Richard Dutcher, creator of God's Army films, leaves the Church


Magus
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To be honest I kind of see where Magus is coming from. I too would wonder how can someone go that quickly from a testimony to a non testimony. I still wonder sometimes how one little thing in the gospel or old church history can have such a bearing on whether someone stays or leaves the church.

So yeh..I can see where the OP is coming from. And yes I agree with others that there needs to be much love and understanding from others. But the points the OP brought up I understand too.

Thanks for seeing where I was coming from.

And for the umpteenth time (I'm addressing everyone here), I do have love, understanding and compassion for Dutcher.

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Much of the time it's not what you say, quite as much as the delivery.

I understand - and it's especially hard to catch tone and such on an internet forum, but.....I'm not going to take responsibility for other peoples' sensitivities. Especially when they are so quick to label me as having a superiority complex and say that I think I'm better than others.

Seriously - some people need to look in the mirror when they accuse others of being judgmental on an internet forum.

I came on here and just wanted to post my honest reaction and feelings to the situation and see how people took that.

You're right, I don't know anything about the culture of this site. But I guess I'm finding out.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Are you trying to tell me the big testimony-shattering boogie man is out there waiting for me and I better watch out, because oh boy you found him?

You have no idea of the Hell I have been through in the last few years so don't even start with me.

There is plenty more I would like to say to you, but personal attacks are against the rules. So I'll just say, "welcome to the forum" and leave the rest to your imagination.

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Okay, I'll just try to head this off before it goes any further.

I apologize to anyone who was offended by my strong tone and stance. I knew I was being confrontational - but it rubbed me the wrong way how everyone was making assumptions about my character simply for making a strong statement, and that put me on the defensive. Also, just not been in the most caring mood today. So, hope you'll accept my apology, peoples.

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You have no idea of the Hell I have been through in the last few years so don't even start with me.

There is plenty more I would like to say to you, but personal attacks are against the rules. So I'll just say, "welcome to the forum" and leave the rest to your imagination.

to you, personally - i apologize for any offense i gave you. sincerely.

would love to hear all about the hell you've been through. tell me about it.

see? i'm being nice and understanding now. :)

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Thanks. I am sorry that your intro here has been a bit rocky. I can see where it would make one feel confrontational and or defensive.

If it helps you are not the first person on the board to get on my nerves...I haven't even put you on "ignore" yet...so things could be worse. :D

Here's my olive branch, and a new beginning.

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Magus... take a moment to put the shoe on the other foot in this case (your foot in this example)

You have your own personal sins and failings (as do we all) what would be your opinion be if someone took to a public forum and berated your for your weakness... and said that your faith and testimony must be totally lame if you can't simply just stop whatever it is that is your weakness. Then when they got called out for it that their defense was that they were totally entitled to rake you over the coals because they have an opinion on how you should be running your life instead?

While it is a given that people don't always get why some else stumbles and falls... It is the place of a follower of Christ to help them stand back up, not to kick them while they are down. And while it might not have been your intent you came across as doing more of the latter then you were the former.

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To be honest I kind of see where Magus is coming from. I too would wonder how can someone go that quickly from a testimony to a non testimony. I still wonder sometimes how one little thing in the gospel or old church history can have such a bearing on whether someone stays or leaves the church.

So yeh..I can see where the OP is coming from. And yes I agree with others that there needs to be much love and understanding from others. But the points the OP brought up I understand too.

It took one sentence to jar my testimony. One. (and no, it had nothing to do with church history, or anyone offending me, or anything like that). Five minutes beforehand I would have said I had a very steady, sure Testimony of the Gospel. That one sentence threw me into a hole of doubting that took me 2+ years to pull myself far enough out of to where I could confidently say I had a strong Testimony again. There was a significant period of time though where my leaving the Church was a very real possibility.

In my opinion I think it's a bit of a defense mechanism to try and define what someone's pre-doubting Testimony was like. It helps us feel more secure in our own sureness if we can convince ourselves that someone who has fallen away "never really believed in the first place". It lets us believe that it'll never happen to us, that our Testimonies are safe from the darts of the adversary.

Edited by Jenamarie
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Makes me think of the parable about the seeds that were planted in the different kinds of ground. Maybe those who fall away weren't planted in the best soil to begin with...??

To have a true knowledge of the gospel and then to walk away and deny it all is denying the Holy Ghost, right? Do we know for a surety of anybody who has done this (other than Satan and 1/3 the hosts of heaven rebelling in the first estate, and Cain here in the second estate)? Other than those, none of us can proclaim omniscience to know whether any other human actually had a total surety and testimony of the gospel to begin with, can we?

Makes me think about Lehi's vision. Some head straight for the great and spacious building, some start off in the right direction and then get lost in the mist of darkness, some make it to the tree and then become ashamed, and then some endure to the end.

Maybe it is not so cut and dried as some would suppose. After all, we are missing that omniscience that God possesses to know such things about our brothers and sisters.

My question is, can we know it about ourselves? Can we know that we do have a testimony, or are we hoping we do? Do we only think, hope, and pray that we have a testimony...but the trials of faith are what actually prove whether we do or not. ????

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I like Richard Dutcher's films....especially Gods Army and Brigham City was a cool thriller as well. It is always sad to see a brother leave the fold....especially when it tears families asunder. But, inside it will always gnaw at him and eventually if he doesn't die first he will return. I can pass no judgement on him....I have never walked a mile in his shoes and only wish he Godspeed in his journey.

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My question is, can we know it about ourselves? Can we know that we do have a testimony, or are we hoping we do? Do we only think, hope, and pray that we have a testimony...but the trials of faith are what actually prove whether we do or not. ????

Interesting post TG. I can't say that I agree with you, (I don't, no offense) but it is good to ponder other possibilities, so thanks for that.

I am thinking of Elder Bednar's talk from a recent conference (was it last October or last April???) about testimony and conversion, how they are two different things....and even then with conversion...well, maybe this is a limited circumstance...but mental illness plays a part too...Dissociationdisorders can play havoc with your mind and your testimony.

In short, it's complicated. :D

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Magus... take a moment to put the shoe on the other foot in this case (your foot in this example)

You have your own personal sins and failings (as do we all) what would be your opinion be if someone took to a public forum and berated your for your weakness... and said that your faith and testimony must be totally lame if you can't simply just stop whatever it is that is your weakness. Then when they got called out for it that their defense was that they were totally entitled to rake you over the coals because they have an opinion on how you should be running your life instead?

While it is a given that people don't always get why some else stumbles and falls... It is the place of a follower of Christ to help them stand back up, not to kick them while they are down. And while it might not have been your intent you came across as doing more of the latter then you were the former.

i understand. my intent wasn't to rake Dutcher over the coals. It was just me wanting to express my own feelings about it. Which were surprise, shock and a bit of cynicism and defensiveness, as well as genuine pity and/or compassion, but which didn't get expressed as much in my comments.

though if Dutcher were here, I would tell him straight up how I feel in probably the same way (blunt honesty, I mean...and I'm bluntly honest with those I respect). I would be more tactful about it, but would express the same sentiments and ask him what kind of testimony he had to begin with, and then I would talk to him about what is bothering him so bad.

Edited by Magus
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I like Richard Dutcher's films....especially Gods Army and Brigham City was a cool thriller as well. It is always sad to see a brother leave the fold....especially when it tears families asunder. But, inside it will always gnaw at him and eventually if he doesn't die first he will return. I can pass no judgement on him....I have never walked a mile in his shoes and only wish he Godspeed in his journey.

now see, this is the thing that sort of bothers me. when people say they can't pass judgment. Surely we can pass judgment as to what is right and wrong? What is impressive and what is sad or pathetic? And I know "pathetic" is a loaded word, but I don't mean it in that kind of offensive way, I just mean something that is a shame or a waste in the face of opportunity for it to not be so.

On a personal level, no, we're not in Dutcher's shoes - but on a human level, yes, we are all in the same shoes and all have our faith tried. I'm not passing judgment on him as a person in relation to his eternal salvation - but I think any of us are entitled to pass at least some judgment on a person's actions, in direct accordance to how informed we are. Is that not rational?

The scriptures don't just say to not judge, they say to not judge unrighteously. Which I think was a JST addition, was it not?

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Few on this list will argue that Dutcher did not make a bad decision in leaving the Church and the gospel. So we're all (or at least mostly) with you on that topic. But your original post gave the impression of calling Dutcher on the carpet for his decision, which seems neither helpful nor even appropriate. I suspect it was not the underlying feelings you expressed, with which most of us would agree, but the unfortunate way you expressed them that led to the negative reactions you read.

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now see, this is the thing that sort of bothers me. when people say they can't pass judgment. Surely we can pass judgment as to what is right and wrong? What is impressive and what is sad or pathetic? And I know "pathetic" is a loaded word, but I don't mean it in that kind of offensive way, I just mean something that is a shame or a waste in the face of opportunity for it to not be so.

On a personal level, no, we're not in Dutcher's shoes - but on a human level, yes, we are all in the same shoes and all have our faith tried. I'm not passing judgment on him as a person in relation to his eternal salvation - but I think any of us are entitled to pass at least some judgment on a person's actions, in direct accordance to how informed we are. Is that not rational?

The scriptures don't just say to not judge, they say to not judge unrighteously. Which I think was a JST addition, was it not?

I simply mean that I don't know the whole story and don't feel the need to comment further on his journey. It is arrogant to believe that any of us are immune to temptation or that at some point we couldn't slip into a state of Spiritual ambivalence.

And...as for being judgmental.....you just haven't been around long enough. I am o'plenty judgmental and heap it out on a regular basis.

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Makes me think of the parable about the seeds that were planted in the different kinds of ground. Maybe those who fall away weren't planted in the best soil to begin with...??

To have a true knowledge of the gospel and then to walk away and deny it all is denying the Holy Ghost, right? Do we know for a surety of anybody who has done this (other than Satan and 1/3 the hosts of heaven rebelling in the first estate, and Cain here in the second estate)? Other than those, none of us can proclaim omniscience to know whether any other human actually had a total surety and testimony of the gospel to begin with, can we?

Makes me think about Lehi's vision. Some head straight for the great and spacious building, some start off in the right direction and then get lost in the mist of darkness, some make it to the tree and then become ashamed, and then some endure to the end.

Maybe it is not so cut and dried as some would suppose. After all, we are missing that omniscience that God possesses to know such things about our brothers and sisters.

My question is, can we know it about ourselves? Can we know that we do have a testimony, or are we hoping we do? Do we only think, hope, and pray that we have a testimony...but the trials of faith are what actually prove whether we do or not. ????

For me, my testimony relies on foundational spiritual experiences that I've had that have confirmed things for me. Instances where I've received powerful revelation from the Holy Ghost.

My core testimony consists of only those things that the Holy Ghost has born powerful witness to me of, which are:

God loves me more than I can comprehend.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, and as a nation we must follow him or perish.

The Testimony of the Three Witnesses is true, an angel truly did appear before them and show them the golden plates.

The Book of Mormon truly is a powerful, living book that will whisper to you from the dust.

The gathering of Israel is happening now.

The Three Kingdoms of Heaven do in reality exist, and the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is indeed obtainable.

Blessed are the persecuted - they will be comforted.

God's forgiveness is real and truly does cleanse you and make you new and born again.

God is always there and always ready and willing to help, no matter how far astray you've gone.

The temple is truly a place where God's spirit resides in tangibleness.

I know I had supernatural experiences that told me those things were true. I know I'm not crazy. And I know all of the other conclusions that follow as a result of those revelations stand to reason (the Church is true, etc etc etc). That's how I know I have a testimony.

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Interesting post TG. I can't say that I agree with you, (I don't, no offense) but it is good to ponder other possibilities, so thanks for that.

I am thinking of Elder Bednar's talk from a recent conference (was it last October or last April???) about testimony and conversion, how they are two different things....and even then with conversion...well, maybe this is a limited circumstance...but mental illness plays a part too...Dissociationdisorders can play havoc with your mind and your testimony.

In short, it's complicated. :D

No offense taken, as my "thinking out loud" questions were for pondering and for discussion. I absolutely agree, it is complicated.

I can definitely see where Satan has desired to do all he could to get me to leave the straight and narrow. For me, those very trials from hell itself have only solidified my testimony. Yet, for all that I have weathered and endured, I handle my testimony with care, lest my own arrogance succeed where Satan has thus failed.

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I simply mean that I don't know the whole story and don't feel the need to comment further on his journey. It is arrogant to believe that any of us are immune to temptation or that at some point we couldn't slip into a state of Spiritual ambivalence.

And...as for being judgmental.....you just haven't been around long enough. I am o'plenty judgmental and heap it out on a regular basis.

heh, well, spiritual ambivilance is one thing, but having a testimony is another. You can still have a testimony and be spiritually ambivilant.

Which is why it's so perplexing to me that he would leave the Church over some intellecutal issue regarding Joseph Smith/Church history. To me - those are some of the easiest things to deal with. A big part of that is because I already have a strong testimony, so I'm armed with that when I dig into the controversial things in Church history. But even if I weren't armed with that, there are explanations for pretty much every challenge, and they are reasonable ones.

I get the feeling like maybe his testimony wasn't up to the rigors of being challenged. Like it just wasn't used to it or something, and so when challenged, it surrendered. I don't know any of this of course, but that's just kind of what it sounds like.

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I don't think anyone here is happy that Dutcher made the choices he did. But having compassion for someone who is struggling doesn't make someone tender, at least not in the derogatory way you imply.

I'm not even LDS and I feel bad that the same soul that could help create States of Grace would end of losing faith altogether--enough to cost him his marriage, even. :(

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LOL, where did I say I was better than anyone else?

Looks like we got quite a few people here who have security issues.

For the record, I have the utmost respect for Dutcher. He's a great creative mind and a child of God. And I wished him well in his spiritual journey, did I not?

BUt nooooo, if I don't act all mooshy gooshy, overly sympathetic and "understanding" for what is undeniably a very regrettable and exquisitely ironic situation, I somehow think I'm better than everyone else.

Excellent conclusion there.

The tone of your entire post.

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The tone of your entire post.

Yeah, I know I sounded mean. Kinda like when people tell me I think I'm better than other people, that sounds mean to me too. :huh:

Anyway, I'm being nice now. Olive branches are extended. Truce.

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For me, my testimony relies on foundational spiritual experiences that I've had that have confirmed things for me. Instances where I've received powerful revelation from the Holy Ghost.

My core testimony consists of only those things that the Holy Ghost has born powerful witness to me of, which are:

God loves me more than I can comprehend.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, and as a nation we must follow him or perish.

The Testimony of the Three Witnesses is true, an angel truly did appear before them and show them the golden plates.

The Book of Mormon truly is a powerful, living book that will whisper to you from the dust.

The gathering of Israel is happening now.

The Three Kingdoms of Heaven do in reality exist, and the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is indeed obtainable.

Blessed are the persecuted - they will be comforted.

God's forgiveness is real and truly does cleanse you and make you new and born again.

God is always there and always ready and willing to help, no matter how far astray you've gone.

The temple is truly a place where God's spirit resides in tangibleness.

I know I had supernatural experiences that told me those things were true. I know I'm not crazy. And I know all of the other conclusions that follow as a result of those revelations stand to reason (the Church is true, etc etc etc). That's how I know I have a testimony.

Well...we don't really know what led to or why he made the choice he did.....it's all speculation. I very much doubt that it was anything to do with JS per se....perhaps just an excuse to make an exit and explore Babylon. I hope he makes it back...

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Well...we don't really know what led to or why he made the choice he did.....it's all speculation. I very much doubt that it was anything to do with JS per se....perhaps just an excuse to make an exit and explore Babylon. I hope he makes it back...

lol, exploring Babylon I could understand at least.

Yeah, I dunno. I still respect him as a person and film maker, of course. Just a shame, that's all.

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I'm not even LDS and I feel bad that the same soul that could help create States of Grace would end of losing faith altogether--enough to cost him his marriage, even. :(

yeah, I think that's actually the worst part of it.

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To be honest I kind of see where Magus is coming from. I too would wonder how can someone go that quickly from a testimony to a non testimony. I still wonder sometimes how one little thing in the gospel or old church history can have such a bearing on whether someone stays or leaves the church.

I see where both are coming from. But it happens. We've seen ministers lose their faith. An atheist group even has a "support group" for ministers who no longer believe (career transition, etc.). One rather famous mega-church pastor (former) exorcised a demon from a member. He now says he created the idea of the demon in the woman's mind, and that there is no literal devil. He's become a Universalist (believes everyone will be saved). Then, of course, there are the many sincere evangelicals who become LDS. ;)

It's so easy to judge, to condemn, to second guess why people abandon their faith (or convert to another). I sympathize with the inclination to say their faith was never deep, never well-thought out, that they were believers "in name only" etc. The one good thing about them officially leave is that they cast aside all pretension. They know where they stand. Ironically, there's more hope for apostates than there is for hypocrites.

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