the City Creek controversy


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I love that mall, and now I love it more, since I know the church helped with it!! :)

I'm going with some girlfriends in May, just to have a no-kids weekend and go to the temple and walk around/shop at the mall. I can't wait!

I admit that I don't really get it. It's just a mall, right? What's the big deal about going to visit it? Just the proximity to other stuff?

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Have you been there? The grounds are beautiful. My friends are shoppers, I am not. So the fact that it's so beautiful there makes me excited to go back. :) Last time was with hubby and the kids so we just rushed through. I'm also interested to look through the shops they have that we don't have here.

While I was there, I also felt kind of an exhilarating sense of prophecy fulfilled, if you'll bear with me. I thought a lot of what President Young's vision of what all that high desert could be might be, and of the early Saints' goal of industry and prosperity. It really is an extraordinarily beautiful mall and area, and to think it all used to be sagebrush. . .

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Oh man, I love Godiva's drinks. I'm really glad though, that a See's recently opened at my local mall, because I don't much like Godiva's chocolates, and that was our only chocolate store otherwise.

I don't have Godiva in the stat of Idaho. I go to Utah for them they are THAT good.

But yes I do like see's I can seem to find them anywhere.....

BUt I also get a free chocolate a month with the Godiva club thingy.

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There is one view I especially love, of the Salt Lake Temple. You can see 3 of the spires rising up over a beautiful series of fountains. The water features alone are worth going to see.

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There is one view I especially love, of the Salt Lake Temple. You can see 3 of the spires rising up over a beautiful series of fountains. The water features alone are worth going to see.

I have to agree- the water course and fountains are fabulous, as is the fact that the complex is pet-friendly.

Of course, when I go, I go more to "people-watch" than to shop.

The food court isn't bad, and some of the specialty food shops are excellent- but the greatest distinction is the atmosphere.

I used to work security downtown, and crossed through Temple Square every night at the end of my shift.

Before the CCM was built, Temple Square was an island of peace, beauty, and calm in a dark, seedy, and warren-like block of streets. The entire area had a tired, tattered feeling to it- and many people were less than comfortable walking the streets surrounding Temple Square.

More than once, I quietly escorted women to their destinations to make sure they arrived safely (one of the joys of wearing a uniform is that perfect strangers turn to you for help and protection).

By contrast, the area is now relatively bright (even after closing) and there's more of an air of community and vibrancy that has long been missing.

It's a subtle difference- but it's one that many people have noticed.

Walking the area in the evenings, you see families on the streets, couples out for a date, and citizens enjoying their city, instead of just dodging the usual crowd of pan-handlers, vagrants, and other ne'er-do-wells.

Yes, there are a lot of political dissidents who deeply resent the mall and what it represents (most especially the Church's involvement).

Yes, there are the usual crowd who got their britches chapped because they are expected to adhere to certain minimal standards of dress, comportment, and conduct.

Too bad.

If you wanna make a fool of yourself, do it down at the local S&M bar- City Creek (and downtown Salt Lake) belongs to folks who aren't afraid of daylight, running water, or bathing on a regular basis.

Edited by selek
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Have you been there? The grounds are beautiful. My friends are shoppers, I am not. So the fact that it's so beautiful there makes me excited to go back. :) Last time was with hubby and the kids so we just rushed through. I'm also interested to look through the shops they have that we don't have here.

I haven't been there. I haven't been to Utah since October 2010 (was that it, Pam?), and now that my sister moved back home, I have no family there to visit. But I can understand if you're going to Utah already, that you'd make a stop there. I just don't really "get" putting a mall on your "list of things I'm doing while visiting family" or whatever. But yay for just girl time!!

While I was there, I also felt kind of an exhilarating sense of prophecy fulfilled, if you'll bear with me. I thought a lot of what President Young's vision of what all that high desert could be might be, and of the early Saints' goal of industry and prosperity. It really is an extraordinarily beautiful mall and area, and to think it all used to be sagebrush. . .

I can see that. I hadn't thought of it, but I definitely can appreciate it.

I don't have Godiva in the stat of Idaho. I go to Utah for them they are THAT good.

But yes I do like see's I can seem to find them anywhere.....

BUt I also get a free chocolate a month with the Godiva club thingy.

I get the free Godiva truffle, too. The only one I like is the roasted almond. I live in Ohio, so See's is barely moving our direction. The one store to open up in the greater area of where I live happened to be at the mall that's only 10 minutes from my house, though -- woohoo!!

I have to agree- the water course and fountains are fabulous, as is the fact that the complex is pet-friendly.

Like, inside, or just the outdoor grounds?

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Like, inside, or just the outdoor grounds?

The designers deliberately blurred the lines between "inside" and "outside".

If memory serves, there are four open courtyards (exposed to the wind and sun), and several glassed-in concourses with extensive landscaping and pockets of plants and grass.

Pets are welcome in all of these areas.

Specific stores within the complex are more particular (especially those that serve food), but pets are welcome in all of the "common" areas of the mall.

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For some reason the inside outside question reminds me of a story. When I was a teenager, my mom's friend came to visit and brought her own daughter and a friend of her daughter. (I lived in San Diego) We dropped the two teens off at the mall. Upon returning a couple hours later to pick them up and asking if they had fun, they seemed a bit disappointed. They said the whole time they were there they only went to the outside stores. Nobody told them how to get into the mall no matter who they asked. They thought San Diego people were rude. People kept telling them they were at the mall and they kept saying, yes, we know we are AT the mall we want to know how to get IN the mall! :D

(For those that don't get it, almost all the malls in San Diego are outside malls. Especially back them f were IN the mall. The girls were in the mall but didn't enjoy it because they spent the whole time trying to find out how to get in........okay, maybe you had to be there and it isn't as funny once I got this whole thing typed, but I am posting it anyways, since I typed it all out!)

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For some reason the inside outside question reminds me of a story. When I was a teenager, my mom's friend came to visit and brought her own daughter and a friend of her daughter. (I lived in San Diego) We dropped the two teens off at the mall. Upon returning a couple hours later to pick them up and asking if they had fun, they seemed a bit disappointed. They said the whole time they were there they only went to the outside stores. Nobody told them how to get into the mall no matter who they asked. They thought San Diego people were rude. People kept telling them they were at the mall and they kept saying, yes, we know we are AT the mall we want to know how to get IN the mall! :D

(For those that don't get it, almost all the malls in San Diego are outside malls. Especially back them f were IN the mall. The girls were in the mall but didn't enjoy it because they spent the whole time trying to find out how to get in........okay, maybe you had to be there and it isn't as funny once I got this whole thing typed, but I am posting it anyways, since I typed it all out!)

My parents live in rural New England. The nearest traditional mall to them is almost an hour away. There are, however, two sets of outlets within about 20 minutes of their home. Driving along the freeway (which is referred to as a highway, actually), you see exit signs for "mall" for the outlets. It makes me laugh because I grew up in Orange County and Portland, and only knew malls -- anything else had a qualifier: strip mall, outlet mall, etc.

Jennarator, there has to be a metaphor in there somewhere.

Are you sure there's not a metaphor at there somewhere?

Edited by Wingnut
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I don't think strip malls are malls at all. They are just a place to go if you happen to be around there. I don't like them at all.

I am speaking of a full, even upscale, mall in San Diego. Thee is no inside the mall it is all outside, it's not a outlet mall either. Most malls in San Diego are outside. In fact all of them all the two indoor ones are outside the cit limits.

Edited by Jennarator
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I admit that I don't really get it. It's just a mall, right? What's the big deal about going to visit it? Just the proximity to other stuff?

"Just a mall" is the that's-so-five-minutes-ago concept of a shopping center with a few anchor stores (like Macy's or Dillards) and several specialty shops. That's an old-fashioned concept now.

In the "modern era" they don't build malls anymore they build Lifestyle Centers. These environments go way beyond shopping and into the complete leisure experience. That is - a place to shop, a place to dine, a place for overnight stays, a place for concerts or activities, a place to picnic, a place to hike, jog, do some yoga, or a place to just sit and enjoy either serenity or hussle-and-bussle whichever is your preference. These places are usually defined by its unique architecture that accomodates all these varied types of leisure activities.

Singapore has a Lifestyle Center (a.k.a. the mall) that is incorporated into the Changi Airport. It is one of the most amazing places I've ever seen. Instead of sitting at the terminal waiting for your connecting flight, you can go through the mall (no visa or tourist permits required - you don't even have to go through customs) where there's the shopping centers that range from the el-cheapo souvenir shops to the i-can't-possibly-afford-a-piece-of-gum-here types. If shopping is not your thing, then there's a ginormous pool and spa, a super peaceful nature trail, amazing gardens, entertainment deck (has arcade games, movie theaters including a 4D one, a room where you can watch MTV from this ginormous screen, etc.), fitness centers, concert halls, etc. They even have a place where they have ultra thick recliners that is as comfortable as a bed in a 5-star hotel in a serene environment so you can take a nap. And they also have these super giant slides - reaches about 4-5 stories high... Anyway, it's a super amazing place.

I've never been to Dubai mall but I saw it on TV and that Lifestyle Center is just awesome! It's on my list of places to visit.

Anyway, City Creek is designed like one of these Lifestyle Centers, so yes, it's not "just a mall". It's a destination.

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Three billion dollars and counting would feed and teach an amazing amount of people. The Temple Square complex is of vast wealth and I am not surprised church finances are private, considering that an alarming amount of the investments seem to be for profit. You are not alone in being troubled by this matter.

As for being chastised for your speculation, ignore those as sometimes those type of people are so busy looking at the clouds that they run into the next tree and declare its a trial of faith, given to them specifically. To question the position of the tree in regards to them is considered heresy.

When I visited Utah and wandered Temple Square, I was struck at how similar the complex was developing and found it troubling that it had remarkable similarities to The Vatican complex. The most humble person I found to talk to there, was Ray, the homeless guy from Chicago. He was sitting on the corner across from the Conference Centre and warned me about the other beggars and their lies.

I do give much credit to the welfare program and other such charities, however, I think questions should be asked about such matters. Would Jesus prefer us to spend 3 billion dollars and counting, or feed and teach people? There is nothing directly sold on the grounds, but it is remarkable how close such facilities are to the grounds. The creep of commerce is dangerous to all who consider themselves charitable.

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Come now, let's not be melodramatic.

Size of Temple Square: 10 acres (20 if you count the Conference Center; 35 if you count the next two blocks to the east).

Size of Vatican: 110 acres.

Size of temple mount in Jesus' day (which He expressly condoned as the site of His Father's House): 36 acres.

Would Jesus prefer us to spend 3 billion dollars and counting, or feed and teach people?

Not "and counting". The project's done.

Would Jesus prefer us to put three billion dollars into the local economy (which provided short-term food and clothing to thousands of workers) and, for our investment, have structures that will continue to generate jobs and (admittedly, probably modest) income for future humanitarian endeavors beyond any of our lifetimes? Or would He rather we just give it all away now, and start over from scratch next year?

Does Christianity mean you must make economically bone-headed decisions?

If three billion dollars that was sitting in the Church's coffers went to workers and was then used to feed, clothe, and house the families of those workers--what's so bad about the fact that the Church wound up with a mall at the end of that process?

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As for being chastised for your speculation, ignore those as sometimes those type of people are so busy looking at the clouds that they run into the next tree and declare its a trial of faith, given to them specifically. To question the position of the tree in regards to them is considered heresy.

What you meant to say, is those of us who are actually looking at the clouds; looking at the trees, recognizing their are trees in the forest, we dodge them knowing it is just another tree in God's kingdom.

The Mall is just another magnificent construction from the Church. Others of us look at and think, wonderful, and move on trusting in the Lord and his guidance over his prophets. We move one.

Would Jesus have us beautify the earth in all manner of organizations? Yes, he would have us do all things which edify and uplift. If people are concerned about the Church building a mall they are going to have a hard time living in Zion when it is officially built. If you have read any of the prophecies regarding the city of Zion, the mall will be but a small glimpse of what beauty will be held in Zion.

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Three billion dollars and counting would feed and teach an amazing amount of people.

I've found that you can find this sort of criticism leveled against any religious figure or organization. "You should use your resources the way I think they should be used."

I've even seen this line of thinking leveled against Mother Theresea. When she died, she owned one pair of shoes, two simple robes, and a bucket. And still people were all ticked off at how she used her voice and sway and popularity, what she advocated, and how she should have advocated differently or better.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of armchair quarterbacking (I'm doing it right now), but I try rarely rise to the level of getting disturbed when people who aren't me, having resources that aren't mine, make choices I think I wouldn't make if I was in their shoes. The tongue-clicking and finger-wagging and stern-troubled-looks I leave to those who seem invariably to hold anti-capitalist or anti-business beliefs.

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Three billion dollars and counting would feed and teach an amazing amount of people.

Matthew 26:11 (NASB)

"For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me.

How many people have jobs because of this mall instead of being on the dole?

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