More then faith

[Guest Doctrine]

I have a question and would like some in put.

Faith is to know something is true without proof.

Well what do you call it when you have proof.

[Guest]

Knowledge.

[mikbone]

Alma 32:21

And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true

[Guest Doctrine]

Knowledge.

So then we know but does that mean we no longer have faith.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Anddenex]

So then we know but does that mean we no longer have faith.

Our faith is dormant in that thing which we know, however faith is still existent. I find it interesting that we are told that a perfect God exercised faith in the creation of the many worlds. These leads then to other questions also.

We may "know" that God answers prayers because we have received, unquestionably, answers to our prayers. Does this mean our faith in non existent with prayer? No, we still exercise faith in each prayer because we do not have, as yet, a perfect knowledge regarding the will of God with this particular prayer.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I am going to probably say some different things, but I feel are accurate. This is largely coming from the lectures on faith.

Joseph Smith taught that faith is essentially the cause of all action in all intelligent beings, and that it is a principle of power. He uses the Hebrews 11 explanation of faith to teach us that faith is the "assurance that men have of the existence of things not seen." So we may not see something, but we have an assurance somewhere that says it is there. The evidence of this assurance can be seen when we look at our actions. Why did I study? If I did not have some assurance that I could actually gain knowledge from studying, would I have studied. In other words what we really believe in our heart will move us to act.

I want to focus on that aspect. Once you know something, you still possess faith and you still act. In reality you can't have faith at all if you do not have a knowledge of the thing in which you have faith. Joseph Smith later teaches and demonstrates that the world has always had the knowledge of God on the Earth, which allowed them to exercise faith unto salvation.

So to the op's question. I don't think we know something is true unless we do have proof. Now we may know something but not necessarily that it is true until we test our faith. The fruits will teach whether our faith was placed in something right or not. And then we have a small proof for ourselves. A knowledge that that principle is true. It may not be perfect yet, but one day it will come.(As andennex and mikbone alluded to)

Does that make sense?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Another point that Joseph Smith explains is that faith is an attribute of God. If God did not have faith, then He would not be God. However, since He does then He is. So we too must develop and cultivate the attribute of faith so that we may be like Him. Even though He knows everything, and we will know everything, we will also possess a faith in its perfectness.

It makes most sense to me when understood from explanation that I made above and that Joseph Smith makes. Faith is the moving cause of all action in all intelligent beings. What I believe and know, and thus conform my life to what I know, will move me to act. When I possess this attribute I am moved to act. When this attribute is absent in me, I become a lazy bum.

[Vort]

As Third pointed out above, the word "faith" has more than one meaning.

[Traveler]

I have a question and would like some in put.

Faith is to know something is true without proof.

Well what do you call it when you have proof.

For my self, I define faith as the process or journey into light to discover, understand and utilize truth. This is in contrast to what I believe to be false faith - which is the thinking that truth is a destination and faith is believing that one has arrived despite any evidence to the contrary.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have a question and would like some in put.

Faith is to know something is true without proof.

Well what do you call it when you have proof.

To get to proof for anything learned one would have to pass through levels of faith no matter what the topic. When one is young, one has faith in what their parents are teaching is true. When we go through school we have faith that what the teachers are teaching is true and we build on it.

If I study chemistry, I don't have to go out and find all the elements myself, refine them myself and define their structure all by myself to know, for example, the molecular weight of carbon. I can simply look at a periodic table and look at all the molecular weights. But by doing that, it requires faith that that information is true. I didn't prove it for myself. I have never personally proven the instability of all the isotopes of uranium, I will take their word for it, I have faith that their information is correct about it's radioactive properties.

In that way, faith is the quickest way to learn. If everyone had to learn all things individually than man would be stuck in the stone age or worse. Faith based learning is what allows us to be a society and advance ourselves.

The same principle applies to the pre-mortal and the post-mortal world.

The key issue with faith, as far as the religious significance goes, is what we have faith in. Do we express faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and faith in our Savior or do we express more faith in the carnal realm, what is physically manifest? This is often separated by the terms "of man" or "of God". Do we have more faith in the teachings of man or more in the teachings of God? It is not so much of a question of faith or no faith but where we put our faith. I know of no person in this world that has no faith in anything, if they claim that, they are not telling the truth.

[HiJolly]

I have collected these quotes, I love them:

“Faith does not automatically turn uncertainties into certainties. What it does is

take us beyond the detached, speculative outlook which prevents the most significant

sorts of experience; it enables us to live and act amid the uncertainties of life

without pretensions of intellectual or moral infallibility.”

-- Ian Barbour

Myths, Models, and Paradigms: A Comparative Study of Science

and Religion, 137

"The pillars of my faith are still intact, but the roof has blown blessedly off the

structure to reveal a whole sky full of stars."

-- Mormon author/poet Emma Lou Thayne,

also wrote the hymn "Where Can I Turn for Peace"

"The human soul, like a charioteer, must drive two horses as it progresses toward Heaven. The horses must work together or the chariot will just go round and round. …It would be unfortunate if either should outstretch the other. Over-emphasizing intellect to the neglect of spirituality, and over-emphasizing faith without the application of reason are both unworthy of practicing Latter-Day Saints. We cannot achieve spiritual excellence without intellectual rigor, and intellectual excellence is hollow without active spirituality. We need to have the spirit as we learn, and we need to have learning as we build faith. Working together, faith and intellect help us achieve the Latter-day Saint goal of eternal progression." (Reflections of a Mormon Historian p.229)

-- Leonard J. Arrington

"Faith is not so much something we believe; faith is something we live."

-- Joseph B. Wirthlin

Here is my belief: When we gain knowledge in that thing that we *used* to have faith in, then that new knowledge introduces us to new realms of possibility, in which we can now exercise new faith. So, rather than knowledge eliminating faith, what it does is spark or create whole new vistas in which faith for the first time becomes active.

HiJolly