Agency


Le_chocolat
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Something that I've been struggling to wrap my mind around is the whole idea of agency and God's plan for each of us. Especially now where I'm at a point in my life where I need to make a lot of decisions. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves what path in life we take, but in the end God knows what we will choose. He knows the spouse we will choose, where we will choose to live, whether or not we will choose to make and keep covenants, etc. So we essentially have the sense of agency since we don't know what will happen to us, but I have a hard time viewing it as true agency. Can someone shed some light on the subject?

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Something that I've been struggling to wrap my mind around is the whole idea of agency and God's plan for each of us. Especially now where I'm at a point in my life where I need to make a lot of decisions. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves what path in life we take, but in the end God knows what we will choose. He knows the spouse we will choose, where we will choose to live, whether or not we will choose to make and keep covenants, etc. So we essentially have the sense of agency since we don't know what will happen to us, but I have a hard time viewing it as true agency. Can someone shed some light on the subject?

Agency is, in part, defined by its associated accountability. And it is usually not an all or nothing thing.

With that in mind, who is responsible or accountable for the decisions you make in this life? You or God?

I am not sure how you would define "true agency". Maybe that would help more people answer your question. Is there such a thing as "false agency"?

If someone gets drunk and then drives and kills someone, who was responsible, even though the person was not really conscious, or herself, during the act of driving drunk? The idea is that we are free to make choices but not free to decide on the consequences of those choices.

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The foundation of God's ability to know our choices is our "moral agency."

Once you are a parent, you will begin to know your children's unique behaviors, likes and dislikes. I know if I put two different toys in front of one of my son's, I already know which one he will pick.

Does my knowledge of his choice reduce his agency to choose? No, I only know the outcome, and I have not affected my child's choice. He is still able to choose.

This is in part of why we are able to ultimately put our full trust and faith in God. His ability to know our choices, allows his the opportunity to persuade us otherwise or to encourage us to continue. If our actions, which he could see were set in stone, then there would be no point to his warnings, they would be futile. Why does God warn, because he knows we have the agency to choose for ourselves. Otherwise, his warnings would be mockery.

EDIT: I assume this question is light of your mother's revelation from a previous post. You will still have the freedom to choose. Some revelations are also possibilities, not actions which are set in stone. However, no matter the result, no matter who you married, it was and will always be your choice.

Edited by Anddenex
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I've always taken the idea that "god knows what we are going to do" as less literal. To me it means he knows us that well. Are there ppl in your life that if you walked up and asked for something crazy you know exactly how they would respond? Not because you control the response but because you know them that well.

I recall a youth fireside where they were talking about how well we know our parents. The speaker asked "what would your parents say if you went home tonight and asked to take skydiving lessons?" My sister and I laughed, we both knew... Mom would say she didn't like it but if it was important enough for us to save the money to do it then it was ok with her. Dad would say ok as long as he came with us. Other kids laughed at us. So we went home and very seriously informed our parents that we had decided we wanted to go skydiving. It played out exactly as we thought it would, dad was even a little disappointed when he found out we weren't serious that it was an experiment based off the fireside. lol Did we take away our parents agency? nope, didn't control their responses or anything. Did we know what they would say/do? yup.

I can do the same with my kids. I know if I present an idea one way I will get resistance, if I go about it another I will get full support. Not because my kids don't have a choice in response but because I've gotten to know them.

That's how I see god when I hear "he knows what you will do". Sometimes my kids surprise me but it's nothing I can't deal with. I think our heavenly father is the same. Sometimes we surprise him but it's nothing he can't deal with.

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I have asked this exact question 3/4 years ago.

Two things have helped me understand this.

1)

If you drop a pencil above the table where will it land? Our knowledge gives us the ability to predict how the pencil will get from point A to point B. However, in order for the pencil to get to point B it has to get there independent of our own knowledge of it.

2)

It does not matter what knowledge God has of us. It does not affect us. What affect us is for us to Experience what God planned for us to experience. This is what helps us become. Joseph smith taught, "I teach them [the saints] correct principles and they govern themselves". God can only teach us from us doing what is in his infinite foreknowledge.

I will share an impression I have had recently on this.

As we grow, progress, become more Christ like in Love, charity, faith, knowedge, virtue, etc... We must experience something to learn that trait. It cannot be learned ourself only through the spirit, life circumstances, pain, suffering, failure, etc.

Now hypothetically lets say we knew in the preearth life what some of these weaknesses were. We decided we would become more Godly by overcoming a few of them and gaining them. We told Heavenly Father I want to learn to gain virtue and charity for others. Knowing we must learn it line upon line and also knowing that we must experience it we accepted to be placed into this world to gain that. Along with receiving a body.

God with his knowledge placed things in our life to accomplish what WE wanted to learn and experience (our agency). This makes things seem much more about what we choose than what God choose for us. I am not sure if this is a true situation entirely. I am not sure how much we choose our self. I am sure that to some degree we accepted it before hand though else we would have followed lucifer. Maybe the less obedient here choose not to learn and progress as much only get a body. We don't know.

But this attitude feels right for MYSELF only. I share it as opinion.

Here is a scripture to show this principle in action a little.

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father (Mosiah 3:16)

We are willing submitting to the things of God or we should learn how to even now! He does so, so we become, not just know. The jews knew the law but were wicked because they only followed the law as it was written.

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Something that I've been struggling to wrap my mind around is the whole idea of agency and God's plan for each of us. Especially now where I'm at a point in my life where I need to make a lot of decisions. We all have the ability to choose for ourselves what path in life we take, but in the end God knows what we will choose. He knows the spouse we will choose, where we will choose to live, whether or not we will choose to make and keep covenants, etc. So we essentially have the sense of agency since we don't know what will happen to us, but I have a hard time viewing it as true agency. Can someone shed some light on the subject?

As we consider the concepts of agency there are a number of rhetorical logical problems - foremost is the possibility of interfering with the agency of others. This must be seen at more than just a subtle problem.

In the fields of science we deal with the study of impact of even seemingly insignificant influences in complex systems in what is called Chaos Theory. This theory of predicting possible results in altering parameters is the entire basis of global warming as well as such things as considerations concerning loss of minor species in complex ecosystems. I find it of great personal interest that many religious thinkers deny that G-d leaves anything even to remote possibilities of chance but then demand that man must have autonomy in order for G-d to meter out justice and **** souls to various deplorable states.

For me I have resolved all the issues with the LDS understanding and teaching that we all existed as intelligent beings exercising our free will and agency in the most important choices before coming to mortality. Thus I resolve the issues that any and all things that can and do occur in this live were all known by us as well as G-d. Nothing was left to chance. We all knew of each and every intrusion into our own agency and choices.

The reconsideration of all intrusions is known in LDS theology as the Atonement. It is through the atonement that all possibilities of chance and the agency and free will of others is overcome as well as any and all intrusions we create in harmful choices. And so we all experience for the short period of mortality how devastating any choice to experiment with evil is and then with knowledge based the experiment of mortality we can know the good from evil and so make a choice in preparation for presenting our choice before G-d at the final judgment.

Thus our task is just to learn - we have no power to change the course of things that will and must be. But our power is in learning to love, enjoy and connect with all that we possibility can of that which is good.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

2 Nephi 2:

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

As traveler said, the atonement overcomes our falling short.

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