What can one be asked to give?

[SomebodySomewhere101]

Me and my girlfriend have been going out for a while now, and somehow stumbled onto the topic of marriage and the temple. To understand the dilemma first I'm going to give a little bit of background. She has had issues with relationships in her family in the past. She was abused by her birth father, who her mother has since divorced and her step dad has had 2 wives before her mom both of which were temple marriages that were annulled. They have all been sealed together as a family but her dad cheated on her mom. This has caused a lot of resentment towards temple marriage for her. We got onto the topic and she said that she would get sealed in the temple, but would require a civil union for about 3 years first. (An emergency way out of the situation probably caused by the abuse that she saw her mom take as a child.) My background from my parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on is that you should never settle for a civil union. If they won't go to the temple first thing then you should proceed with your life. We got into a large disagreement about it and it ended up with her saying well you can take me as I am or leave me. We haven't spoken in about 5 days now. I love her more than anything except for God and Jesus Christ, and it's tearing me up inside. Could you guys accept a temporary civil marriage, and then get sealed or do you feel that it is a situation that will cause more problems than help? Please help

-SomebodySomewhere101

[Martain]

Dear Somebody,

What would happen if, in getting married to you civilly or in the temple, you too ended up divorce? How would that affect her future?

My concern is that these wounds have crippled her trust/faith in God. If this is not so, then why would she not seek to God to know whether she can trust you with a temple marriage? If he confirmed it, wouldn't that be enough?

Such wounds as she carries, though not for the most part physically visible, are great and deep. While counseling and therapy would help, it is the master healer whose touch she desperately needs.

Outside of divine revelation from the Lord comforting me and advising me that yes he approves and to go forward with the civil marriage to start with, I would not personally do so.

Whether the answer is to wait and help her come to Christ for healing, to move forward in faith while doing the same or move forward but with a civil marriage instead, only God knows.

While I expect you can pour out your feelings and such questions to God in private personal prayer, if you are able, consider doing so with her present. If you can be that open, that unguarded, in her presence, I feel it will soften her heart and help her pray likewise.

Proverbs 3:55 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Alma 37:37 Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good;

My heart goes out to the both of you. May God bless you both.

Love,

Brother M.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Martain

[NeuroTypical]

Hey Somebody,

It's rough to try to make things work with someone who is carrying so much stuff from their past, it might kill her future. I hope the two of you can work things out. But at the end of the day, she has a very painful and difficult road to walk in order to be healthy and strong enough to not let her past limit and taint her life. Not everyone ends up walking that road.

Good luck.

[Smudge]

There are countries where you have to have a civil service first, and if you can't make it to the temple in 24hrs you have to wait a year. I don't think we feel that we are settling.

[Dravin]

We got onto the topic and she said that she would get sealed in the temple, but would require a civil union for about 3 years first. (An emergency way out of the situation probably caused by the abuse that she saw her mom take as a child.)

Honestly that she has one hand on, what she perceives to be, an escape hatch going into the marriage would give me pause.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Dravin

[Wingnut]

If you don't want to settle for a civil marriage with the possibility of a sealing later, then don't. But, despite the knowledge you have about her history, don't for a minute think that you understand what she's been through. You can't force her into your world view anymore than she can force you into hers. If you're not willing to settle, then get out now before you both get hurt even further. She deserves to be with someone who won't resent her for being damaged by events over which she had no control.

Another thing to consider is that even if you decide you can wait for the sealing, she's going to have a lot of issues. She's going to automatically distrust you because she's never had a stable male figure in her life. She's probably going to need therapy (if she isn't already in it), and you need to think long and hard about whether or not you are willing to commit the rest of your life (and longer, hopefully) to someone with a heavy amount of emotional baggage.

If you're not willing, that's fine. But don't lead her to believe that you are. That's not fine.

[Dravin]

Wingnut's post goes into the kind of background thinking underlying why the situation would give me pause. The situation brings up some fundamental differences in experiences and ways of thinking that requires pondering, introspection, and prayer before a decision is made.

[Vort]

Friend, you have been given fair warning. Your fiancee is making her feelings and prejudices crystal clear. She wants to try you out for at least three years before committing to you. If she were not Mormon, she would doubtless insist on living together first before marriage; instead, she insists on a non-sealed marriage, which she seems to view as less binding and more disposable, before agreeing to "the real thing".

If you agree to her terms, then you have no business complaining about it in three years when she doesn't want to get sealed at all. Don't think you will change her. You will not. Take it or leave it. (Personally, I would leave, and fast, but that's only my opinion.)

[Just_A_Guy]

We got into a large disagreement about it and it ended up with her saying well you can take me as I am or leave me. We haven't spoken in about 5 days now.

The above is, I fear, a taste of the drama, low expectations, and--frankly--emotional manipulation that you would receive at your girlfriend's hand as a newlywed.

Temple marriage isn't about a couple taking each other as they are. It's about a couple seeing what the other may become, and then mutually covenanting to help each other reach that potential through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I love her more than anything except for God and Jesus Christ, and it's tearing me up inside.

Let me tell you a secret that Satan doesn't want you to know, and that he will do everything in his power to get you to disbelieve: Who you "fall in love" with, is your choice.

[Dravin]

Let me tell you a secret that Satan doesn't want you to know, and that he will do everything in his power to get you to disbelieve: Who you "fall in love" with, is your choice.

To that I would add that the idea of, "All you need is love" is horribly untrue. Hollywood and fairy tales would teach the idea that the only thing needed for a successful marriage is the tingles and long content sighs when you look at each other. That's not the stuff successful marriages are built upon (though they by no means have to be absent), what marriage is built upon is charity, true charity, couple with commitment and shared goals.

Which skimming over the article you linked too, it looks like I'm basically just giving a cliff notes version. That's a good article.

[BadWolf]

What gives me pause, is a little different.

Paraphrase: Somehow stumbled into a discussion about Temple marriage?

Im getting a general feeling of ambivalence from you that's making me wonder if you're REALLY looking at this girl as a life partner, future wife & mother of your children.., someone for whom you would be their best friend, priesthood holder, husband, father to her children.

OR

If be ause you've been dating for awhile, have feelings for her, kinda like her ... That you're doing "what's expected" or "the next thing" etc., but aren't really behind the whole idea.

Marriage & family & another person's(people's) needs as equal to or greater than your own as a good thing in general... But not for you now, or you with HER, now???

Im just not feeling any conviction, any umph, any determination.

Instead... Lots of kindas, maybes, buts.

If you need permission to break up with her, you have it. Its okay to break up with a good person, that you like & care for. It really, really is. We learn from dating GOOD people far more than the dating disasters. Its okay for her to be amazing, but not your wife. Ditto you can be amazing, and not her husband.

If you need permission not to break up with someone you love, respect, trust, & admire ... Because it means going against the flow for awhile, you have that, too. (And also a kick in the pants. Your wife SHOULD be someone you will face all comers to help & protect.)

Key point:

Your wife.

Her husband.

Someone you're not afraid of being made a fool out of, not hesitant to back up.

Someone she can trust & be protected by.

You in her corner, she in yours?

Are you those people?

[guast]

Hopefully God is slightly less judgmental than some of the posts in this thread...

She had a rough experience with her family life and that makes her struggling or even lack of faith in marriage or temple marriage a bit less than acceptable to contemptuous, anonymous strangers on the internet. Honestly, I would be less concerned about whether she wants to delay temple marriage and more concerned about how what she experienced is going to affect your relationship and her perception of marriage. Even if you could push her into a temple marriage that would do little to address the UNDERLYING reasons for why she feels the way she does. Sounds like she may need counseling to work out some of the stuff she's gone through.

A good civil marriage is infinity happier than a horrible temple marriage -- if you have any doubts about that read any number of the threads in this forum (don't misinterpret this statement to mean anything more I'm saying that a relationship is a lot, lot more than just where you get married and it includes all the baggage a person brings so be mindful of that baggage rather than just idiotically saying "yay, temple"). I can hear someone saying, "yes, but a horrible temple marriage has the potential to become a happy marriage." And so... what? It also has the potential to end in divorce. If you don't have two people working at the marriage it doesn't really matter where you get married.

So what if a person has to come to faith in a temple marriage step by step? It's sure easy to say "hurray for temple marriage" when you haven't been through a childhood where it has fallen apart again and again in the context of abuse. I'm not sure I would be very excited about temple marriage if that is what I'd seen either. If that doesn't work for you, that's perfectly fine, move along to the next girl. But it doesn't mean this one is failing at the gospel because she, let's assume, is trying to live the gospel but is still struggling with her faith in temple marriage. Figure out what works for you and what doesn't. I dated some girls who had HUGE emotional problems and eating disorders and whatnot. It wasn't a good fit for me. Can't say that it wasn't a good fit for someone else but it just didn't work for me. You have to decide what you can be okay with and what you can't.

[Guest]

Well, as my first requirement for marriage is "Divorce is not an option", then a 3-year "out clause" is completely unacceptable. "Come see me in 3 years when you're ready." would be my response.

And I'm not even talking about temple marriages. I'm talking about MARRIAGE. The covenant. MARRIAGE is not a "lets do it now. If it doesn't work out we can always divorce." That's a very sad outlook on marriage and it doesn't matter how emotionally crippled you are. If you're that crippled that you can't commit to forever, then don't get married. Improve on yourself first so you can completely give of yourself to your spouse. Completely. No holds barred. No "I Me Mine" left. You know the first sign of trouble in marriage is? When one of the spouses declare, "I deserve...". Demanding what you deserve has no place in a marriage. When Jesus showed us how to love, he did not say, "Love me, I deserve it.". No. Instead, he knelt down and washed their feet. So, if one spouse is not willing to go that distance, then it's not going to work out. So, why board a sinking ship? You can still love her and serve her without being married to her.

Edited April 30, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

Hopefully God is slightly less judgmental than some of the posts in this thread...

She had a rough experience with her family life and that makes her struggling or even lack of faith in marriage or temple marriage a bit less than acceptable to contemptuous, anonymous strangers on the internet. Honestly, I would be less concerned about whether she wants to delay temple marriage and more concerned about how what she experienced is going to affect your relationship and her perception of marriage. Even if you could push her into a temple marriage that would do little to address the UNDERLYING reasons for why she feels the way she does. Sounds like she may need counseling to work out some of the stuff she's gone through.

A good civil marriage is infinity happier than a horrible temple marriage -- if you have any doubts about that read any number of the threads in this forum (don't misinterpret this statement to mean anything more I'm saying that a relationship is a lot, lot more than just where you get married and it includes all the baggage a person brings so be mindful of that baggage rather than just idiotically saying "yay, temple"). I can hear someone saying, "yes, but a horrible temple marriage has the potential to become a happy marriage." And so... what? It also has the potential to end in divorce. If you don't have two people working at the marriage it doesn't really matter where you get married.

So what if a person has to come to faith in a temple marriage step by step? It's sure easy to say "hurray for temple marriage" when you haven't been through a childhood where it has fallen apart again and again in the context of abuse. I'm not sure I would be very excited about temple marriage if that is what I'd seen either. If that doesn't work for you, that's perfectly fine, move along to the next girl. But it doesn't mean this one is failing at the gospel because she, let's assume, is trying to live the gospel but is still struggling with her faith in temple marriage. Figure out what works for you and what doesn't. I dated some girls who had HUGE emotional problems and eating disorders and whatnot. It wasn't a good fit for me. Can't say that it wasn't a good fit for someone else but it just didn't work for me. You have to decide what you can be okay with and what you can't.

I disagree. Marriage is not something you do for compassion. You can love and serve somebody you care about without needing to marry somebody. Marriage is a covenant. It is the foundation for building families. You don't go into this covenant half-baked. Civil or otherwise.

[Leah]

Hopefully God is slightly less judgmental than some of the posts in this thread...

She had a rough experience with her family life and that makes her struggling or even lack of faith in marriage or temple marriage a bit less than acceptable to contemptuous, anonymous strangers on the internet. Honestly, I would be less concerned about whether she wants to delay temple marriage and more concerned about how what she experienced is going to affect your relationship and her perception of marriage. Even if you could push her into a temple marriage that would do little to address the UNDERLYING reasons for why she feels the way she does. Sounds like she may need counseling to work out some of the stuff she's gone through.

A good civil marriage is infinity happier than a horrible temple marriage -- if you have any doubts about that read any number of the threads in this forum (don't misinterpret this statement to mean anything more I'm saying that a relationship is a lot, lot more than just where you get married and it includes all the baggage a person brings so be mindful of that baggage rather than just idiotically saying "yay, temple"). I can hear someone saying, "yes, but a horrible temple marriage has the potential to become a happy marriage." And so... what? It also has the potential to end in divorce. If you don't have two people working at the marriage it doesn't really matter where you get married.

So what if a person has to come to faith in a temple marriage step by step? It's sure easy to say "hurray for temple marriage" when you haven't been through a childhood where it has fallen apart again and again in the context of abuse. I'm not sure I would be very excited about temple marriage if that is what I'd seen either. If that doesn't work for you, that's perfectly fine, move along to the next girl. But it doesn't mean this one is failing at the gospel because she, let's assume, is trying to live the gospel but is still struggling with her faith in temple marriage. Figure out what works for you and what doesn't. I dated some girls who had HUGE emotional problems and eating disorders and whatnot. It wasn't a good fit for me. Can't say that it wasn't a good fit for someone else but it just didn't work for me. You have to decide what you can be okay with and what you can't.

Why in the world would you think someone would have a good civil marriage but not a good temple marriage? And that is somehow preferable?

Someone who insists on an "out" clause in order to get married is simply not ready to be married. And apparently hasn't a clue what marriage is truly about. She's telling you right up front she reserves the right to bail on the marriage if the marriage doesn't go exactly as she wants...if she gets bored....any number of reasons.

[guast]

I disagree. Marriage is not something you do for compassion. You can love and serve somebody you care about without needing to marry somebody. Marriage is a covenant. It is the foundation for building families. You don't go into this covenant half-baked. Civil or otherwise.

Eh...? I'm not sure where you got that I think marriage is something you do for compassion. Please explain. I don't recall saying marriage is anything less than a commitment, civil or temple.

[guast]

Why in the world would you think someone would have a good civil marriage but not a good temple marriage? And that is somehow preferable?

A good marriage is a good marriage, regardless of where a person gets married. A temple marriage does not inherently make a marriage "better" than any other marriage or more importantly, happier. There are plenty of horrible marriages that are temple and that are civil. In this context, forcing a temple marriage when someone is not ready isn't going to make a happy marriage just because it was a temple marriage. That's why it can be incredibly important to figure out the baggage a person is bringing with them, sort it out if necessary, before simply running off to the temple.

I never said a good civil marriage is preferable to a good temple marriage. Frankly, I don't really care what someone else thinks is preferable. It's his/her life and his/her choices. I stand by my position that a good marriage is better than a horrible one but that's kind of self-evident. I would take a happy civil marriage over the temple marriages I read about in this forum. But that's me. Everyone has to figure out and do what's right for him or her.

Someone who insists on an "out" clause in order to get married is simply not ready to be married. And apparently hasn't a clue what marriage is truly about. She's telling you right up front she reserves the right to bail on the marriage if the marriage doesn't go exactly as she wants...if she gets bored....any number of reasons.

Stop pulling garbage out of thin air. I get that we are all making assumptions and conclusions based on very limited information about people we don't know but for goodness sake, at the very least use what is actually written in the OP's post rather than just coming up with nonsense.

Here is what is said: "An emergency way out of the situation probably caused by the abuse that she saw her mom take as a child." OP said she was abused as a child, she saw her mother abused, her dad cheated on her mom. She is concerned about the lasting nature of marriage... and you jump to the conclusion she wants to know she's not trapped " if the marriage doesn't go exactly as she wants... if she gets bored?" Really?? That was the first conclusion you could come to? How about she's a little gun-shy because she doesn't want to get trapped in a marriage in which she is abused or cheated on, like she experienced and witnessed during her whole growing up?? I'm making an assumption here but it's sure a lot more logical then yanking stuff out of no where. But maybe I misunderstand you, maybe "what marriage is truly about" is you commit no matter how many times you get cheated on or how many times he puts you in the hospital. If that's not a marriage that is going exactly the way she wants and she wants out... well, I'm in her corner, not yours.

I do (in a qualified way) agree with you on one point - she may not be ready for marriage. As I said before, it sounds like, understandably, she has some some things she experienced growing up that she still needs to sort out and counseling may be a good avenue. I don't know, that's for her to decide. But quit swinging the condescending she "hasn't a clue" around as though you are in any position to be patronizing about this girl you don't even know.

[Vort]

In this context, forcing a temple marriage when someone is not ready isn't going to make a happy marriage just because it was a temple marriage

If someone is not ready for a temple marriage, why do you think they might be ready for a civil marraige? If I'm a single Latter-day Saint looking to marry a wife for eternity, why ought I to be convinced to marry a woman who is not ready for a temple marriage? How does that make any sense?

I do (in a qualified way) agree with you on one point - she may not be ready for marriage.

You sound as though there is some doubt about that point. What on earth makes you think that she may be ready for marriage at all?

Is there any reason for this fellow not to turn tail and run as fast as possible?

[Guest]

Eh...? I'm not sure where you got that I think marriage is something you do for compassion. Please explain. I don't recall saying marriage is anything less than a commitment, civil or temple.

I got it from this...

A good civil marriage is infinity happier than a horrible temple marriage --

<snip>

So what if a person has to come to faith in a temple marriage step by step? It's sure easy to say "hurray for temple marriage" when you haven't been through a childhood where it has fallen apart again and again in the context of abuse. I'm not sure I would be very excited about temple marriage if that is what I'd seen either.

Sounded like you are advocating that it's okay to be civilly married instead of temple married because of her childhood experiences.

Edited April 30, 2013 by anatess