Freemasonry - Please Help?


ScullyItsMe
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Freemasons used Luciferic symbols within the layout of government center Washington D.C. Freemasons worship Lucifer, the Light-Bearer. Lucifer and Satan are biblically the same individual, Freemasonry is really the worship of Satan. By quoting their own sources and depicting the symbols in which they use, this claim is proven.

Satan and Masonry have the exact same goals. The secret goal of Masonry is to subjugate the world for Masonry, and be like God.

Somebody presented me with this question: Freemasons and the Illuminati are supposedly

'in league with the Devil' to put it bluntly and through deceit and lies aim to heighten themselves and become like Gods.

Then that person said on the LDS.org website it said 'Man has the potential to become like God' -

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

So he asked me what's the difference - are the LDS people not just subjecting to the same Satanic power-hungry ideology?

Thoughts.. opinions. I'm a LDS and I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.:confused:

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You can take pretty much any symbolism and turn it into something "Satanic", because Satanic symbolism uses and overlays symbolism of everything else. It borrows heavily from Christian symbolism and others, and attempts to use it for its own purpose.

Symbols are just symbols. They all have their own origins. How those symbols get used is up to the person using them.

I do not believe Freemasonry is Satanic. Due to the "secret" nature of the fraternity, and the influence it wielded in older times, there was a backlash and a lot of scared, resentful people actually formed an "Anti-Masonic Party" here in the US to try and combat them politically. All of this stuff about them being Satanic is about as true as Southern Baptists saying that Mormons worship Lucifer and have orgies in our temples. It's just a bunch of ignorant, scared people who are afraid of symbolism and don't understand the concept of keeping sacred things reserved from the world, or keeping pearls from the swine, so to speak.

You have nothing to be concerned about. Joseph Smith was a Mason. Much of our temple ceremony derives from the true teachings of Masonry which were truly the echoes of the ancient temple of Solomon, which Joseph Smith, as a Restorer and Seer, was inspired to pick up on and convert into a truer form in our temples. Freemasonry, like the original mimicked priesthood instituted by the righteous Pharaoh, is just another organization that existed through the ages and preserved valuable remnants of those sacred teachings so that they could be restored in a fullness one day. It is a great, beneficial organization that is full of valuable insights and service.

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When someone decides they don't like something, eventually they'll say whatever they can to make it seem as bad as possible. Whether Freemasonry, or the LDS Church, heck open it up to most anything. Ford fans will say whatever they can to knock down Chevrolet and Dodge fans, and they, in turn, will do the same back.

I'm not saying all people do this, but as a society, it tends to happen. You see it everywhere and what it ultimately reveals is the human sins of intolerance, hate, spite, etc. People will believe what they choose to believe, true or not. It's the agency we're given of God in action.

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Theosis, or the potential for man to become like God, is not a Masonic or Illuminati practice, but originated in the Gospel Millennia ago. It can be traced back to Biblical times and was a foundational them over 2,000 years ago. This link has many scriptures and quotes which back up this claim. Scroll down the supporting claims section for this info: Mormonism and the nature of God/Deification of man - FAIRMormon

I also have about 30 pages of scriptures, quotes from early Christians, Jews, scholars, etc.... which also points to this principle being ancient.

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You can take pretty much any symbolism and turn it into something "Satanic", because Satanic symbolism uses and overlays symbolism of everything else. It borrows heavily from Christian symbolism and others, and attempts to use it for its own purpose.

Symbols are just symbols. They all have their own origins. How those symbols get used is up to the person using them.

I do not believe Freemasonry is Satanic. Due to the "secret" nature of the fraternity, and the influence it wielded in older times, there was a backlash and a lot of scared, resentful people actually formed an "Anti-Masonic Party" here in the US to try and combat them politically. All of this stuff about them being Satanic is about as true as Southern Baptists saying that Mormons worship Lucifer and have orgies in our temples. It's just a bunch of ignorant, scared people who are afraid of symbolism and don't understand the concept of keeping sacred things reserved from the world, or keeping pearls from the swine, so to speak.

You have nothing to be concerned about. Joseph Smith was a Mason. Much of our temple ceremony derives from the true teachings of Masonry which were truly the echoes of the ancient temple of Solomon, which Joseph Smith, as a Restorer and Seer, was inspired to pick up on and convert into a truer form in our temples. Freemasonry, like the original mimicked priesthood instituted by the righteous Pharaoh, is just another organization that existed through the ages and preserved valuable remnants of those sacred teachings so that they could be restored in a fullness one day. It is a great, beneficial organization that is full of valuable insights and service.

I agree with everything except that last paragraph, and concede to Magus that Joseph, Brigham, and the rest of the Nauvoo-era folks certainly believed that, in a very literal way.

And Freemasonry IS a great, beneficial organization. :)

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Good Morning ScullyItsMe! It is a pleasure to meet you. :)

Somebody presented me with this question: Freemasons and the Illuminati are supposedly

'in league with the Devil' to put it bluntly and through deceit and lies aim to heighten themselves and become like Gods.

Then that person said on the LDS.org website it said 'Man has the potential to become like God' -

So he asked me what's the difference - are the LDS people not just subjecting to the same Satanic power-hungry ideology?

Thoughts.. opinions. I'm a LDS and I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.:confused:

There are many problems with this persons thinking. They are relying on falsehoods to draw a conclusion that is also false.

Problems With "Somebody's" argument:

1. The Freemasons are not in league with Satan

2. What Freemasons do is irrelevant to what Mormons do

3. We don't use deceit and lies to heighten ourselves (neither do the Freemaons, FYI)

4. And other issues that I won't get in to...

Think about this for a second. Is God good? Yes, He is good. Does God do everything that is good? Yes, He does. So, if I want to become like God then aren't I really just wanting to become someone who is good and does good? Everybody on this earth should desire with all of their hearts to become like God, to be like Him in every way. We don't do it through lies and deceit (that's impossible since God is good), but we are able to accomplish this by exercising faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ (which includes living the gospel of Jesus Christ).

Respectfully,

Finrock

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I agree with everything except that last paragraph, and concede to Magus that Joseph, Brigham, and the rest of the Nauvoo-era folks certainly believed that, in a very literal way.

And Freemasonry IS a great, beneficial organization. :)

sorry, what don't you agree with?

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sorry, what don't you agree with?

I'm going to take a whack at the guessing game and say it was this blue stuff that the disagreement was with.

Much of our temple ceremony derives from the true teachings of Masonry which were truly the echoes of the ancient temple of Solomon

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Originally Posted by Magus:

sorry, what don't you agree with?

I'm going to take a whack at the guessing game and say it was this blue stuff that the disagreement was with.

Much of our temple ceremony derives from the true teachings of Masonry which were truly the echoes of the ancient temple of Solomon

Yep, that's it. There's no question Joseph and company totally, literally believed it.

HiJolly

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In addition to all that's been said, you might want to make sure you can distinguish "the message" (the covenants, promised blessings, doctrines) of the LDS endowment, from "the ritual" (how the message is conveyed).

There are similarities between LDS Temple and Masonic rituals. The messages of the two groups, though, are quite distinct in their purpose, scope, authority and doctrinal basis. :)

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Has anyone here actually read or listened to the oaths Masons make or read the educational material they put out to their members? Anyone actually been a masonry member? Anyone actually talk with someone who was a High Mason who then converted to Christianity?

If not, where are you getting your information and views regarding Masonry?

I had believed Masonry to be a benign quaint and mostly dead organization until I studied it further. Now I know better and can not see how I can declair it as anything other than a secret society, the recruiting grounds for secret combinations, and a branch of the Church of the Devil with Satan at it's head.

For a long time I simply relied/leaned upon my own understanding and relied upon the arm of the flesh via what I'd heard from others. When I read a book written by a LDS author and the chapter here regarding Masonry I received a witness via the Spirit completely different than what I had originally thought. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be writing this =).

Give yourself 5-15 minutes, read, ponder, and ask the Lord yourself?

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Martain -

Joseph Smith Jr was a mason.

Joseph Smith Sr was a mason.

Hyrum Smith was a mason.

Brigham Young was a mason.

My grandfather and great-grandfather, both thoroughly decent men, were masons.

If someone decides masonry isn't for them individually--OK; then. But the conspiratorial whispers about Masonry being satanically inspired seem to me to be of a piece with anti-Mormonism; which relies on many of the same tactics.

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Has anyone here actually read or listened to the oaths Masons make or read the educational material they put out to their members? Anyone actually been a masonry member? Anyone actually talk with someone who was a High Mason who then converted to Christianity?

If not, where are you getting your information and views regarding Masonry?

I had believed Masonry to be a benign quaint and mostly dead organization until I studied it further. Now I know better and can not see how I can declair it as anything other than a secret society, the recruiting grounds for secret combinations, and a branch of the Church of the Devil with Satan at it's head.

For a long time I simply relied/leaned upon my own understanding and relied upon the arm of the flesh via what I'd heard from others. When I read a book written by a LDS author and the chapter here regarding Masonry I received a witness via the Spirit completely different than what I had originally thought. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be writing this =).

Give yourself 5-15 minutes, read, ponder, and ask the Lord yourself?

I have read them. It is in fact kind of a secret society (at least in so far as they hold some things sacred like Mormons. Their membership is not necessarily secret). So that shouldn't really surprise anyone. Most places can be a recruiting ground for secret combinations (I have seen the church used as such by some members). However, it is not satanic. It is not a branch of the church of the devil. It is a system which is supposed to make good men better. Many godly men have been masons.

JAG is right. This is like anti-Mormonism. It always make me sad when I see books by Mormons slandering other groups. You'd think we might know better.

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Yes, Martain, I have studied Masonry extensively myself which inevitably led to websites containing everything a Mason would know and hear during their initiations / ceremonies / degrees (first seven degrees of the York Rite, specifically).

Much of what you will read concerning Masonry, it's origins, etc, is completely false and made up, including--until recently--what the Masons said about themselves (that they originated in medieval stonemason guilds, something thoroughly disproven and refuted in the book mentioned below).

If you want a scholarly, plausible and rational/fair analysis of Masonry's origins, I recommend "Born In Blood: The Lost Secrets Of Freemasonry" by John J. Robinson. He isn't a Mason, and as importantly, he isn't an anti-Mason. He consulted all the records of Masonic museums, libraries and lodges he could get his hands on. He traveled to Oxford, consulted medieval archives and histories of England, Scotland and France back to the 1100's, and his premises/conclusions are both well thought out and even-handed. He doesn't reveal the grips and other explicitly "secret" parts of Masonic rituals, so he was as respectful to the organization as he could be.

To give you a summary (you really should read the book for yourself, as should all Masons or anyone interested in Masonry), Robinson bases his conclusion on the histories of the Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller, the Peasant's Revolt in England in 1381, and the power struggles between King Philip IV of France, Pope Clement V, King Edward II of England, and the various claimants to the Scottish crown at the time. Once King Philip IV and Pope Clement V condemned the Templars, dissolved their order, and sanctioned their arrest, torture, murder and seizure of all their money, manors, serfs, etc, in France on Friday the 13th, October, 1307, there was a period of three months before King Edward II of England began to execute the Pope's decree. In those three months, the Templars in England--learning what was done to their brother monks in France--went underground in England and of necessity founded a secret society of mutual protection against the Roman Catholic Church, King Edward II and other secular authorities, and the Knights Hospitaller in England who had received all the Templars' monasteries, chapels, lands and most of their money and would want to eliminate their rival monastic order (Templars).

Guess what the King of Scotland did with the Papal decree? Nothing, didn't even have it read or proclaimed in Scotland as he was focusing on Scotland's independence to the exclusion of all else. Which made Scotland a very safe haven for any Templars (now officially deemed heretics and traitors) seeking to escape persecution and death by torture.

This Templar secret society of mutual protection was the origin of Secret Masonry (Masonry as practiced before the London 1717 "coming out" as it were), including the oaths, penalties, and Old Charges of Masonry (which make no sense for stonecutters to abide by, he explains more in the book). Furthermore, originally there were only two degrees of Templar secret Masonry (for lack of a better eponym): Entrant, later called Entered Apprentice; and, Fellow, later called Fellow Craft.

Most things beyond the first two degrees were appended later as other enemies of the Roman Catholic Church sought a safe haven (scientists, mathematicians, astronomers, etc who like Galileo made claims thought to be injurious to the Papal authority). This is where the tools of the stonemason, the mathematical emphasis and other details were woven into and overlaid on the existing two degrees.

After the coming out in London in 1717 of four lodges forming the first Grand Lodge of England, and it's transmission to France by a Scotsman/scholar/royal tutor, over one thousand degrees were invented and administered (this claim was made by a masonic historian, read the book).

So all that's similar between the original, Templar Secret Masonry and the LDS Temple Endowment, is that religious men (Templars, Mormons) who were being persecuted by the dominant sects/faction(s) of Christianity at the time (Roman Catholicism, Protestantism respectively), needed a way to ensure their mutual protection from their enemies who would kill the "heretics." The doctrines, covenants, promised blessings and spiritual perspective of the LDS Temple Endowment is 180 degrees different from the Masonic ceremonies and "doctrines" underlying hand grips and oaths.

The Penalties--both in Templar Secret Masonry and LDS Temple Endowment--were meant to impress upon the candidate's mind the seriousness of not betraying each other to those looking to shed blood. The LDS Temple Endowment is more progressive than Masonry in that once the threat of physical harm was well past, the LDS Church removed the penalties from the endowment which in no way altered the religious teachings and blessings.

So yeah, Masonry isn't an arm of Satan or evil, it was originally a way for dissidents from the Roman Catholic Church to unite and protect each other no matter your religious persuasion. Hence the requirement that Masons only believe in a Supreme Being but it doesn't matter how you worship because Templars, Scientists, Mathematicians all had one thing in common: they needed to be safe, they believed in God, and they had no priesthood or formal system of worship once the Pope had condemned them...who would give them the Eucharist, perform the holy sacraments, etc? No one, so their religious life changed over night, though their spiritual beliefs did not necessarily. Why was belief in a Supreme Being so important that atheists aren't allowed to be Masons? (outside of France, anyway) Because if you make an oath whose penalty will ostensibly be carried out by God, but you don't believe in God, why would you fear to break your oath if no one Above was watching / punishing oath-breakers?

The outcry over similarities between the LDS Temple Endowment and the Masonic degrees/ceremonies are much ado about nothing. It's like saying, "Hey, that math teacher uses chalk and a chalkboard to teach his students, but that French teacher was using chalk and a chalkboard first! The math teacher must have just copied the French teacher but changed the foreign language to math! Conspiracy! Fraud! Impostor!"

HOW the information is presented, memorized and absorbed is separate from THE INFORMATION that is presented. So Masons and Mormons both "use chalkboards" (read: similar rituals) to teach their adherents. So what? What's "on the chalkboard" is completely different and the LDS Temple Endowment is inpsired of God. Period. :)

Edited by CrimsonKairos
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If someone decides masonry isn't for them individually--OK; then. But the conspiratorial whispers about Masonry being satanically inspired seem to me to be of a piece with anti-Mormonism; which relies on many of the same tactics.

You really equate my words regarding masonry to be conspiratorial whispers? I don't understand where I'm whispering or how I'm trying to be conspiratorial. Maybe I misunderstand that last paragraph.

Anti-Mormonism relies upon ignorance and lies regarding the doctrines of our faith and an unwillingness to ask of God. My post is definitely anti-masonry but I have no need to rely upon ignorance and lies... ignorance is what had previously placed my opinion in harmony with yours.

My request was to take 5-15 minutes and read the chapter I referenced and ask God in prayer. Is there any way I can get further from the tactics of lies and ignorance than that?

I too accepted the logic that because I know Joseph etc to be men of God then since they were good, and they were Masons then Masonry must be good too. I wondered why if Masonry wasn't good, why would they have joined?

I say wondered because that same chapter I reference? It answered those questions as well and removed any conflict regarding Joseph's character and participation.

You're free to feel I'm wrong. Your response saddens me but I understand it because until recently I agreed with you. I can't force you and I wouldn't even if I could but I really wish you'd take 5-15 minutes and read the chapter I referenced and ask God in prayer for the truth of the matter. I'd really appreciate 'someone' doing so because at the moment I'm a lone voice here and we know of the doctrine of at least two witnesses.

Edited by Martain
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So he asked me what's the difference - are the LDS people not just subjecting to the same Satanic power-hungry ideology?

Thoughts.. opinions. I'm a LDS and I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.:confused:

Man has the potential to become like God. God having all power has given men agency to choose for themselves who they will follow and who they will obey. Were Satan to have all power he would take away the agency of man.

Satan seeks to replace God and force all to do his will and deny us any choice in the matter. For this Satan was cast out of heaven for his plan was the opposite of the one our Father put forth.

Moses 4:3-4 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; and he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understand that based upon faithfulness, righteousness and the mercy/grace of Jesus Christ, we can become co-heirs with our Savior. As Jesus Christ has obtained all that the Father hath and reigns with him on the throne, so to ultimately may we likewise if we prove worthy.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Revelations 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

We would not replace, or supplant our Heavenly Father or Savior but would rule under them to continue the Great Plan of Happiness as God's over our own creations.

So to summarize the difference:

Satan and his hosts seek to live outside the laws of God and to overthrow, supplant, replace, cast down, and rule over the God they hate in order to destroy and cause to cease his will and plans for ever and ever.

Latter-day Saints seek to become like the God we love and to live with him and rule under him in order to support, perpetuate and continue his will and plans for ever and ever.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

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Interestingly, Martain, in one key respect Freemasons may be closer to the Millenial inhabitants of the earth than most others.

Specifically, their ecumenical "all faiths welcome" attitude--requiring only that a Mason believe in a Supreme Being--is a good thing. We know that in the Millenium, not everyone will be a baptized member of the LDS Church. Sure, everyone will bow the knee and confess with their tongues that Jesus is the anointed Savior of mankind. But not everyone will choose to worship God the same way, even during the Millenium when Christ is on the earth!

Now if you believe some shady conspiracy that Satan is the "true Supreme Being" the Masons worship, I clearly can't say anything to persuade you otherwise. However if you, like me, study history and conclude that Templars and other Roman Catholic dissidents from the 1300s through the 1600s were the original "masons" in England and Scotland, and that the Masonic ban on proselytizing or even discussing religion in the lodge was a natural outgrowth of disparate groups of "heretics" banding together for literally a life-and-death struggle...it all seems understandable to me.

I know the Grand Master of the Utah Freemasons in 2008 was Mormon, and he or someone else in his position said basically, "I'm a freemason because I get to meet people I'd otherwise never meet." In other words, he gets to meet adherents of other religious traditions that--outside of a lodge--might never speak to each other because of their perceived differences in tradition, belief, etc. But through Freemasonry, this Mormon was saying he gets to fellowship with non-Mormons in a way he'd otherwise never be able to.

Have there been evil Freemasons? Sure. Same with Catholics, Buddhists, Mormons, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. The point isn't "are there evil Freemasons," the point is "does Freemasonry teach its adherents to hate God and Christ and worship Satan?" And the answer to that query is a resounding, undebatable "NO!"

Interestingly, the modern Freemasons are the intellectual descendants of Catholic heretics from the medieval ages, and since religious freedom is pretty well established in America at least, I personally wouldn't see a huge motivation for myself to become a Freemason since they originally began as a secret society of mutual protection from the Catholic Church which pretty much dictated every aspect of secular and religious life for many, many centuries in Europe and elsewhere.

State differently, I have too many things I'm trying to do in my life and family, to justify spending up to three hours per degree of initiation in Freemasonry, all just to learn what Catholic dissidents (Templars, mathematicians, philosophers, astronomers) added and overlaid on Masonic traditions as they struggled to avoid arrest, torture and execution, beginning with the 1307 A.D. suppression of the Templar Knights in France under King Philip IV and Pope Clement V.

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I used to be a member of the Scottish Rite Research Society (SRRS), even though I'm not a Freemason. I have several very good friends who are Freemasons and temple worthy Mormons, one of which is a rather influential and nationally known Freemason.

Freemasons are not a problem, to themselves or anyone else. Period.

HJ

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You what? You're free to feel I'm wrong. Your response saddens me but I understand it because until recently I agreed with you. I can't force you and I wouldn't even if I could but I really wish you'd take 5-15 minutes and read the chapter I referenced and ask God in prayer for the truth of the matter. I'd really appreciate 'someone' doing so because at the moment I'm a lone voice here and we know of the doctrine of at least two witnesses.

Martain, I don't expect you to be bound by my own spiritual experiences; but I will say that my reading of the site only confirms my previous post.

  • Express protestations of "objectivity"? Check.
  • Accusations of mindless obedience within the target institution? Check.
  • Singling the institution out as "foul, treasonable, and anti-Republican nature"? Check.
  • Personal smears at leaders within the organization? Check.
  • Exposés alleging sinister intent underlying obscure and confidential rituals? Check.

One can find a second witness for pretty much every railing accusation under the sun. But that second witness for this particular accusation, will not be me.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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