Friendships w/ opposite sex

[busfeliz]

I posted awhile back on "Feeling Betrayed" because my husband had taken some budoir photos of another woman. We are currently seeing a marriage counselor and trying to work through our issues but still having a very hard time.

We are negotiating boundaries right now, which is proving to be a lot harder then expected. I really don't trust his judgement of what is appropriate and what is not. Recently he bought a calendar with pictures of cheerleaders from a local football team. By the worlds standards these photos were not pornographic, but I feel like as members of the chuch we should be held to a higher standard. The girls were wearing short skirts, tube tops, and other very revealing clothes. Am I out of line to ask him to throw it away?

We also argue about his friendships with other women. I am having a hard time with him having any interactions with other women. I realize I cannot forbid him to speak to women but at this point I have asked that he not photograph any other women and not to private message them on FaceBook, although he still texts other women. What do healthy, safe relationships with people of the opposite sex look like? Because my husband thinks I am being super controlling.

[Guest]

I think you're being completely reasonable.

I and most of my LDS friends do not have friendships with men that don't directly involve our husbands, and I certainly would not be comfortable private messaging a man I am not related to. All conversations with other men are out in the open, and I tell my husband about them.

[NeuroTypical]

busfeliz, counseling is good. Maybe it'll help him understand there's a gap between who he says he is, and who he acts like he is.

But more importantly, maybe it'll help you understand that you can't make him do or be something he doesn't want to do or be. That can be heartbreaking, but unfortunately that's how it works.

[busfeliz]

maybe it'll help you understand that you can't make him do or be something he doesn't want to do or be. That can be heartbreaking, but unfortunately that's how it works.

He says he will do anything to keep our marriage together, but then everytime I turn around he is doing something else that hurts my feelings, ie: the calender, texting other women, talking to the girl he did the budoir shoot with (he says it was on a purely professional basis, which it could have been; but I would think that he would have enough common sense to not associate with her at all even on a professional level out of respect for me.) He keeps saying, well you never said I couldn't talk to her (I'm thinking, did that really need to be said?) or you didn't tell me that I can't text women at night.

But it's a catch-22 because I can't anticipate all the stupid things he is going to do that are going to hurt me. So am I required to just make general statements like, don't text or talk to other women period. If I did that he would become very upset and say I am taking away everything and trying to control his every move. Which would be true. But I can't trust his judgement. He thinks certain conversations are perfectly ok to have while i would find them very innapropriate. And that is why we keep having issues, because he genuinely feels that he has done nothing wrong (besides the budior photoshoot without my knowledge.) Everything else he does is perfectly safe and normal to him and I am over reacting. So I know he will just hurt me again because he doesn't get it, he doesn't see anything wrong, that's why he does them.

[Guest]

It seems to me he's putting it on your plate to do all the work and taking responsibility for none of it. So you have to identify and snuff out anything that makes you unhappy. . . but when you do, he calls you controlling. Who is being controlling? He should be bending over backwards to earn your trust back.

[skippy740]

D&c 58:26

26 for behold, it is not meet that i should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

[busfeliz]

He keeps saying, "I'm trying but nothing is good enough for you." I don't think I am asking for too much. I just want my husband to take my feelings into consideration before he does things.

[MorningStar]

It would probably be reasonable if you burned the calendar, but that's just me.

[busfeliz]

My fear is that, we really just differ in our views of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate so much so that our marriage is destined to be one fight after another. Because he sees no harm in his actions until I get upset. And then he says, "oh wow that's crazy I didn't know that you would be so upset about that. Sorry, I won't do that again." But then a few days later he does something else, not the exact same thing but something along the same lines, because he doesn't see what the big deal is.

Am I making any sense?

[pam]

It would probably be reasonable if you burned the calendar, but that's just me.

Reasonable for her but just opens up another can of worms.

[busfeliz]

Reasonable for her but just opens up another can of worms.

I agree. And I inquired about the calender in a very civil manner. The rest of the story is that he had already bought this calender (way before any problems at even surfaced) previously and as a promotional thing the cheerleaders devlivered them door to door. This was right after the unauthorized budior photoshoot with another girl so things were very touchy and sensitive around our house...so what does my husband do?

Did he say no I don't want the calender anymore? No because he felt he had ever right to have that calender because there is nothing wrong with it.

Did he say, pleaso don't come over, I will just pick it up later at my convenience. No he didn't.

He told her to come over at a time when he knew I woulnd't be home, so that he wouldn't have to deal with me and my obsessive controlling nature. It just so happened that I came home from work early that day and that's when I saw her giving my husband the calendar.

We had a huge fight about it and he ripped it up and threw it away right in front of me. So a month later when I find the same calender in his tuck, I was a little upset.

Did I yell at him? No I simply asked him why he had another calendar. And told him that it really hurt my feelings that he would go out and buy another one.

But he didn't think there was anything wrong with the calendar in the first place so I know that's why he didn't have any qualms about buying another one. He wants to use it for his business...he owns a Rolling Video Game trailer and he takes his trailer to football games and sometimes the cheerleaders will sign autographs in the trailer after the game. But I don't think that should trump your wifes feelings.

[mdfxdb]

Bottom line is if you don't want him to have that then he shouldn't have it. You're his wife, sometimes even when we think our spouse is being unreasonable we do things for them to make them comfortable and happy.

Your husband knows exactly what he is doing. He accuses you of being controlling because it gives him an outlet to blame when he gets "caught". He hopes that by doing this you will back off. He needs to understand that his decisions effect not only him, but the marriage. Unless he comes to this realization you will continue to have problems. It is a selfish point of view to think that what he does has no effect on you because it's "not a big deal".

Unfortunately it is a realization he will have to come to for himself. It will require him to put the marriage first and foremost in his mind and thoughts and actions. He currently isn't there.

As far as "friends" with the opposite sex...I'm generally against it 99.9% of the time. There is no space in a marriage for those types of friendships.

Edited March 26, 2013 by mdfxdb
add'l comment

[busfeliz]

As far as "friends" with the opposite sex...I'm generally against it 99.9% of the time. There is no space in a marriage for those types of friendships.

I agree. But he does not. So where do we go from there? Either he gives up the female friends and is unhappy and hard to live with or I say ok have female friends and then I am unhappy and hard to live with.

[estradling75]

I agree. But he does not. So where do we go from there? Either he gives up the female friends and is unhappy and hard to live with or I say ok have female friends and then I am unhappy and hard to live with.

Either you remain unhappy... Or he matures... Or you work out a compromise.

If you go compromise I would suggest total transparency... If he wants to text and chat and other wise communicate with other women offer him a deal. Tell he can only do so if you have full access to everything. All passwords, all logs and access when ever you feel like.

If it is harmless like he says the total transparency should not be a big deal. However I would expect (and I would suspect that you do to) that the idea of you knowing exactly what he is doing would put a big old damper on anything he does.

[StrawberryFields]

Bottom line, he does not respect you. Some therapists would tell you to detach yourself from him each time he does something to hurt you. Carry on like nothing is wrong, but you have your own hobby you are involved with. We can not change the behavior of another, only we can change the way in which we react to their behavior.

I'm sorry, you have to deal with that.

You might have mentioned it but how long have you been married?

[mdfxdb]

I don't suggest compromise. Compromise almost never works in that often times both parties are not happy. You need to come to an arrangement on this where you are both happy. Is this divorce worthy stuff? I don't know, but you can either live with it or you can't.

He has to be mature enough to realize this is hurting you. What will transparancy accomplish? If he has something to hide, he will hide it.

His attitude on this is just part of a larger issue in your relationship. There is a very wide gap between professional correspondence (I remember your previous thread on him wanting to be a pro photog) and "friends".

[The Folk Prophet]

Just my opinion as a guy. Every interaction he has with members of the opposite sex should be absolutely and fully with your knowledge, approval, and if possible, presence.

The calendar is inappropriate and he shouldn't have it whether you approve or not.

You cannot compromise your feelings and your standards. But you can be patient, long-suffering, kind, etc.. You should ALWAYS tell him how you feel. But you should do your best to do so without jealousy, anger, frustration, etc...

It is not your job to change him, per se. But it is your right to tell him how you feel in all things. But you need to tell him. Don't expect him to just know.

I know it's a catch 22. But as you should know, if you don't, guys are stupid. You need to be consistent and persevere with as much fairness and understanding as you can, but without compromising right and wrong.

Shooting a "boudoir" of a woman who is not your wife = wrong

Having a calendar of cheerleaders = wrong

Meeting/communicating with other women - depends on the context and honesty to you about it

But you can't necessarily take a hard line, burn the calendar, spying, angry approach. That is never a solution for anything. Patience, love, meekness, prayer, faith, hope, long-suffering, etc... But always resolute!!

That's my take, for what it's worth.

[estradling75]

I don't suggest compromise. Compromise almost never works in that often times both parties are not happy. You need to come to an arrangement on this where you are both happy. Is this divorce worthy stuff? I don't know, but you can either live with it or you can't.

I wouldn't expect the compromise to work... I would expect the compromise to either wake him up or cut him off at the knees.

He thinks she is being irrational... So she gives him a totally rational plan. He complains he 'didn't know' so shes tell directly what is and is not expected in the plan.

This leads to him complying and the interaction with the other females losing any illicit appeal and her acquiring facts on his behavior which she can further use to define what is acceptable thus helping him wake up and gain the understanding he needs.

Or he will try to hide, but that can only hold for so long if she is suppose to have complete access, she will find it eventually and when she does, he will not have any defense because he knew and agreed. He may bluster and rage and throw accusations at her. But then she will know that what ever it is that he gets from them is more important to him then her or their marriage and she can act on that.

[MorningStar]

I would positively explode if my husband were doing these things. There would be no compromise. We compromise on household duties, who has the remote control, etc. We don't compromise when it comes to immoral things in our home or having inappropriate conversations/photo sessions/visits from people who stop by in secret.

[bytor2112]

We compromise on household duties, who has the remote control,

That's where I would have to draw the line....

Edited March 27, 2013 by bytor2112

[hbrdba]

Standards and Relationships work great, but when standards and relationships are in conflict you have a choice to make.

Do I hold on to the relationship or the standard. Either will result in pain. If you hold to the relationship with this behavior you will have a never ending gut ache, just like you have now, did I say, never ending gut ache! If you hod to your standard, you will have a gut ache, but it will not be for ever.

Your standard will always attract the relationships you want in life. Is it your standard to put up with his behavior? No! you have a different standard because you have concerns. Your relationship is headed for a disaster!

YOU HAVE TO CHOSE BETWEEN THE TWO. Will you hold to the standard or the relationship. By following this policy it will create the following on both sides: Commitment, accountability, responsibility, integrity, and self respect. That's on both side, it's not one sided.

DUMP HIM, create your list of standards. If you hold on to this relationship your heart ache will remain with you.

[alison_143]

In an Institute class I attended, the teacher told us about a time when he lived about an hour away from the Stake Center. He had a calling that required him to go to that building on a weekly basis for meetings. There was another female member who lived nearby to him who also had a calling that took her to the Stake Center on the same day every week. They discussed making the hour long drive together each week, but after some thought decided it would be best not to drive together because it would just put them into a situation where there they could develop a more intimate relationship. They both wanted to respect their spouses and remain free of temptation. There wasn't any romantic feelings between the two, they just didn't want to put themselves in a situation where it could become anything more than plutonic.

The lesson I learned is to avoid any sort of interaction with the opposite sex that could be misconstrued as unfaithful. Do I want others to see me alone with a man that isn't my husband? If I do, what would those people think I was doing with that man? Would it look like I was being unfaithful? In essence, you avoid the appearance of evil. There is no reason to go hang out alone with another person of the opposite sex if you aren't married to them. That just opens the door to being able to develop more intimate feelings for that person who isn't your spouse.

Your husband needs to understand that even if he isn't DOING anything wrong, it still LOOKS bad, and it's putting him in a position to develop feelings for other women that he should only have for you, his wife. He shouldn't be looking at pictures of women in clothes that are meant to be provocative. They aren't pictures of his wife either! It's not okay, and he should value your relationship and marriage more than that.

[pam]

Very well said Alison. :)

[gree0232]

I wouldn't expect the compromise to work... I would expect the compromise to either wake him up or cut him off at the knees.

He thinks she is being irrational... So she gives him a totally rational plan. He complains he 'didn't know' so shes tell directly what is and is not expected in the plan.

This leads to him complying and the interaction with the other females losing any illicit appeal and her acquiring facts on his behavior which she can further use to define what is acceptable thus helping him wake up and gain the understanding he needs.

Or he will try to hide, but that can only hold for so long if she is suppose to have complete access, she will find it eventually and when she does, he will not have any defense because he knew and agreed. He may bluster and rage and throw accusations at her. But then she will know that what ever it is that he gets from them is more important to him then her or their marriage and she can act on that.

There is an awful lot of speculation here, and really, its inappropriate. There are two people in a marriage, and I would bet pennies to dollars that the husband in this one has a point of view.

There is a point to being blissfully ignorant, and I will tell you pointedly as I have read this, that describing someone's actions as 'stupid' isn't helping, any more than is hanging a potentially disrespectful Calendar up.

My advice here is to talk to to your Bishop. What I see most clearly here is a lot of frustration on both sides, and a communication gap. The Bishop is an honest broker, he can talk to both sides separately about issues with 'spiritual aspects and standards', but these appear to be secondary issues to good old fashioned communication problems.

If you haven't done so yet, start with the love language test:

Home | The 5 Love Languages®

Focus on affirming one another rather that fault finding. (Studies indicate that we should generally have 5-6 positive things to say for every negative - which can be very hard when we are frustrated and hurt. Nevertheless, the old adage of catching more flies with honey than vinegar does apply)

There are also personality tests, that not only reveal things about ourselves and expectations but will also help us identify things that are going ... awry as we go with what we know and unintentionally wind up walking all over people. We sometimes do not see the effects of what we have always done ... it can be eye opening for both of you.

Learning styles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are also learning styles. If you are asking him to change some of his actions, I do not recommend the Pavlovian approach to behavioral modification. He is your husband, and I have no doubt that he loves you. But there may be things both you and he can do to better communicate what you expect him to learn and how BEST to go about helping him learn that lesson.

Its work, there is no doubt about it, but IMHO, its about finding the right tools to be effective. If you are trying to turn a screw with a rock ... its bound to be frustrating, and analogous in this situation, it may be best to stop and find a screw driver to turn that screw, rather than dropping thr rock and just banging the screw with your head in frustration.

Take a breather ... let it rest for a bit. Study what you both have been doing. Try something different with a fresh perspective and cooler emotions and see if t works.

I will also offer one last word of caution. Beware of taking the issues to 'friends' - or, if you do so, understand that the 'advice' you get is bound to be more about coping rather than problem solving. They are your friends and they will support you. There is, however, a springboard effect where your friends tell you that you are right, and the resulting communication becomes ... intransigent as both sides turn to their friends ... who tell them they are right, and then the discussion becomes about how friends view 'you' as right and the actual issues gets buried.

Ensure that the source you turn to is objective, and ensure he is doing the same.

Finally, I got one very good piece of relationship advice from a member regarding relationships.

"Learn to say you are sorry."

It truly costs nothing, save pride, and its benefits are amazing. It comes down to a simple question as to your goal: do you want to be right, or happy?

Edited March 27, 2013 by gree0232

[estradling75]

There is an awful lot of speculation here, and really, its inappropriate. There are two people in a marriage, and I would bet pennies to dollars that the husband in this one has a point of view.

Of course it is speculation. You have to speculate or you can never offer what people ask for in an advice forum. A handful of post is never enough to get the fullness of both sides of the story... We barely get a partial of one side. So if you think that one should not speculate then by all mean stay out of the advice forums (and really internet forums in general because that is a lot of what they are).

Meanwhile the rest of us will speculate and try to offer ideas and advice for the person requesting it. And that person (busfeliz in this case) who knows the situation much better then they can ever really express it can pick and choose what advice seems to be most meaningful for their situation. And they can choose to ignore that which they don't like or don't think is workable.