Difficult Questions to me from an Ex-Mormon--PLEASE help me answer them!


InstilledPhear
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First of all, Selek, I'd have your relax and not get so offended by the questions. I have not brought them and am not your challenger. I interpreted your posts to me as some sort of backlash. I just thought, these are good points and worth discussion. I was not attacking you. :huh:

I am neither agitated nor offended. (Nor am I particularly subtle- when I'm upset, you'll know it ;)

I am genuinely trying to understand what you would have us say or do differently than we have done.

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Thanks Selek. I understand it was my interpretation and may may have been wrong but that is how I read it. This is a hard issue because so far this "conversation" has been one sided. It looks like the writer of this OP is 19 years old and in college. I'd be interested if this was actually a dialogue with her and all of you. That's what interests me.

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What would the answer mean to that person? what if a logical and coherent answer would draw that person closer to the Lord and they get answers that say "don't worry about it" or "it's old, rehashed." as an answer?

What would change in that person's life if they had the answer? perhaps lay the doubts to rest or if they find it does not measure up to claims then they would look elsewhere

Did they pray about it themselves? I cannot speak for Phear but is sounded to me as though they have thought on these questions a lot, is distressed, and asking what others think and how they would answer. I guessing prayer has been included

Did they study the scriptures themselves? you referenced the new 2013 edition scriptures. I'm not sure if you were saying read scripture or if there is new info in that Skippy?

Did they search for answers themselves? again, i cannot speak for the person that asked Phear the questions but that seems to side step the issue to me. If those questions were raised there must be a reason. It may be contradictory information, things that are not consistent with church beliefs or other reasons I guess.

Or are they expecting me to Let me google that for you?

Dr. T -

Generally, most people who ask these types of questions don't put in ANY study, and go into "panic" mode because they don't know the answers. It's as though their vision of the 'perfect faith' is crashing down... and they forget the way to peace: read, study and pray.

My questions are primarily to get the person to THINK about what it would mean... not necessarily to answer the questions, but for them to determine what the answers would REALLY mean to them and their testimony.

When some realize that the questions/concerns they have are not related to saving doctrines, it (can) help.

It's also the start to having a true thirst for studying the scriptures and to savor the answer once it is received.

So, in short, my questions aren't to necessarily get to a specific answer, but to have the asker determine their motivations before going down a quest for this knowledge.

Is it even worth the time to invest? IMO, based on trying to answer the claims of an ex-Mormon... it's pointless. But if the individual is having their own crisis of faith, then there is merit.

IMO, the THINKING process has to start first. (D&C 9:7-9)

BTW, for the thread, here is a book I highly recommend: Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt: Michael R. Ash: 9781893036147: Amazon.com: Books

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Whoa. I wasn't expecting so many responses in so little time. O__O Thank you so very much for your help so far!

To clarify, these are not my questions. They are the questions of a previous member that I watched fall away. I had a very good relationship with her, enough that I considered her my sister, before she left the church and her family to marry a fellow who is... very not good for her, to put it simply.

If ever there were a way to bring her back, even make her consider for only two seconds that it was maybe a bad idea to leave the church, then I'm going to do this for her. If it's a waste of time, so be it. At least I have the answers to these ridiculous questions if they ever come up again in the future!

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I had a very good relationship with her, enough that I considered her my sister, before she left the church and her family to marry a fellow who is... very not good for her, to put it simply.

If ever there were a way to bring her back, even make her consider for only two seconds that it was maybe a bad idea to leave the church, then I'm going to do this for her. If it's a waste of time, so be it. At least I have the answers to these ridiculous questions if they ever come up again in the future!

I hope I am misunderstanding your point, but I am concerned that you talk about your friendship in the past tense. I hope you are still friends. :)

My closest friend (besides my darling husband) is an ex-Mormon atheist. Like you, we have been friends for years, and I knew my friend before she left the church. It is hard to see her values change so dramatically, I admit. It was awkward at first...but things got better when we made a deal that I would not challenge her new beliefs, or try to convert her back to the church, and she would respect my beliefs and not try to "help" me see the "error" of my ways. We talked about other things we share in common. It's been awhile, and things are working out. I am grateful that I did not lose her friendship.

I admit, that I do hope someday she will return to the Lord, and to His church, but I firmly believe the best way to help her do that, is to continue to love her even when she is making choices that I don't personally agree with.

So naturally, I think the best way to help your friend is to agree NOT to talk about these things. Love her and focus on the things you still share in common....at one point she was like a sister to you...that sounds like a relationship worth working to preserve.

Also...perhaps you didn't mean it literally but...they are not "ridiculous" questions. They are really issues that try people's faith, and are likely a big part of the reason your friend left the church. We can't help people by telling them their questions/concerns are stupid or ridicullous. But again I recognize that perhaps you didn't mean it literally.

P.S....my faith crisis had nothing to do with these questions, but looking for some support and understanding, I ran into a lot of people that really struggle with these kinds of concerns and it is very painful for them.

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Whoa. I wasn't expecting so many responses in so little time. O__O Thank you so very much for your help so far!

To clarify, these are not my questions. They are the questions of a previous member that I watched fall away. I had a very good relationship with her, enough that I considered her my sister, before she left the church and her family to marry a fellow who is... very not good for her, to put it simply.

If ever there were a way to bring her back, even make her consider for only two seconds that it was maybe a bad idea to leave the church, then I'm going to do this for her. If it's a waste of time, so be it. At least I have the answers to these ridiculous questions if they ever come up again in the future!

Thank you. This really helps understand the context of which we are working within.

Let's say you stumbled onto an Anti-LDS site, and some RANDOM poster was asking these questions... I would wonder why you should bother.

But since this is someone you CARE about, and are CLOSE to, I can fully understand and appreciate where you are coming from... and it's a place of love.

Let us know if you need any further clarification. :)

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Thank you. This really helps understand the context of which we are working within.

Let's say you stumbled onto an Anti-LDS site, and some RANDOM poster was asking these questions... I would wonder why you should bother.

But since this is someone you CARE about, and are CLOSE to, I can fully understand and appreciate where you are coming from... and it's a place of love.

Let us know if you need any further clarification. :)

Ayep.

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I did tell you that my denomination is one that still believes in miracles...though I admit a through a bit of a sci fi twist in there. :D

PC, the itinerant preacher, travels not just the world but time in search of souls in need of the Gospel ofJesus Christ. I'm picturing a TARDIS type device shaped like a pulpit.

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These questions may be tried old rehashings to some folks that have been around the block. but to others, this is something they may not have contemplated before. I am presently aon the border of Mormonism and VERY MUCH want the truth to be something that will bring me back to believing fully again. I have found that asking questions is not always the way to learn the truth. There are still people that believe I have lost my testimony because of sin. WRONG. I can't ever go back to being so innocent and naive that I just automatically believe anything and everything the Church teaches. But I still want it to be true. This is all new to me. Not old and tired.

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I've read many assumptions on the motives of this individual who has questions for you. Many people have real and valid concerns with how the church has controlled the narrative of it's historical accounts. It has hindered their faith in the organization. Obviously I don't know the individual you are speaking of so I can't comment on their actual motives, but in my opinion the LDS church has done it's members a disservice by providing plenty of "milk" but no "meat" in regards to historical and doctrinal topics. I was actually just speaking with a couple institute professors regarding this very subject recently and they voiced the same concerns.

Having read many books and papers from a variety of historians, authors, BYU professors ect. on both sides and in-between (Bushman, Compton, Quinn, Hales, Palmer, Smith, Van Wagoner, Hancock, Barlow, Gordon to name just a few) You'll find that the standard church approved rhetoric regarding a variety of topics is not exactly what it seems. Some will simply read information on these topics from a variety of authors and find the analysis of the accounts "faith promoting" and others will find them detrimental to their belief in the church. Personally I don't find FAIRS to be the most objective source for material. Not to say that the majority of answers to questions from them I believe are invalid, but (in my opinion) I find more mental gymnastics needed to accepts some of their analysis-I'm just more of an Occam's Razor kind of person I guess so I'm willing to accept my own biases.

I find that the church is one group of individuals attempt to understand spirituality and the divine. It's organized and run by mortals with many flaws. To believe that the church and it's leaders simply rolled through the last 175+ years without making small, medium and large mistakes is....well, naive.

My advice would be to read from many of the authors listed above and begin to form an opinion for yourself. Don't make it a battle with the individual, show empathy and love for them. When you have a better understanding of the topics then discuss it with them if desired.

My 2 cents anyways...

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If you know of any inaccurate information on FAIR (not FAIRS) they are more than willing to correct it. Lately there has been a rash of accusations against FAIR by ex-Mormons who make similar claims to the one you are making right now. FAIR has asked what exactly is inaccurate with *any* of their information on their website and no one has produced any, instead they just attack FAIR. In my opinion, that is a good thing. If the anti-Mormons are mad at FAIR for what it does, then they must be doing something right :)

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The difficulty for those who delve into your church's history is in how to balance the claims of being the restored church, run by modern prophets, with the reality that even prophets are must depend on God, and sometimes do not.

Couple this with the how to make use of non-official and semi-official groups like FAIR, or even BYU's professors...even this site...and it can be difficult to know how to weigh the authoritativeness of various sources.

One of my mentors was an admitted "in-house" historian for our denomination. Nevertheless, one day he assigned us a book by a Harvard theologian (Harvey Cox). Afterwards, we were to write our reviews. Most of us, myself included, got caught up in defending our church against all criticisms. Most of us got Bs. The professor told us that we had missed the author's point (observations and some gentle commentary), and got caught up in our own prejudices (the Ivy League is liberal and anti-supernatural). He was a tough professor, and I was one of his better students. Ironically, I learned more from that B than I did most of my As.

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If you know of any inaccurate information on FAIR (not FAIRS) they are more than willing to correct it. Lately there has been a rash of accusations against FAIR by ex-Mormons who make similar claims to the one you are making right now. FAIR has asked what exactly is inaccurate with *any* of their information on their website and no one has produced any, instead they just attack FAIR. In my opinion, that is a good thing. If the anti-Mormons are mad at FAIR for what it does, then they must be doing something right :)

Hi Livy111us,

I have actually submitted information regarding certain subjects and indeed have had back and forth exchanges with different individuals. I have also seen language on the website and articles changed because of these types of exchanges. Whether it was directly because of myself or because of multiple people challenging the means to their answer provided at the same time is besides the point though.

FAIR provides a service that's needed because of the historical and doctrinal lack of transparency over the years. I simply find some of their research and formed opinions to be questionable, hearsay, unverifiable ect. Everyone is free to make their opinion though provided by the information available. FAIR provides that 2nd tier level of faith promoting answers.

There are many things that have happened in the past where there just isn’t a smoking gun to claims and accounts to assure something one way or another. All you find are dead bodies and blood (metaphorically speaking of course). My advice to the individual still stands as they should take the initiative and time to learn more about it from a variety of sources (including FAIR) and come to a conclusion on their own. A 20 minute scan of the FAIR site I believe isn’t enough.

Have a great day!

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The difficulty for those who delve into your church's history is in how to balance the claims of being the restored church, run by modern prophets, with the reality that even prophets are must depend on God, and sometimes do not.

Couple this with the how to make use of non-official and semi-official groups like FAIR, or even BYU's professors...even this site...and it can be difficult to know how to weigh the authoritativeness of various sources.

One of my mentors was an admitted "in-house" historian for our denomination. Nevertheless, one day he assigned us a book by a Harvard theologian (Harvey Cox). Afterwards, we were to write our reviews. Most of us, myself included, got caught up in defending our church against all criticisms. Most of us got Bs. The professor told us that we had missed the author's point (observations and some gentle commentary), and got caught up in our own prejudices (the Ivy League is liberal and anti-supernatural). He was a tough professor, and I was one of his better students. Ironically, I learned more from that B than I did most of my As.

Great insight PC. Thank you.

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." Robert Frost

Edited by Pintail73
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