Beyond Pants

[selek]

One side effect that would be pretty unsettling and add to the pot of criticism from naysayers about our religion is that if, in-fact, the priesthood were given to women any time in the near future, it would be chalked not up to the will of our Father in Heaven, not to direct inspiration and direction to the prophet from God, but to the leaders of the church caving to social pressure.

Ironically, if we DON'T cave to the social pressure, our "stubborness" will be used as a cause célèbre to ratchet up the attacks on the Church of Christ.

For those who wish to see the Church- and with it, the Gospel of Christ- marginalized, discredited, and isolated, this is a win-win.

What confounds me is that there are so many self-professing Latter-day Saints aiding and abetting (unwittingly and not) that particular crowd.

[carlimac]

Ironically, if we DON'T cave to the social pressure, our "stubborness" will be used as a cause célèbre to ratchet up the attacks on the Church of Christ.

For those who wish to see the Church- and with it, the Gospel of Christ- marginalized, discredited, and isolated, this is a win-win.

What confounds me is that there are so many self-professing Latter-day Saints aiding and abetting (unwittingly and not) that particular crowd.

Exactly. We don't really need the negative PR. Not that what the world thinks and says about my religion affects my own testimony. But negativism toward the church can have a dampening effect on investigators who are like tender shoots coming out of the earth into the sun. Stuff like this can be the big mean boot that squashes them.

[Traveler]

I do not know why women are not ordained to the Priesthood. I have speculated on this matter many times but I have not discovered even a single reason - that makes sense to me. I have been able to conceive many good reasons why I think women should be ordained. This is a matter that I intend to enquire about until I receive understanding. However, until I have understanding, I will live by faith realizing that the priesthood is a great gift and I am not the giver of that gift - it is not mine to give or deny to anyone.

For the most part - I think it is good for anyone to desire to receive the priesthood - yes even for women. But I also realize that desiring the priesthood for reasons counter to the purposes of G-d is not a good thing. I have no problem with women asking to receive the priesthood for themselves and their daughters as well as for their husbands and sons. I have long believed that the priesthood I have been given will not profit anyone if I were to fail at my marriage - I would suggest that any women that thinks there may be some profit to having the priesthood in a failed marriage is making a grave mistake. I also believe that in any failed marriage that involves the priesthood (especially a temple marriage) that there is greater condemnation to those that hold the priesthood than for those that do not.

I believe it is an exceptional lady that desires to take upon themselves greater responsibility (and blame) in marriage and not hold their man primarily accountable and responsible for his priesthood roll in the covenant. I have discussed this possibility with my wife - but she desires no part of it - in fact it seem to me that my wife is very determined to keep priesthood responsibility centered on me - but for the record, I am willing to share more of that responsibility if it ever become an issue in our home. After all we are partners - but at the same time - especially for my wife, it is an honor to take on extra priesthood responsibilities for such a wonderful lady.

The Traveler

[sarah331]

I wonder if my views would be different if we had a priesthood in our marriage. My husband is inactive, only received the Aaronic.

ETA I don't mean that I wouldn't think it makes sense for women to be ordained, just in terms of how I would see women in priesthood roles and the stewardship and that.

I like your points, Traveler, thanks!! :)

Edited April 4, 2013 by sarah331

[applepansy]

I do not know why women are not ordained to the Priesthood. I have speculated on this matter many times but I have not discovered even a single reason - that makes sense to me. I have been able to conceive many good reasons why I think women should be ordained. This is a matter that I intend to enquire about until I receive understanding. However, until I have understanding, I will live by faith realizing that the priesthood is a great gift and I am not the giver of that gift - it is not mine to give or deny to anyone.

For the most part - I think it is good for anyone to desire to receive the priesthood - yes even for women. But I also realize that desiring the priesthood for reasons counter to the purposes of G-d is not a good thing. I have no problem with women asking to receive the priesthood for themselves and their daughters as well as for their husbands and sons. I have long believed that the priesthood I have been given will not profit anyone if I were to fail at my marriage - I would suggest that any women that thinks there may be some profit to having the priesthood in a failed marriage is making a grave mistake. I also believe that in any failed marriage that involves the priesthood (especially a temple marriage) that there is greater condemnation to those that hold the priesthood than for those that do not.

I believe it is an exceptional lady that desires to take upon themselves greater responsibility (and blame) in marriage and not hold their man primarily accountable and responsible for his priesthood roll in the covenant. I have discussed this possibility with my wife - but she desires no part of it - in fact it seem to me that my wife is very determined to keep priesthood responsibility centered on me - but for the record, I am willing to share more of that responsibility if it ever become an issue in our home. After all we are partners - but at the same time - especially for my wife, it is an honor to take on extra priesthood responsibilities for such a wonderful lady.

The Traveler

Your wife is a smart woman. We women have enough to do without adding more.

[Aworkinprogress]

They say a womans work is never done. It's true. And they want to make it where we can hold the priesthood? No thanks. I'm very content helping run my house hold and church callings. To me, women taking on the Priesthood roles is like women taking on the NFL. It's out of place.

[Vort]

I do not know why women are not ordained to the Priesthood. I have speculated on this matter many times but I have not discovered even a single reason - that makes sense to me.

Here is a rather obvious speculation that makes perfect sense, whether or not you agree with it:

Women do not hold the Priesthood because women cannot hold the Priesthood. Holding conferred Priesthood authority and being ordained to an office is, by its very nature, a male thing. The operation of "holding the Priesthood" is only defined for men. Asking why women don't hold the Priesthood is like asking why women don't father children.

[talisyn]

One side effect that would be pretty unsettling and add to the pot of criticism from naysayers about our religion is that if, in-fact, the priesthood were given to women any time in the near future, it would be chalked not up to the will of our Father in Heaven, not to direct inspiration and direction to the prophet from God, but to the leaders of the church caving to social pressure. That would destroy more testimonies and cause more damage than anything positive to come from it. That's one reason why I don't think it will happen. I think there are too many (women especially, but men also) in the church and ousiders who aren't ready for it. Just my opinion.

I was very little in 1978. Was this said a lot before black men regained the priesthood?

[selek]

I was very little in 1978. Was this said a lot before black men regained the priesthood?

I'm not sure what you're asking herre, Talisyn.

As has already been pointed out at least once, this is an apples-and-oranges comparison (at best) because it was always acknowledged that the "Ban" was a temporary thing.

Latter-day Saints (as a whole) lived in anticipation of the Ban being lifted.

Women agitating for priesthood authority have no such assurance.

Moreover, this very line of attack- that the Church is racist because they only gave "blacks" the Priesthood because of social pressure- is used every day of the week.

The demagoguing is identical, except that those with an axe to grind substitute the word "sexist" for "racist".

Neither understands from whence Priesthood authority is derived, and both wish to use that ignorance as a weapon against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited April 5, 2013 by selek

[pam]

I have never had anything shake my testimony. Never. But allowing women to have the Priesthood after a campaign for it from a group just might. I would have doubts as to whether it came from God or whether the pressure was indeed felt by those within the church.

[pam]

I am going to be anxiously waiting to see if there are any talks given in General Conference regarding the roles of the genders and how they complement each other.

[mirkwood]

I will be surprised if this is not a topic, or at least brought up in GC.

[selek]

I am going to be anxiously waiting to see if there are any talks given in General Conference regarding the roles of the genders and how they complement each other.

I'm not holding my breath. I doubt this agitation merits such a response (and would in itself be a concession to the agitators).

Besides, Sister Elaine S. Dalton (Young Women's General Presiden) has already

to this manufactured crisis.

By the same token, this would be the most logical venue and approach for the Brethren to take.

Instead of trying to dissuade the strident from the beatific visions of "what if", they would appeal to the faithful on the grounds of "the wisdom of what the Lord has set forth".

Ideologues and zealots are seldom satisfied by having their fantasies doused by the cold bucket of reality, but the faithful can take pride in what the Lord's wisdom has preserved.

The LDS Church is still one of the fastest growing in the nation, if not the world.

Our people are healthier, longer-lived, and when surveyed, generally happier than the population at large.

A Temple marriage has a radically lower failure rate than anything comparable in the Gentile world.

Our children tend to have higher religious attendance rates, higher graduation rates, more college degrees, and a better awareness of the world in general than their peers.

Do we still have work to do? Are there things we can do better?

Absolutely- on both counts.

But we will not accomplish them by aping the pride of Babylon and adopting the customs and mores of those who deny God's word, will, and wisdom.

Edited April 5, 2013 by selek

[mikbone]

What would happen if women got the priesthood?

Elders quorum lessons would probably be a bit better prepared. We would probably have to sing more than one verse of each song though...

Or, Maybe we could go to a 2 hour meeting block!

We could also get rid of YW/YM.

Go ahead and revoke The Family: a proclamation to the world.

Heck, Elders and Sisters could be mission companions.

This is gonna be great for the church!!!!

Edited April 5, 2013 by mikbone

[Guest]

The agitation over Women holding the Priesthood is the same in my mind as 2 Men or 2 Women getting Married.

This is the type of "Equality" that has ZERO understanding of the role of gender in God's society. If God intended Man to be replaceable by Woman and Woman to be replaceable by Man, then what is the purpose of creating both? It is the law of nature that you need both genders for the species to survive and since time immemorial, male and female have different strengths and weaknesses tied to their genders. It is this type of cooperation that brings a good foundation for families and the formula that God set up for humankind.

The agitation for Ordination of Women is simply woman's desire to elevate self over the commandment of Love.

"I feel irrelevant", "I am not getting what I deserve", "I don't feel loved", "Nobody listens to ME", "I want to love him not her". All this self-aggrandizing is contrary to Jesus Christ's teaching of what Love is. And it is these I-ME-MINE statements that break families. What does Jesus Christ tell us Love is? Jesus Christ told his disciples Love One Another and knelt down infront of them and washed their feet. THAT is what love is. And Pope Francis showed us the perfect example of it. One does not need the priesthood to be able to kneel down and wash people's feet. One does not need an announcement in the Salt Lake City Tribune to do it. It is this level of humility that is sadly lacking in each and every one of us.

Edited April 5, 2013 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

I was very little in 1978. Was this said a lot before black men regained the priesthood?

By making that argument, haven't you pretty much proved Carlimac right? Doesn't that kind of assertion boil down to a sort of "We effected change by social agitation before; we can do it again?" mentality?

[Traveler]

Here is a rather obvious speculation that makes perfect sense, whether or not you agree with it:

Women do not hold the Priesthood because women cannot hold the Priesthood. Holding conferred Priesthood authority and being ordained to an office is, by its very nature, a male thing. The operation of "holding the Priesthood" is only defined for men. Asking why women don't hold the Priesthood is like asking why women don't father children.

Help me a little with how this makes sense - are you implying that any male that is incapable of fathering children should not be ordained to the priesthood? Sometimes I am a little dense and do not get it - are you being sarcastic in your obvious speculation that makes perfect sense?

Just as a side note; there is a rather interesting and remarkable fellow in my ward that would be properly described as “slow minded”. He is ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood - passes the sacrament and is an excellent home teaching companion. He may be physically capable of fathering children but he certainly is not capable of being a father - at times yes - he is a rather caring and loving individual but incapable of handling even very small levels of stress. He also has a hard time wearing a coat on very cold winter days.

Any logical reason that makes sense to exclude any demographic from the priesthood most certainly ought to apply to every individual that does hold the priesthood?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I have never had anything shake my testimony. Never. But allowing women to have the Priesthood after a campaign for it from a group just might. I would have doubts as to whether it came from God or whether the pressure was indeed felt by those within the church.

I do not want to seem critical but I thought a testimony has more to do with what is actually right and wrong (good and evil) especially what is G-d's will as we come to an understanding and knowledge of such things.

I cannot count the number of times I have been shamed in thinking I understood something correctly only to come to the realization through someone obviously not as smart and capable as I - that I was perusing a wrong course. When teaching primary I was astonished with how often this occurred. Especially considering how seldom it occurred when teaching the High Priest?

The Traveler

[annewandering]

Talisyn, before the priesthood was given to black people there was a lot of agitation for it to be done but mostly from out of the church although there was some in the church as well.

Many people prayed for that day to come. Most of us probably didnt think it would happen before Christ returned. I know that I hoped it would happen but figured it would happen when it happened and not by the church giving into pressure.

When it did happen lots thought that many would leave the church since they assumed we were racists.

When it comes down to it, if we believe that Christ is the head of the church then what He decides is not going to cause us to lose our testimony. If we dont really have a testimony then we will be swayed by current popular thought on what should be done.

[girlygirl]

Wow lots of comments here coming from all angles. Don't want to fan the flame anymore on this , but i have looked alot into what these guys have to say and their points make perfect sense to me.

Are we not a church founded on continuing revelation? Did Joseph Smith not go to pray to God the father instead of accepting churches that people already thought were true? After which it was the right time for the gospel to be restored on earth?

Much like the blacks being allowed the priesthood back in the 70's after recieved revelation, after previously being denied, these ladies are asking their leaders to prayfully ask if perhaps women can have the priesthood restored to them again as was in Josephs time.

I dont see why the need for all the judgement when continuing revelations as we are ready for it is what sets our church apart from others.

Edit: I see I have already recieved some quick responses in a span of five minutes. I don't comment on this board often and don't wish to argue over petty statements. All I can say is I try to love and understand everyone. This is something important to these ladies, and they are asking of their leaders to prayfully consider having them recieve the priesthood much like people probably did before the blacks were not allowed priesthood. Isn't our motto line upon line, precept upon precept? From knowing how Joseph Smith restored the gospel he didn't receive everything all at once, and we are still receiving Revelation from the Lord even to this day. I don't see why there is so much mud slinging to followers of Christ asking for something that is important to them. But perhaps I just try to give people the benefit of a doubt. I just don't feel threatened by this and I am sure the leaders do not either.

Edited April 5, 2013 by girlygirl

[annewandering]

We didnt have the priesthood for it to be restored to us. We have always been able to act in certain ordinances but that does not mean we ever held the priesthood.

[applepansy]

Wow lots of comments here coming from all angles. Don't want to fan the flame anymore on this , but i have looked alot into what these guys have to say and their points make perfect sense to me.

Are we not a church founded on continuing revelation? Did Joseph Smith not go to pray to God the father instead of accepting churches that people already thought were true? After which it was the right time for the gospel to be restored on earth?

Much like the blacks being allowed the priesthood back in the 70's after recieved revelation, after previously being denied, these ladies are asking their leaders to prayfully ask if perhaps women can have the priesthood restored to them again as was in Josephs time.

I dont see why the need for all the judgement when continuing revelations as we are ready for it is what sets our church apart from others.

Let's assume that the prophet gets up in GC and says "Heavenly Father says women shouldn't hold the priesthood." Do you really thing this group of women are going to stop campaigning against the church? I don't think they will. I think if anything is said at GC it will just fan the flames.

[annewandering]

Let's assume that the prophet gets up in GC and says "Heavenly Father says women shouldn't hold the priesthood." Do you really thing this group of women are going to stop campaigning against the church? I don't think they will. I think if anything is said at GC it will just fan the flames.

The talks are prepared long before conference anyway.

[applepansy]

The talks are prepared long before conference anyway.

Most of the talks. I've heard GC when the prophet"goes off script." :)

[Gwen]

If the subject is brought up it shouldn't automatically mean they went off script. You don't think the lord didn't know this was going to happen months ago, he couldn't have inspired an appropriate talk before this ever came up?