Worship of Jesus

[Truthseeker1]

Hi All,

I have recently becoming interested in learning about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As a Catholic, I know that if you try to learn about Catholicism from non-Catholic sources, you will often get a skewed, biased perspective. So, I am genuinely in getting to know more about the Mormon faith from people who practice it (not who criticize it).

Just a couple of questions so I can learn more (I apologize if this is easily answer elsewhere, and please point me to the appropriate articles).

1. This leads to my first (probably simple question), I feel like I am always confused (and always wrong) in how I refer to Mormon, LDS, Mormonism, etc. For me, I would say that I, as a Catholic, believe in Catholicism, and am a member of the Catholic Church (Latin Rite). What would be the equivalent appropriate terms for Mormonism?

2. Are Mormons (members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints?) supposed to worship Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit or just God the Father?

3. Is Jesus Christ a God?

4. Is the Holy Spirit a God?

I think that is all for now. Thanks for your patience in explaining these questions.

God Bless,

Mark

[Vort]

I have recently becoming interested in learning about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As a Catholic, I know that if you try to learn about Catholicism from non-Catholic sources, you will often get a skewed, biased perspective. So, I am genuinely in getting to know more about the Mormon faith from people who practice it (not who criticize it).

Good for you. Compliments for your integrity.

1. This leads to my first (probably simple question), I feel like I am always confused (and always wrong) in how I refer to Mormon, LDS, Mormonism, etc. For me, I would say that I, as a Catholic, believe in Catholicism, and am a member of the Catholic Church (Latin Rite). What would be the equivalent appropriate terms for Mormonism?

Our Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sometimes that is shortened to "the LDS Church". We specifically ask not to be called "the Mormon Church", since our Church is not the church of Mormon (an ancient American prophet). Nevertheless, you will hear our Church referred to as "the Mormon Church", occasionally even by its members.

We are Saints, or if you prefer, Latter-day Saints. We are often called "Mormons", a term that acts as a sort of nickname and that we do not object to. The nickname comes from the Book of Mormon, a volume of scripture collected and edited primarily by the prophet Mormon I mentioned earlier.

2. Are Mormons (members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints?) supposed to worship Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit or just God the Father?

The easy answer is "all of the above". The more nuanced answer is that it depends on what you mean by "worship". For example, we never pray to Jesus Christ (unless he's physically standing before us); we pray to the Father, and to him only. But in the general sense of "worship" as "adoration and veneration", we do indeed worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

3. Is Jesus Christ a God?

"A God" sounds like a discrete and separable identity. This delves into areas of LDS theology not well-understood by outsiders, and often misunderstood even by "Mormons". Jesus Christ is God.

4. Is the Holy Spirit a God?

More or less the same answer as above.

Hope that was helpful.

[Truthseeker1]

Our Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sometimes that is shortened to "the LDS Church". We specifically ask not to be called "the Mormon Church", since our Church is not the church of Mormon (an ancient American prophet). Nevertheless, you will hear our Church referred to as "the Mormon Church", occasionally even by its members.

We are Saints, or if you prefer, Latter-day Saints. We are often called "Mormons", a term that acts as a sort of nickname and that we do not object to. The nickname comes from the Book of Mormon, a volume of scripture collected and edited primarily by the prophet Mormon I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for the clarification. I was not familiar with the previous prophet, Mormon. During which time period did he live (are there approximate dates)?

The easy answer is "all of the above". The more nuanced answer is that it depends on what you mean by "worship". For example, we never pray to Jesus Christ (unless he's physically standing before us); we pray to the Father, and to him only. But in the general sense of "worship" as "adoration and veneration", we do indeed worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Thanks that is helpful. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God, why do you not pray to them?

Other than Jesus and the Holy Spirit, are there are other beings that Mormons worship? Mary? Adam

How does worshiping God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit fit within the Biblical command to have no other Gods before me? The Catholic answer would be that there are three persons and one God, so this does not violate it, but my understanding is that Mormons do not accept this formulation, but hold to three separate Gods (although, your answer, which I address below may indicate differently).

How is worship of God the Father different than worship of Jesus? You say that it depends on what we mean by worship. What ways of worship would be inappropriate for Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are appropriate for God the Father?

"A God" sounds like a discrete and separable identity. This delves into areas of LDS theology not well-understood by outsiders, and often misunderstood even by "Mormons". Jesus Christ is God.

More or less the same answer as above.

Hope that was helpful.

That was helpful, although I still am a little bit confused. Would say it is inaccurate to sa that there are multiple "Gods"? My (admittedly limited) understanding was that in Mormon theology there are multiple, distinct "Gods" and that each human being can become a "God," just as God the Father progressed and became a God. "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be."

In my understanding of Mormon theology, I am separate and distinct human being from you, and we are separate and distinct beings from God. Then, at some point if we enter into relationship with God and accept Jesus Christ as our savior, we too can attain "Godhood" and become Gods, while still maintaining that we are separate, distinct beings.

It sounds, however, like you are saying that while in the human state, we are distinct and separate beings, but once we become like Gods (as God the Father did), then that distinction goes away. It sounds somewhat like some eastern religions where all of creation becomes part of one divine entity, and is no longer separate beings.

I apologize for my crude attempt at trying to understand Mormon theology (and I accept that, trying to understand the nature of God is never going to be entirely complete). I am just trying to come to understand how, both in Mormon theology, and in daily Mormon spirituality, the relationship between man and God (Gods?) is understood.

Thanks for your patient explanations!

God Bless,

Mark

[Truthseeker1]

Vort,

I don't mean to bombard you with questions all at once. But, this blog post got me wondering:

Answering the Critics: Do Mormons believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob?

Do Mormons believe that God is a physical being with a physical form that lives in a physical place in this particular universe? In other words (even if nobody know exactly where it is) is it true that God the father currently lives in our universe _____ light-years from earth, just as I live ______ miles away you?

Thanks, again.

Mark

[estradling75]

These are the scriptures that have the answer to your latest questions. While they can trigger much speculation these verses are as far as the Official Doctrine goes

Doctrine and Covenants 130: 22

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Then Abraham 3: 2-3

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

[Truthseeker1]

These are the scriptures that have the answer to your latest questions. While they can trigger much speculation these verses are as far as the Official Doctrine goes

Doctrine and Covenants 130: 22

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Then Abraham 3: 2-3

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

Thanks!

So, would it be permissible for a faithful Mormon to interpret these passages figuratively, and believe that God the Father does not actually have "dimensions" (i.e., mass, height, width), etc., and is not actually physically located within the universe (i.e., currently X light-years from earth) or is it official Church teaching that God the Father has a physical, corporeal body, and exists (resides?) in a particular place in space and time in this universe?

This leads to a somewhat related question, in Catholicism, while not necessarily an exhaustive list of the Catholic Church's teachings on everything, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a fairly in depth summary of what the Catholic Church teaches. So, while there are many Catholics who says "I don't believe in ___ teaching of the Catholic church," there is at least agreement on what the Catholic Church teaches that they are disagreeing with. Is there something comparable for Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Is there an official book approved by the Church hierarchy outlining what the LDS Church believes? Thanks.

God Bless,

Mark

[estradling75]

Thanks!

So, would it be permissible for a faithful Mormon to interpret these passages figuratively, and believe that God the Father does not actually have "dimensions" (i.e., mass, height, width), etc., and is not actually physically located within the universe (i.e., currently X light-years from earth) or is it official Church teaching that God the Father has a physical, corporeal body, and exists (resides?) in a particular place in space and time in this universe?

People can believe what they want to believe, including those who profess to believe the LDS teachings.

While there are many things we don't know about the details, trying to change the plain meaning of "as tangible as man’s" into something the exact opposite really isn't going to fly. That would go beyond figuratively interpreting to a complete reversal.

[Truthseeker1]

People can believe what they want to believe, including those who profess to believe the LDS teachings.

While there are many things we don't know about the details, trying to change the plain meaning of "as tangible as man’s" into something the exact opposite really isn't going to fly. That would go beyond figuratively interpreting to a complete reversal.

Thanks for the response. Of course, anyone says they are a Mormon (or a Catholic) can claim whatever they want. (A Catholic can claim to believe that Jesus did not really rise from the dead, but it's clear that is not what the Catholic Church teaches). I am not really interested in what "any Mormon" believes, but what is consistent with the teaching of the LDS Church (which is why I asked if there is an authoritative source, analogous to the catechism, for official LDS Church teaching).

It sounds like you are saying that official LDS church teaching is that, while we don't know where this is or what this body is like, God the Father does have a body (with dimensions) and does physically reside somewhere in this universe (X Light-years from earth). Would that be a correct understanding? Thanks.

Mark

[estradling75]

It sounds like you are saying that official LDS church teaching is that, while we don't know where this is or what this body is like, God the Father does have a body (with dimensions) and does physically reside somewhere in this universe (X Light-years from earth). Would that be a correct understanding? Thanks.

Mark

The first part is basically correct.. A body with dimensions... the second part depends on what you mean by physically... We believe there is a barrier between us and God. He can reach through but we can't get through it with out him. We can speculate as to the nature of this barrier all we want, but it basically means if we had a space ship flew to the planet nearest to Kolob (assuming such is on our side of the barrier which it might not be) the barrier at some point would stop us from entering his Presence.

[Traveler]

Thanks for the response. Of course, anyone says they are a Mormon (or a Catholic) can claim whatever they want. (A Catholic can claim to believe that Jesus did not really rise from the dead, but it's clear that is not what the Catholic Church teaches). I am not really interested in what "any Mormon" believes, but what is consistent with the teaching of the LDS Church (which is why I asked if there is an authoritative source, analogous to the catechism, for official LDS Church teaching).

It sounds like you are saying that official LDS church teaching is that, while we don't know where this is or what this body is like, God the Father does have a body (with dimensions) and does physically reside somewhere in this universe (X Light-years from earth). Would that be a correct understanding? Thanks.

Mark

Truthseeker1,

It is both LDS (Mormon) doctrine and doctrine taught in the New Testament that Jesus Christ is the best example and most complete representation of "The Father" that man has to understand G-d and the nature of G-d. I would point out that in Luke Jesus demonstrated that he was a "resurrected" being with a body of flesh and bones. In Acts before many witnesses Jesus ascended into "Heaven" with his body of flesh and bones and angels testified that he will return in the manner as he left. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and a scientist - I see no reason to believe or understand that the resurrected Christ testified of in the New Testament is currently dead and thus is limited to be only a spirit being (which Jesus said after the resurrection that he was not just a spirit but a being of flesh and bones). I am not sure why so many "Christian" churches at least indirectly teach that G-d is dead being of only spirit or ghost essence.

The Traveler

Edited March 19, 2013 by Traveler

[SteveVH]

I see no reason to believe or understand that the resurrected Christ testified of in the New Testament is currently dead and thus is limited to be only a spirit being (which Jesus said after the resurrection that he was not just a spirit but a being of flesh and bones). I am not sure why so many "Christian" churches at least indirectly teach that G-d is dead being of only spirit or ghost essence.

The Traveler

I know of no Christian church that teaches that Christ is "currently dead". And yes, we believe that Jesus will forever retain his human body, but in a glorified state. We will follow suit. Our bodies will be resurrected on the last day and joined with our spirits. We will have glorified bodies as well. They are spiritual bodies, but real bodies nevertheless.

The difference in our belifs concerns the Father. We know that Jesus is "... the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15). There are many other verses that refer to the invisible God. We find no passage in the Bible, however, that supports the notion that the Father has a physical body. Jesus was unique insofar as he assumed human flesh. But he was first God, before he became man.

Obviously this ignores what you consider to be scripture. Just wanted to make it clear that we certainly do not believe that Christ is in any way dead. He is alive. If he were not there would be no such thing as Christianity.

[Vort]

I know of no Christian church that teaches that Christ is "currently dead". And yes, we believe that Jesus will forever retain his human body, but in a glorified state. We will follow suit. Our bodies will be resurrected on the last day and joined with our spirits. We will have glorified bodies as well. They are spiritual bodies, but real bodies nevertheless.

The difference in our belifs concerns the Father. We know that Jesus is "... the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15). There are many other verses that refer to the invisible God. We find no passage in the Bible, however, that supports the notion that the Father has a physical body. Jesus was unique insofar as he assumed human flesh. But he was first God, before he became man.

Obviously this ignores what you consider to be scripture. Just wanted to make it clear that we certainly do not believe that Christ is in any way dead. He is alive. If he were not there would be no such thing as Christianity.

This is in the wrong forum. This is clearly not a general question about larger Christian belief, but about LDS doctrine. In my judgment, the mods ought to move this. Fwiw.

[Truthseeker1]

Truthseeker1,

It is both LDS (Mormon) doctrine and doctrine taught in the New Testament that Jesus Christ is the best example and most complete representation of "The Father" that man has to understand G-d and the nature of G-d. I would point out that in Luke Jesus demonstrated that he was a "resurrected" being with a body of flesh and bones. In Acts before many witnesses Jesus ascended into "Heaven" with his body of flesh and bones and angels testified that he will return in the manner as he left. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and a scientist - I see no reason to believe or understand that the resurrected Christ testified of in the New Testament is currently dead and thus is limited to be only a spirit being (which Jesus said after the resurrection that he was not just a spirit but a being of flesh and bones). I am not sure why so many "Christian" churches at least indirectly teach that G-d is dead being of only spirit or ghost essence.

The Traveler

Hi Traveler? Thanks for the response.

I have to admit, I am slightly puzzled by your last response. In previous posts (and in other reading), I have come to understand that the LDS Church teaches that Jesus Christ is not to be prayed to, while God the Father is, Jesus is not to be worshiped in the same way that God the Father is, God the Father called a counsel and Jesus was chosen as the redeemer. In other words, Mormon theology seems to strongly emphasize the distinct natures and beings of the God the Father and Jesus Christ (three God's one in purpose, but not one in being, I believe I have read somewhere).

Here, though, in response to my question about the nature of God the Father, you say that Jesus has a physical, resurrected body and is not limited to a spiritual being. I think I am confused, but since Jesus Christ and God the Father are not one in substance (as the Nicene Creed professes), is that question of whether God has a physical body different than whether Jesus does?

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum. Feel free to move if necessary!

Also, I notice that some Mormons wont write "God" but instead prefer "G_D". Is it considered disrespectful to Mormons to write out God (similar to the Jews in the Old Testament?)

Blessing,

Mark

[SteveVH]

This is in the wrong forum. This is clearly not a general question about larger Christian belief, but about LDS doctrine. In my judgment, the mods ought to move this. Fwiw.

It is only a simple response to the assertion that Christians outside of the Mormon faith somehow believe that Christ is dead. This is exactly a question concerning "larger Christian Belief". I didn't bring the subject up. I'm just trying to make sure that innacurate statements of others beliefs (including my own) do not go unanswered. I do this by giving the other side of the story. Is there a rule against clearing up misconceptions one may have about another's faith? That doesn't seem very fair to me.

Edited March 20, 2013 by StephenVH

[jerome1232]

This is in the wrong forum. This is clearly not a general question about larger Christian belief, but about LDS doctrine. In my judgment, the mods ought to move this. Fwiw.

Instead of making a rather useless post, utilize the report post function of these forums if you think a thread ought to be moved. Regardless as Stephen pointed out, he didn't bring the subject up, you did.

[Vort]

It is only a simple response to the assertion that Christians outside of the Mormon faith somehow believe that Christ is dead. This is exactly a question concerning "larger Christian Belief". I didn't bring the subject up. I'm just trying to make sure that innacurate statements of others beliefs (including my own) do not go unanswered. I do this by giving the other side of the story. Is there a rule against clearing up misconceptions one may have about another's faith? That doesn't seem very fair to me.

I was not criticizing you, Stephen. I was noting that the OP asked a question about LDS doctrinal specifics on the "Christian Beliefs Board". In context of the specific subforum, your response seemed reasonable. In my opinion, though, the thread is not about larger, non-LDS Christian doctrine, which is why I made my observation.

[SteveVH]

I was not criticizing you, Stephen. I was noting that the OP asked a question about LDS doctrinal specifics on the "Christian Beliefs Board". In context of the specific subforum, your response seemed reasonable. In my opinion, though, the thread is not about larger, non-LDS Christian doctrine, which is why I made my observation.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. :)

[Traveler]

Hi Traveler? Thanks for the response.

I have to admit, I am slightly puzzled by your last response. In previous posts (and in other reading), I have come to understand that the LDS Church teaches that Jesus Christ is not to be prayed to, while God the Father is, Jesus is not to be worshiped in the same way that God the Father is, God the Father called a counsel and Jesus was chosen as the redeemer. In other words, Mormon theology seems to strongly emphasize the distinct natures and beings of the God the Father and Jesus Christ (three God's one in purpose, but not one in being, I believe I have read somewhere).

Here, though, in response to my question about the nature of God the Father, you say that Jesus has a physical, resurrected body and is not limited to a spiritual being. I think I am confused, but since Jesus Christ and God the Father are not one in substance (as the Nicene Creed professes), is that question of whether God has a physical body different than whether Jesus does?

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum. Feel free to move if necessary!

Also, I notice that some Mormons wont write "God" but instead prefer "G_D". Is it considered disrespectful to Mormons to write out God (similar to the Jews in the Old Testament?)

Blessing,

Mark

How I spell G-d has nothing to do with LDS (Mormon doctrine) but is because in my travels I have learned that many seeking religious understanding through the internet that are not Christian view the complete spelling as taking G-d's name in vein - I have modified my spelling in part as a personal service to them.

Concerning the Father and why we pray to him. It is LDS doctrine that man has fallen and is excommunicated from the Kingdom of Heaven where the Father is the supreme Suzerain or king. Because of the Fall of man we cannot worship the Father except through the mediator G-d Jesus Christ.

Thus our prayers are directed to the Father - the Suzerain of Jesus Christ and the designer of the plan of redemption and the means by which Jesus is commanded and directed. What is missing from your understanding is that our prayers that are addressed to the Father are given only through Jesus Christ (the only mediator with the Father) and in his sacred name.

The Traveler