What are your thoughts on open theism?


Jeffmk
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I don't see how free agency could exist without free will. I'm really new to the concepts of open theism, but if they are what I think they are then it comes down to this:

God ultimately does not know what choices we will make.

I believe, God may know all of the possible choices we may make, He will have set limitations as far as what we can choose to do, He can also know the ultimate conclusion of mankind. But when it comes to choice he doesn't know.

Edited by Jeffmk
Changed "open atheism" to "open theism" in the text body.
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If I put my shoes on the coffee table, and my wife knew I was going to put my shoes on the coffee table, that doesn't take away my free agency in choosing whether to put my shoes on the coffee table or not.

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Yes it does. You lost your free agency the day you got married. :)

But setting that aside, Jerome's response has always been how I see it. I see why folks get hung up on whether we can surprise God or not, as an indicator of free agency, but I've never been able to follow them there totally.

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All I know is what about open theism is what I've read in the past 5 minutes on Google and Wikipedia, and from this article. Things I like about it:

-It seeks to remove part of the Greek/Roman (Babylonian) philosophy found in historical Christianity theology.

-Some parts of the teachings are more in line with LDS teachings than historical Christianity.

What I don't like about it:

-The theology still is a mixture of truth and error.

IMO, you will get far more out of studying the scriptures and words of the prophets in-depth than the words of philosophers, no matter how well-intentioned. The D&C and Book of Abraham contain some incredible scientific and spiritual truths most people don't even realize is there.

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I thoroughly believe God does know which I choice I will be making, which provides him an opportunity to guide my efforts, or either to correct them.

I find it comforting to know that in my path, my individual choices, God is able to guide my efforts. How else would he be able to know what is best if he is unable to see the outcome the actual decision my mind has already decided to make.

I find it comforting knowing that he knows the decision and the outcome, and thus if I listen to the holy spirit he is able to guide, persuade, me into a different path should the decision I am going to make not be beneficial.

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I don't see how free agency could exist without free will. I'm really new to the concepts of open theism, but if they are what I think they are then it comes down to this:

God ultimately does not know what choices we will make.

I believe, God may know all of the possible choices we may make, He will have set limitations as far as what we can choose to do, He can also know the ultimate conclusion of mankind. But when it comes to choice he doesn't know.

I agree if he did I would have assumed he would have known and steered me away from the whole neo pagan thing.

I think ultimately the choice is mine from what I eat to what religious path I go down. And I don't really think he knows anymore about my path then I do.

Say tomorrow I nearly get run over by a bus, by all accounts I should have died and I have a sort of awakening. God saved me, for whatever reason. Then what? Do I come home, see my "Wicca, A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner" on my desk and pour my newfound belief into that? Or do I come here and talk to you all and go to an LDS church, read the Book of Mormon, etc, or do I pass by the Catholic one on my way home and go in there...

And further more on that, did God guide me to that and did he know it would happen, if I became a Wiccan did he guide me to do that, even though some would say I am straying from God.

If he knew what I was going to do, why would he guide me the wrong way?

That's just what I think...

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Yes it does. You lost your free agency the day you got married. :)

But setting that aside, Jerome's response has always been how I see it. I see why folks get hung up on whether we can surprise God or not, as an indicator of free agency , but I've never been able to follow them there totally.

MoE.... This might just be one of my favorite things of all time.

Fair warning; Im officially co-opting it. As it takes my (50 words where 1 would suffice) explanation & shortens it to "Don't have to surprise God".

B)

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I know nothing about theism. just commenting on this other topic brought up.

God knows before hand what we will do. He has a set plan for each of us. He knew how each of us would fail. BUT there is a law in heaven whereby all may learn to grow and increase. This plan involves what he set us to do. We than used our agency and altered that plan for ourselves. He knew beforehand what and how it would change. But had to set up the learning enviroment perfectly due to the law even knowing it would change. thus our life will be created to learn what he setup for us AND learn what he already knew we would fail in so that we can "repent" of those things and never do them again.

Now while I believe that. There is an possibility our agency caused problems in God plan (if you believe he doesn't know the outcomes we will make than this is very likely). Thus many worlds could have come and go thus having to be entirely remade because it failed its intended purpose. What if Christ sined once and decided to become peridtion? Well everything would be void and God would start over in some way or form. What if NO people ever are worthy or obedient enough to build up zion? Some people think this about the dinosaurs era.

These are the questions that come up when God doesn't know the outcomes. If you say he doesn't know what decisions we will make only an infinite set of them than how would he create a plan where he knows the end of the worlds outcome? He could try to use angels to fix outcomes but what if the people still decide to disobey? Maybe each "dispensation" he keeps sending more and more righteous people enough it "just" works out? I really think God knows what will be or how would we even be able to prophecy in his name? Of course there are some that failed to due disobedience.

But the laws of heaven are there and ALL things are based off them. Everything revolves around those laws. Our outcomes will determine how those laws will affect us now and the next life. This life was affected by our past life.

Edited by ElectofGod
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I believe that God does know the choices we will make. He knew from the beginning how we would use our agency and, more importantly, how those choices would shape us into who we would become. But we had to come to earth and see for ourselves! Also, God could not fairly judge us before mortality based upon his foreknowledge.

I believe that in the end we will stand before God and recognize that who we became is exactly as he had foreseen. This in no way diminishes our agency, but will ultimately prove God's omniscience and will also testify regarding the greatness of the Plan of Salvation made possible through the grace of Christ's atonement.

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One's wife does not "know" you will put your shoes on the table for a certainty. She can only anticipate it from previous experience. In a free will case, God could not perfectly know the future, but only anticipate it, and interact when necessary to ensure his will comes to pass in the end.

There's an interesting new book by Adam S. Miller, Speculative Grace, which suggests God is not all omniscient and all powerful as some believe, but instead is also involved in the process of being. It does tie in with Open Theism nicely, I believe.

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I think a lot of divine attributes we grant or theorize about are given out of idealism. If my father knew about everything I will do, or the limitless choices that I could or could or could not make, I think his life would be unduly burdened. If God was once as we were and we can become as he is, then I really don't think he should be burdened with countless choices or children asking every 10 seconds about what they should do. My own faith in God depends on how I believe and how I believe defines my idea of what God is.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." After hearing that, Bender got it, despite being a prodigal bending bot.

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I agree if he did I would have assumed he would have known and steered me away from the whole neo pagan thing.

If he knew what I was going to do, why would he guide me the wrong way?

That's just what I think...

There are laws regarding accountability.

If my teenager wanted to start to live on her own because she wanted to gain the experience of actually living on her own and to develop the knowledge of how to do that then I couldn't allow her to do it and at the same time say, "okay you can do it but I will move in with you and make every choice for you".

If God really wants to teach us right from wrong then there has to be accountability. To have accountability He needs to let us make choices and suffer the consequences of those choices. This is why free agency means nothing without accountability.

Also, like having the gutters blocked while bowling, the magnitude of the achievement is lessened and therefore the goal of learning is ruined by the intervention. John 20:29 " 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." There is a value to passing the test without being told every step. Of course there are helps along the way.

One more thing to consider, we believe that all here on Earth know the truth, we all passed the first estate test. In other words, the right answer to the choices one face is within you. The test is more about where one prefers to go to find the answers, the world or the spirit? The restriction of having access to the answers is something we do to our self.

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I think a lot of divine attributes we grant or theorize about are given out of idealism. If my father knew about everything I will do, or the limitless choices that I could or could or could not make, I think his life would be unduly burdened. If God was once as we were and we can become as he is, then I really don't think he should be burdened with countless choices or children asking every 10 seconds about what they should do. My own faith in God depends on how I believe and how I believe defines my idea of what God is.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." After hearing that, Bender got it, despite being a prodigal bending bot.

He isn't burdened by countless choices because countless choices is not the way. Like the iron rod versus the multiple winding pathways in the mist there is only one way. And the one way, He has already provided.

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I don't see how free agency could exist without free will. I'm really new to the concepts of open theism, but if they are what I think they are then it comes down to this:

God ultimately does not know what choices we will make.

I believe, God may know all of the possible choices we may make, He will have set limitations as far as what we can choose to do, He can also know the ultimate conclusion of mankind. But when it comes to choice he doesn't know.

In part the question is: Does G-d know our will?

Sometimes from these discussion I wonder if certain posters believe that individual will exist as part of our "eternal character" or eternal identity. If a person has free will then I would think by definition what we are talking about is something that is free from outside forces acting on the individual. Something that is at the very core of what makes a certain person an individual.

As I contemplate free will - it is difficult for me to imagine that free will would express itself according to circumstance. If that was the case - I am not sure one could argue that it was free will but rather the choice was changed by forces outside the control or free expression of the individual. Therefor the only way I can understand that free will or a choice might change is through the process of learning.

But in learning - I am not sure that our free will changes but rather our understanding of a particular choice because we did not understand all the ramifications of a previously uninformed choice. If our understanding of a choice or expression of our free will has not changed - I do not believe that in actual exercise of free will - that our choices will ever or can ever change.

I do not see any problem with G-d knowing in advance of our mortal existence how we will express our free will.

In fact from my LDS understanding of a pre-existance and the eternal nature of our spiritual light and intelligence - it is not difficult for me to imagine that my free agency is a part of my eternal nature and character and that I, with G-d, understood my choices that would be made and the learning process I would encounter in life because of my free will and agency before I was born.

For those that are worried about "determinism" - how much of an impact will your previous experiences of learning and individual will - will alter who you are and the choices you will make in the next 5 minutes or 5 days or 5 years or 5 decades or ever?

Or as the caterpillar asked Alice -- Who are you?

The Traveler

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I don't see how free agency could exist without free will. I'm really new to the concepts of open theism, but if they are what I think they are then it comes down to this:

God ultimately does not know what choices we will make.

I believe, God may know all of the possible choices we may make, He will have set limitations as far as what we can choose to do, He can also know the ultimate conclusion of mankind. But when it comes to choice he doesn't know.

I'm not ready to give up on the notion of an all knowing God; and I don't believe the reality of us living in a world with free agency requires that I do.

Did I miss the argument that these two concepts cannot coexist?

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It is a very philosophical discussion that goes way beyond what most on this list can easily do in just very short posts. I suggest you read Blake Ostler's first book on the Attributes of God. It discusses the concepts in depth, which include the concept of, if God knows everything, then there is no libertarian free will, but there is a Calvinist predestination. There is a compelling case for a God that does not know everything. Then, there are in between concepts, such as semi-compatibilism, or the concept that man's free will is only partially free. To have a good discussion on it, would first require everyone to do a lot of homework, such as reading Blake's first volume on God's attributes.

That said, I'm agnostic. I don't know how much God really knows. Nor do any of us really know. We just know he knows more than we do. And until it is revealed, we'll be just guessing as to free will and omniscience.

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It is a very philosophical discussion that goes way beyond what most on this list can easily do in just very short posts. I suggest you read Blake Ostler's first book on the Attributes of God. It discusses the concepts in depth, which include the concept of, if God knows everything, then there is no libertarian free will, but there is a Calvinist predestination. There is a compelling case for a God that does not know everything. Then, there are in between concepts, such as semi-compatibilism, or the concept that man's free will is only partially free. To have a good discussion on it, would first require everyone to do a lot of homework, such as reading Blake's first volume on God's attributes.

That said, I'm agnostic. I don't know how much God really knows. Nor do any of us really know. We just know he knows more than we do. And until it is revealed, we'll be just guessing as to free will and omniscience.

I'm sure it has all been spoken of before and maybe Blake Ostler's book addresses this, but I don't see how foreknowledge by a Godly third party removes my free will.

The best argument I have heard against the concept of free will comes from atheists who ask, "Is it really free will if the wrong decision results in a sure damnation." To which I reply, "Life in Christ remains a choice and a means to avoid damnation."

Without the Law of Accountability established in Noah, we are no better than the animals in His creation. It seems clear that our human existence is of a higher order or calling than that of the animal kingdom, yet we are free to deny that our being of this higher order is a gift from God. He gave us a life and a spirit like His own and told us we are heirs to a Godly Kingdom, yet we are free to live this mortality no more or better than animals do.

Without the pending Judgment of God we have no promise of attaining His Glory. The animals are not judged and they have no promise of Godhood. If anyone wishes to ignore these truths, they are free to do so. But the promise is withdrawn; and we attain only that which our choices allow.

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One's wife does not "know" you will put your shoes on the table for a certainty. She can only anticipate it from previous experience. In a free will case, God could not perfectly know the future, but only anticipate it, and interact when necessary to ensure his will comes to pass in the end.

I think that's actually the root of my thought process. I believe God knows each of us perfectly and intimately, and therefore knows what decisions we will make. Where the wife's knowledge is limited by her mortal and fallen state, God's is not.

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Jerome, your thought may make a difference on what God actually knows of the future, and what he can anticipate of the future. Does he know the future in detail, and if so, how far into the future? I've noticed that in several prophecies in the scriptures, they are rather specific in events soon to occur, but get vague the further out they get (D&C 87). Is that intentional by God, or is it because he does not know the future as perfectly as we think sometimes?

Bensalem, If God perfectly knows the future, then all of our decisions are already set in stone. We cannot change the future, because it is already decided. God cannot change how he will respond to our situations, because he already knows ahead of time what it is that he will do. God cannot forgive us, if he has already seen in the future that he will not do so. For there to be a change, means the future is still open, and God does not know the future. Our future is predetermined, and so Calvin's predestination comes into play: we have no free will, because everything is already decided before we make any choices. This is the short version, of which you really need to read the longer version to get all of the details and nuances.

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Jerome, your thought may make a difference on what God actually knows of the future, and what he can anticipate of the future. Does he know the future in detail, and if so, how far into the future? I've noticed that in several prophecies in the scriptures, they are rather specific in events soon to occur, but get vague the further out they get (D&C 87). Is that intentional by God, or is it because he does not know the future as perfectly as we think sometimes?

I don't have an answer to that, my instinct is that a perfect knowledge doesn't get cloudy because of distance (time). You're taking it one step further than I have ever considered.

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