratulations on having "spent a lot of time studying" this topic. But so what? You're still thinking that God's experience mirrors your own. You have no conception of how God experiences things. You are ignorant. All of your months of study don't change this central fact.

God is omniscient. He knows all that is knowable. On that we agree. The idea that God's foreknowledge of something therefore makes that thing fated to happen and unchangeable, and that this somehow transgresses will or agency, is merely a manifestation of ignorance. And the idea that God makes choices, and that choices must necessarily imply some level of inability to distinguish future events, is pure nonsense.

I realize that by pointing out your ignorance, I have eviscerated your arguments -- which is probably why you're in a snit about it. I sincerely did not mean to offend you, Rob. But you are ignorant. Your arguments on this point do not hold up even to simple scrutiny, your years of reading philosophy books notwithstanding.

Like I said before, have yourself a nice week. I do not wish to have dialogue with you in this manner

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Being omniscient to me means knowing all that is possible to be known. Our futures are not known, not by us, by God, nor anyone. God may have a great knowledge about what may happen to each of us but it is definitely not set in stone. I believe in a God that counsels, uses strategy, wisdom, choices, etc, to make continual adjustments to bring to pass his will. I do not believe in a God that already knows every detail of the future because it would make God evil. Why? Because God would knowingly create certain individuals doomed eternally to perdition, their fate already sealed before they were ever created. Thus, God would have to knowingly create, raise and bring to pass those who are to be eternally damned. And then, on the other end of that spectrum, God would knowingly create, raise and bring to pass those destined for eternal life. For our part, under this paradigm, we would already be sealed one way or the other. Lets say I was destined for hell according to Gods perfect knowledge but at this time I was trying to get closer to God and live his commandments. Praying to God, having him answer, would all be part of my eternal path to damnation, and God woukd be a major part of that!

Thus, one can see why its paramount why God can only know all that is possible to be known but as for the exact future, no one, including God, knows for sure. 

This only applies to the teaching of creatio ex nihilo.

It is inapplicable to LDS teaching on creation.

Rob, I just assumed you are LDS.  I realize you didn't specify your religion on your profile.  Just to make sure, you're LDS, right?

[CV75]

On 2/28/2017 at 9:18 AM, Traveler said:

 

I do not have access to any revelation that is not available to ever other saint in these last days – but this is my thinking and what I accept on faith as a mortal.  I believe that all things are known to G-d and were inclusive to his plan.  Nothing is going to happen or even can happen that could frustrate his plan.  Though we have agency – that agency allows us to act (choose) in the sphere in which we are “placed”.  For me this means that we can only make choices in this life that were already known and the outcome accounted for – I speculate that the outcome is already known.

Since all things are known to G-d; it is my speculation that this knowledge is not temporal to G-d.  Meaning that he knew, with impunity in the pre-existence all things concerning us and our choices in mortality.   It is my faith and belief in G-d that as we contemplated our earthly experience that he would allow us to know, as He did, all things pertaining to our mortal experience.  I cannot think of a single reason why we would not have access to any knowledge available to him.  To me, such access to his knowledge is in part what it means to be “in his presents”.

Thus, I believe we made choices in our pre-existence with full knowledge of the consequences and outcomes.   Keep in mind, that in this life our understanding of consequences and outcomes are at best a shadow of what will be viewed primarily through faith.  Sometimes I think that outcome and knowledge of this life  is currently missing so we do not understand the atonement and the power of the atonement to change the consequences and outcomes of sin. 

 

The Traveler

While I appreciate the analogy, I see the probation by design is “to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.” I do not take this to mean that spirits are pre-designed or pre-determined to keep the laws or commandments of various less-than-exalted kingdoms since Jesus descended below and ascended above all things to prevent that, or to prepare everyone for exaltation. Neither do I take this to mean we made our selection of a kingdom of glory prior to the second estate. Plus, we do all that vicarious temple work for that very purpose!

The mortal system is temporary and in that sense is designed (destined) to ultimately fail, but it is accompanied by a concurrent and overarching divine system which ultimately replaces it. There is no place in the mortal system where the light of Christ (or since His Ascension, the living Christ) cannot reach, even though we all suffer physical and spiritual death. Because we each experience these in terms of degree, there is no push to ultimate failure except in the physical expiration of the body, which is not necessarily a bad thing, just the end of the test.

I do appreciate the idea that mortality is our final testing prior to immortality. But because of its design “to see” our fitness, I think it is yet to be seen where we will be utilized in the hereafter.

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Like I said before, have yourself a nice week.

Thanks. I hope to. Same to you.

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I do not wish to have dialogue with you in this manner

So you will dialogue only on conditions that I don't point out your ignorance or that your arguments are baseless? Those conditions don't allow for much of a dialogue.