Traditional VS Electronic scriptures. More Spirit?


EarlJibbs
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I searched other posts to see if I can find out if this has been brought up, but I didnt, so here we go.

We received a new Stake Presidency yesterday, and as such, had two Elders of the 70's speak at all of the meetings. I was attending the youth meeting and one of them told the youth that they will not be able to feel of the spirit as much if they are using electronics to read the scriptures and said that they should read on physical scriptures. My mind immediately started to contemplate reasons for this. And I must admit, I have not found a whole bunch. I am in no way saying the Elder was incorrect. I am simply trying to understand why this might be. Your thoughts?

My largest one is that the same device you are reading the scriptures on sends you constant alerts and reminders that you have emails, texts and FB updates...etc..

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Interesting. I taught my lesson to children off the ipad, read the scriptures to them from thelesson off the ipad, too. they seemed to get the same out of that than when I have the book.

I think kids see it as a way to read these days, no big deal, but if a GA told me to use a real book, I guess I would do that/

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They've asked our youth to have physical scriptures as well, but I think it's so they won't have the distraction of everything else on their devices.

To say you can feel the spirit more reading it in one format vs. another is silly to me, but they probably have their reasons.

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Well, I will go forward and completely say this Elder from the Quorum of Seventies was completely incorrect, and should avoid personal opinion as truth.

The Church has a website (electronic) which links, is able to highlight, and actually has a journal for taking notes for members of the Church. This evidence alone dictates to me that this Elder was sharing his personal opinion and not doctrinal truth.

Young men and Young women are able to complete their Personal Progress and Duty to God all online now. It is wonderful that this is an option. Why would the Church provide these options, scriptures and all, if the spirit was lost -- at any degree -- if they use electronic scriptures as provided on LDS.org? Simple, it doesn't loose the spirit at all.

The scriptures are the same whether they are a piece of paper, piece of plastic, piece of rock. The ten commandments written on rock didn't change the spirit of the giver, nor the spirit of the words when they were written on papyrus, or on gold tablets. It would be similar to saying the gold tablets have more spirit than white paper, and we would be more spiritual if we actually read the scriptures on gold tablets as Joseph Smith did.

The spirit is solely affected by personal righteousness and worthiness. I would have loved to hear any other words from this Elder.

Edited by Anddenex
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There is a pretty darn good case to be made for our youth showing signs of addictive behavior with their electronic gizmos. A few years ago, my bishop made that case in a combined 3rd hour, and I have to admit that he changed my thinking about it.

I remember helping the youth go to a firewood chopping fundraiser. 2 different kids urgently asked to borrow my cell phone, and I sat there as they made calls to whoever they knew, to talk about absolutely nothing of any importance. I've grown up around smokers, and watched them bum cigarettes off each other - the comparisons are eerily creepy.

I also know a few educators dealing in special ed, and have heard them talk about the mixed blessings that come from using iPads and whatnot as aids to education of special needs kids. Yes, there are plenty of blessings that come from an iPad, but the educators tell me what usually happens, is they have to fight the kids to stop playing games and playing videos and listening to music on them, and do their dang work.

Yeah - those old fuddy-duddy senior 70's may have a bit more behind their counsel than just crotchety old man personal opinion.

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Yeah - those old fuddy-duddy senior 70's may have a bit more behind their counsel than just crotchety old man personal opinion.

Does this include the Seventy who visited our stake talking about how wonderful the iPads are, and wished that all members would be able to have one? ;)

Some of these "old fuddy-duddy's" seem to keep up with the technology and remain just as spiritual. :)

Edited by Anddenex
time changed to technology
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I believe that youth should use printed scriptures until missionaries all over the world are teaching from electronic devices.

I think it's also nice to use leather bound books. Easier to "flip" through the scriptures that way and make notes in the margins.

The spirit in the scriptures is the same... but I admit to a different feel using my leather bound scriptures, than my Android phone.

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Reported online, quoting Elder Dallin H. Oaks,

At a recent devotional in Asia, LDS apostle Dallin Oaks was looking up scriptural passages on his iPad. He told the members gathered there that Boyd K. Packer, the senior Mormon apostle, "had made them all get iPads which has been a much more convenient and light way to carry his scriptures with him," reported a blogger at Wheat&Tares who was there.

Note - this is from a blogger, so could this be a misquote or misreport, could be.

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I've been teaching youth and children for many years now in various callings and I have seen how electronic devices disrupt the class and prevent me and those in the class from feeling the spirit. The youth, use the excuse that they are using the device for scriptures when in fact they are doing other things including playing games during class.

I believe if the youth would only use their electronics for scriptures during church and during times they set aside for scripture study and nothing on the device would interrupt them then they would feel the spirit just as much as if they were reading a physical set of scriptures.

In most cases, I would say that something pops up or the youth gets tempted to check Facebook and/or e-mail and whatever else and so do not feel the spirit as much when using the electronic scriptures.

Whereas if they were using physical scriptures then they would have to go to a computer or their electronic devices to check those things and many would not because they are already feeling the spirit and their isn't an alert that they just got an e-mail to interrupt their reading and/or studying of the scriptures.

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This reminds me of when Lexis was introduced to lawyers/law students. We had a Lexis rep come to class and show us the system. When she left, the professor told us that "no lawyer will ever use a computer" and that "You have to feel the law. You have to get in the books."

Needless to say, Lexis and Westlaw database systems pretty much dominate legal research today. When I take my classes to our law library, they see shelves that are mostly empty - because the materials needed for legal research are all online.

It's a much bigger issue than electronic vs paper. When information is electronic, the disabled have easier access. For the law books, imagine having to haul out 5-20 books when you have arthritis or are in a wheelchair or are dragging your kids to the law library with you because you can't get a sitter, etc. (I define 'disability' pretty broadly)

Each of those books has to be located and taken back to your table for use. Now compare that to a computer screen with a link to each of the cases in the books you just hauled off the shelves? How easy! There's no less legal information on the screen than there was in the book. You still have to think about what you've read in order to use it effectively. And because there are no space limitations, you can have as many links, footnotes, annotations, etc. as you want as long as the page is still readable.

The same is true as kids go to college - many of the journals are online now- not only online as an available format, but as the only format. Kids get used to finding and using electronic information. Online info eases research for everyone in a variety of contexts - and I think the same is true for the Scriptures.

I got a lovely Quad when I was baptized. It's truly beautiful, but it's huge and the print is small. I use my iPad and Asus to read the Scriptures wherever I am, to adjust the font for easier reading, etc. It's the same Scriptures and I get the Spirit just as much from the electronic version as the print version. The info hasn't changed, just the format.

I'll say this - when I first met LDS and saw all the writing in their Scriptures, it kind of turned me off. I understand why it's done, but it's hard for me to get past my natural aversion to defacing books.

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Could it simply be that the speaker had tried the electronic technology, but felt the Spirit more when he used his personal copy? My guess (outsider view, of course) is that the speaker was relaying personal experience, and offering advice, not speaking prophetically.

On the other hand, with physical scriptures, it is easier to make notes in the margins, highlight passages that have personal significance, etc. I suspect that as the electronic technology continues to improve, this advantages will disappear.

This discussion is between two great options (scriptures and scriptures, right???). No need for battle lines.

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On the other hand, with physical scriptures, it is easier to make notes in the margins, highlight passages that have personal significance, etc. I suspect that as the electronic technology continues to improve, this advantages will disappear.

Electronic tablets have already reached this point. Taking notes, highlighting, etc... are actually easier now and I also have he option to link any published Church magazine to the verse. I am able to toggle between the Ensign and scriptures within two different apps.

The only characteristic I miss, is being able to draw a line from one scripture to another scripture which tie together, however this capability is accomplished through linking but not the same way.

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Does this include the Seventy who visited our stake talking about how wonderful the iPads are, and wished that all members would be able to have one? ;)

Some of these "old fuddy-duddy's" seem to keep up with the technology and remain just as spiritual. :)

This is irrelevant, Anddenex. The Seventy is reported to have counseled that the YOUTH would get more from a physical set of scriptures than from an electronic copy. That adults, and specifically General Authorities, may not be subject to the same counsel is of no importance. Youth are specifically counseled to avoid all sexual contact, too, and by those who (we may presume) have regular sexual contact.

That said, I will probably look for opportunities to start converting to electronic scriptures going forward. It seems inexorable, and I expect I'll find benefits by doing so that may make up for (or maybe even more than make up for) what I lose by foregoing my dead tree edition.

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It is possible that the counsel was intended for that particular stake. Perhaps the youth in that stake are struggling particularly with this (or will be) and the Elder was able to discern that and provide counsel.

It may also be good general guidance to youth in the sense that perhaps a good time for the youth to take a respite from all the electronics is during scripture study?

Regards,

Finrock

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This discussion is between two great options (scriptures and scriptures, right???). No need for battle lines.

I love your comment PC!

The lesson I took from this personally is that I should turn everything else (distractions) off while reading the scriptures, this way, I can focus and listen to the spirit. I can apply this to both Electronic and Paper.

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This is irrelevant, Anddenex. The Seventy is reported to have counseled that the YOUTH would get more from a physical set of scriptures than from an electronic copy. That adults, and specifically General Authorities, may not be subject to the same counsel is of no importance. Youth are specifically counseled to avoid all sexual contact, too, and by those who (we may presume) have regular sexual contact.

I assume Vort, this is where we would disagree. When considering sexual contact even "adults" are expected and counseled, if not married, to avoid sexual contact -- by those who "have regular sexual contact."

The relevance of my statement is drawn from the OPs original post that began this thread. We have one general authority, Seventy, expressing one idea and another Seventy expressing the exact opposite of his idea.

Under correct limitations and correct bounds YOUTH who use electronics do not have a loss of the spirit because of the electronics. They have a loss of spirit due to personal worthiness, not what they use for scripture.

If a YOUTH were to get married at 16, would they still be under the bounds of not using electronics? No. Yet, they would be free to act regularly -- with their spouse (under correct guiding principles) -- in sexual contact with no loss of the spirit. Yet, we both recognize, a YOUTH who is not married and enters into sexual contact will loose the spirit.

Thus, we should spend our time in teaching children, YOUTH, correct principles of guidance in using electronics, not telling them opinions which don't help. If a youth decides to play games in class, in sacrament, etc... on his tablet instead of listening and learning to the lesson, then the youth will experience a loss of learning and spirituality. A youth however, who appropriately is guided, taught, and governs him/herself with electronics will not loose any spiritual manifestation due to the type of scriptures they use.

That said, I will probably look for opportunities to start converting to electronic scriptures going forward. It seems inexorable, and I expect I'll find benefits by doing so that may make up for (or maybe even more than make up for) what I lose by foregoing my dead tree edition.

When this change is made, you will miss some aspects of the paper scriptures (although I think everyone should have a scriptures on our "dead tree editions"), but you will love other aspects of tablets that are very beneficial.

EDIT: For example, in our lesson yesterday we received a handout from our High Council member in priesthood. I was able to type in the whole quote given by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, tied to the "oath and covenant of the priesthood."

Before, I would have to go home, cut the quote from the paper, and then use tape to put the quote in my scriptures. Now, a simple 2 minutes of typing the quote, and it is forever in my scriptures -- unless I accidentally delete it and then it isn't fun.

Edited by Anddenex
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I assume Vort, this is where we would disagree. When considering sexual contact even "adults" are expected and counseled, if not married, to avoid sexual contact -- by those who "have regular sexual contact."

The point is that context makes a difference. We tell children, youth, and adults to avoid sexual contact, but in reality we know full well there is nothing wrong with sexual contact. Rather, there is something wrong with fornication. Similarly (but to a much lesser degree), there is clearly nothing wrong with electronic scriptures, but the Spirit taught the Seventy that the youth involved would get much more out of a set of paper scriptures.

The relevance of my statement is drawn from the OPs original post that began this thread. We have one general authority, Seventy, expressing one idea and another Seventy expressing the exact opposite of his idea.

This is not true, unless I misread the original post (entirely possible, given my track record lately). The Seventy under discussion did not say to avoid electronic scriptures; rather, he said that THE YOUTH (specifically, those youth about which he was talking) would get more benefit from printed scriptures.

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This is not true, unless I misread the original post (entirely possible, given my track record lately). The Seventy under discussion did not say to avoid electronic scriptures; rather, he said that THE YOUTH (specifically, those youth about which he was talking) would get more benefit from printed scriptures.

While it is reasonable, because of the audience, that he might have said that the youth specifically won't/can't feel the spirit was well when using electronic scriptures, it isn't specified in the OP.

Edited by Dravin
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While it is reasonable, because of the audience, that he might have said that the youth specifically won't/can't feel the spirit was well when using electronic scriptures, it isn't specified in the OP.

The part in question reads as follows:

We received a new Stake Presidency yesterday, and as such, had two Elders of the 70's speak at all of the meetings. I was attending the youth meeting and one of them told the youth that they will not be able to feel of the spirit as much if they are using electronics to read the scriptures and said that they should read on physical scriptures.

I don't see any indication that he was making any sort of general pronouncement intended to apply to all Church members or even all youth. This appears to me to be saying that the Seventy counseled the youth present at that meeting in that stake to read on physical (paper) scriptures because they (the youth present at that meeting) "will not be able to feel of the spirit as much if they are using electronics to read the scriptures". I see no reason not to accept his words at face value and assume he was counseling those particular youth to use non-electronic scriptures.

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I'll admit that I only use electronic scriptures. I have them both on my phone and on my tablet. It is easier for me to read, plus I can instantly look up the references to the lessons as they are linked. My tablet is a Wi-Fi only so there are no distractions as there is no available Wi-Fi in the chapel. My son (13) uses his phone and his iPod for his scriptures. He has been told that he is not to text and his plan doesn't include data, so he can't look at Facebook either.

That being said, we have been told to follow the counsel of our leaders. Did they say that you can not use digital versions, or was it only a suggestion? If it's a suggestion, no worries, use what you like. If it was other wise, invest in a set of printed scriptures.

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Electronic tablets have already reached this point. Taking notes, highlighting, etc... are actually easier now and I also have he option to link any published Church magazine to the verse. I am able to toggle between the Ensign and scriptures within two different apps.

The only characteristic I miss, is being able to draw a line from one scripture to another scripture which tie together, however this capability is accomplished through linking but not the same way.

Perhaps for the cutting edge folk, but we of Kindle humility continue to stumble along, a couple "generations" behind. Wow...is a generation really a matter of months now??? ;)

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The part in question reads as follows:

Which is why I think it reasonable to think his comments were, "You, youth, will feel the spirit less with electronic scriptures than with physical ones." But strictly speaking any limitations we put on his comments, as they've been relayed to us, are contextual*. If he declared to an audience of youth, "The spirit cannot be felt as well with electronic scriptures as well as with physical ones." it still fits the basic description in the OP. It's a really sparse description to try and make that kind of distinction with. There are other distinctions that it's a bit sparse to try and make, like that he was declaring as doctrine that electronic scriptures are inherently spiritually inferior to physical scriptures.

For what it's worth I'm inclined to think he was giving counsel and not making doctrinal pronouncements of the nature of electronic scriptures verses physical scriptures. If youth, or even just those youth, are in general distracted by the other capabilities of their devices such counsel makes sense and wouldn't be a categorical statement of the inferiority of electronic scriptures to all peoples in all circumstances, but really I don't know what he said beyond the briefest of descriptions.

*He was addressing youth therefore his comments were restricted to only applying to the youth.

Edited by Dravin
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Electronic scriptures are a huge blessing in our house.

Do we have physical ones?

Sure.

Just not

- on the train

- in the snow

- at the beach

- in the ER

- at gymnastics

- at the picnic

- at a sleepover

- etc.

Our physical ones are almost pristine, because they rarely if ever get used. Meanwhile put electronic copies are used and referenced many times daily.

My son can, and has... Pulled out his iPhone to read (on his free kindle app) BOM at a secular sleepover (at about 3am. I have his phone set to log *** usage. At a guess from the passages he read. He was sad/ scared/ lonely... But didn't want to "wimp out" and come home).

Sounds like total loss of Spirit, right?

I'm a bibliophile. I loooove the tactile sensation of paper bound books.

But I haven't found....In my own life... that God is limited in his Grace depending on HOW the book is published/bound. Whether electronic, cheap blue paper, or finest leather & vellum... The Spirit doesn't seem to resort to any kind of snobbery or Kryptonite factors. Its only people, I find, that equate what they like best as the best way for all. I have no doubt that the elder spoke true for his own self... That he finds the Spirit more present in the volumes he's loved since childhood... But that doesn't mean that the Spirit is less present with the data files my son cherishes.

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