Trying to understand lesson re: Priesthood today.

[Anddenex]

Your second quote of me I erased when you were responding and not after your post but I agree that faith is required to perform miracles. I guess I am just saying that women who have faith can lay their hands on their children and heal them.

I think we should be careful in how we approach the term "Lay on hands" with regard to exercising faith in the power of the priesthood.

A woman, who sets up a chair, has one of her children sit in the chair, and then performs a blessing in similitude of a priesthood blessing may not be appropriate.

A woman, who holds her baby, holds her child, while she offers a prayer in exercising faith in the power of the priesthood. There is nothing wrong with this scenario. There is nothing inappropriate also for a mother who kneels by her sick child, the sick child who is in bed, and to lay her hands on the child while she prays over the child either.

According to Joseph Fielding Smith, he once shared how it would be appropriate for a woman to lay her hands on a child and provide a blessing, acting with faith in the power of the priesthood, if no other priesthood holders were available.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I remember reading about President Smith teaching about how women gave blessings as you said andenex. It was in doctrines of salvation. I thought, though, that he said women may give a blessing but it is an operation of faith, not an operation of priesthood. Women may also stand in with the husband in blessing children but it is no longer an operation of priesthood but an operation of faith. someone correct me if im wrong(its been awhile since i read it).

This is how I understand each part of the Priesthood.

Keys- The rights given to man to officiate in the work of the priesthood, whether it is ordinances, service, or other capacities. Keys are held by one individual so the one who holds the keys really become "keys" in the sense that they open the door to work of the Priesthood being done. Such as a Bishop and baptism. No one may baptize an individual unless authorized by the one who holds the keys which in this case is the Bishop. I still have authority to do so, but I am not permitted to use that aspect of the authority without the one who holds the keys allowing me to.

Authority- The right that men have to officiate in the ordinances of the Priesthood. Without this none of us may act in a way to call down the powers of heaven. more explained later.

Power- An actual eternal strength if you will. This power changes based on personal righteousness of an individual. If one is righteous then the person will have more power granted to a situation that he acts in. If one is unrighteous, then when he acts it may be as if the person had no authority. Power comes from God but personal righteousness increases the "conductivity" of the priesthood holder to allow that power to reach the situation and touch hearts or alter situations.

Blessings- The fruits of the work of the Priesthood.

So one quick point to make. So what is the Priesthood and how does it differ from just faith. Faith is a power indeed. However, any person on earth can seek blessings and call upon God through the power that is in faith. The priesthood is different in that there are specific blessings that are guarded and regulated, if you will, through priesthood. This allows order to be in the "house of God." Not everyone may baptize for remission of sins, but only those who meet conditions of repentance and then the one holding keys allows a priesthood holder, that possesses the necessary authority to baptize, to actually perform the baptism. The power of the priesthood will be manifest through the Spirit so the recipient will be clean from sin. The blessings of peace and joy and gratitude will be had.

So faith cannot give one that special blessing. It takes the priesthood and following the necessary authority to allow these important blessings but yet keep chaos out of the work.

[Vort]

Vort,

As a historian, I look at the data and try to interpret it. My view is as valid as any other.

This claim doesn't make any sense. What if your view were that Jesus was a lizard and the earth was only 45 years old? Just because you're a self-proclaimed historian doesn't make your view equally valid with all others.

There are other things that are not available online, but this should suffice to give some "authority" to my reading of the history.

It does no such thing. You made specific claims; to back them up by referencing an entire book or web site and say, "Well, now, go and read all this, and in a month come back and see if I was right" is absurd. If your claims are well-founded, surely you can pick out substantiating evidence and quote it more narrowly than to reference a book title or URL.

I think he was a very rough, backwoods character, and that it showed in how he ran the Church and territory of Utah.

I think your characterization is flawed. Brigham Young was not a rough frontier woodsman, but a man of considerable intelligence, ability, and plain-spoken New England honesty. He was a Vermonter (which shows through in his personality and conversation) and a skilled tradesman, accomplished as a carpenter and also a smithy. And despite your antipathetic portrayal of President Young as anti-woman, it was he who re-established the Relief Society in Utah.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Vort! =)

It does no such thing. You made specific claims; to back them up by referencing an entire book or web site and say, "Well, now, go and read all this, and in a month come back and see if I was right" is absurd. If your claims are well-founded, surely you can pick out substantiating evidence and quote it more narrowly than to reference a book title or URL.

I started reading the Nauvoo Relief Society Minute book after seeing this thread. I don't know what rameumptom is specifically speaking about, but I did find something that might lend support to rameumptom's assertion that the Relief Society exercised more power and authority when it was first organized then they do now, on page 28 and 29 (emphasis added):

"Mrs. [Elizabeth Davis] Durfee bore testimony to the great blessing she received when administered to after the close of the last meeting, by Prest. E. Smith & Councillors Cleveland and Whitney. she said she never realized more benefit thro’ any administration— that she was heal’d, and thought the sisters had more faith than the brethren" (p. 28).

"Mrs. Sessions arose and gave the interpretation of what Councillor C. had spoken in an unknown tongue, and said that God was well pleas’d with this Society, that if we would be humble and faithful the Lord would pour out upon the members generally the gift of prophecy — that when the speaker laid her hand on the head of Sister Snow, she said that not only she should have the spirit but that all should have it also— that the speaker then address’d herself to Mother Smith saying that the prayers of father Smith were now answered upon the members of the Society— that the days of Mother S. should be prolong’d and she should meet many times with the Society, should enjoy much in the society..." (p. 29)

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

I remember reading about President Smith teaching about how women gave blessings as you said andenex. It was in doctrines of salvation. I thought, though, that he said women may give a blessing but it is an operation of faith, not an operation of priesthood. Women may also stand in with the husband in blessing children but it is no longer an operation of priesthood but an operation of faith. someone correct me if im wrong(its been awhile since i read it).

Correct, I may not have been clear, however that is what I was expressing. When a woman lays her hands it is not accomplished by authority of the priesthood, but by the power of the priesthood, through the individual woman's/mother's faith.

[Finrock]

In fact, starting on page 31 Joseph Smith attends the sixth meeting of the Relief Society and specifically addresses the concern of women laying on hands for healing and he sanctions it:

"Prest. Smith continued the subject by adverting to the commission given to the ancient apostles “Go ye into all the world” &c.— no matter who believeth; these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils &c. should follow all that believe whether male or female. He ask’d the Society if they could not see by this sweeping stroke, that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority which is confer’d on them— and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on" (p. 33).

A side note, pages 31 - 34 are fascinating. It appears on page 34 that Joseph Smith is prophesying about his death.

Regards,

Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

Correct, I may not have been clear, however that is what I was expressing. When a woman lays her hands it is not accomplished by authority of the priesthood, but by the power of the priesthood, through the individual woman's/mother's faith.

I would think (admitting I could be mistaken), that it is actually by the power of the priesthood AND even the authority of the priesthood, as the RS was organized under the priesthood, and the authority was given to them by JS. What it does NOT mean, however, is that they HAD the priesthood.

Edited March 27, 2013 by church

[Vort]

I don't know what rameumptom is specifically speaking about, but I did find something that might lend support to rameumptom's assertion that the Relief Society exercised more power and authority when it was first organized then they do now, on page 28 and 29 (emphasis added):

I think women of the early Church administering by the laying on of hands is indisputable and historically well-established. My specific problem with Ram's assertions were, as I wrote:

Your definition of the Patriarchal Priesthood does not agree with that provided by our current leaders. Your story of Emma bargaining with Brigham Young in a power struggle over Church leadership authority is not, to my knowledge, well-attested.

[Finrock]

Good evening Vort! :)

I think women of the early Church administering by the laying on of hands is indisputable and historically well-established. My specific problem with Ram's assertions were, as I wrote:

Your definition of the Patriarchal Priesthood does not agree with that provided by our current leaders. Your story of Emma bargaining with Brigham Young in a power struggle over Church leadership authority is not, to my knowledge, well-attested.

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

Finrock