Fat hate


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Are you saying that you'd be okay with your children shunning the heavier me, as long as it was because of my choices? As long as they show compassion to the big person who they know has problems?

Yes, they don't have to associate with people whose activities are not in common with theirs or who will be a bad influence to them. It's the same for any other lifestyle choices that is their standard. That's like... standard parenting instruction. Take note of the use of the phrase "don't have to". They can if they want, of course, as long as they remain true to their standards and respect is maintained in the relationship. If they choose to hang out with people who misuse drugs, I might have to put my foot down, as there are plenty of drug misusers who not only harm themselves but harm others to afford the next dose.

Maybe we have a disconnect on the word Shun. If you choose not to associate with these people is that shunning? The way I understand the word Shun, the answer is yes.

Edited by anatess
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Since when are poor choices sins? Not ever in anything I have ever read or heard in the gospel. Poor choices are most often nothing to do with sin.

I understand that. I was using a commonly used quote to illustrate the relationship. I apologize for misusing a quote.

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Yes, they don't have to associate with people whose activities are not in common with theirs or who will be a bad influence to them. It's the same for any other lifestyle choices that is their standard. That's like... standard parenting instruction. Take note of the use of the phrase "don't have to". They can if they want, of course, as long as they remain true to their standards and respect is maintained in the relationship. If they choose to hang out with people who misuse drugs, I might have to put my foot down, as there are plenty of drug misusers who not only harm themselves but harm others to afford the next dose.

Maybe we have a disconnect on the word Shun. If you choose not to associate with these people is that shunning? The way I understand the word Shun, the answer is yes.

No one has to associate with others as friends. Any one who bases friendship on size is no friend of mine. If I weighed 110 pounds they would not be friends of mine. Superficial people are never going to be good friends. Of anyone.

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How else would you define "shun"?

I agree with anne. If I'm not good enough to be your friend when I'm 40 pounds overweight, you're not good enough to be my friend when I'm a healthy weight. Your loss.

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I can not believe you would say something so totally offensive. People who are overweight are people that it is ok to teach your kids to avoid because they do not live up to your standards? Are you serious?

Geesh, is this another "I don't understand Anatess' English day???" Read all my posts please. I never once said that all people who are overweight are people that is okay to avoid. My very first post addressed being fat as a product of poor choices that Eowyn was talking about.

For example - a kid who does nothing much but play video games and down Big Macs would probably end up fat. My kids are not allowed to play video games except for a few hours on Saturday and they are taught to eat at McDonald's only as an occasional don't-have-time-for-real-food situation. They may not have much in common with the kid, and the kid may pose a bad influence on my children if they now then think eating Big Macs everyday is a good thing. Yes, they don't have to associate with the kid if they don't want to go through the hassle of having to constantly bolster up their own standards.

And in another post that I made on this thread, I specifically said that you can't decide whether one's weight is a product of bad choices just by looking at them. One has to know the person first and balance their choices with their own standards that is based on D&C 89.

Edited by anatess
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And this is a prime example of how people are effectively gagged by making it about - oh, you can't say these poor choices are bad because, it might just be a medical condition. It's a very common reaction in WoW discussions and people who talk against poor choices are made to feel small for talking bad about fat people.

There's medical condition and there's poor choices and additionally, there's medical condition caused by poor choices. I am talking specifically about poor choices.

Edited by anatess
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Here is a good "for instance":

Mike Jeffries, Abercrombie CEO, Reportedly Hates Fat Customers, Only Wants ‘Thin And Beautiful People’

I'm in the best shape of my life, but can't quite shop there because I'm not thin enough to fit the "cool" image. And A&F is more successful than they've ever been.

Rather ironic because I think Mike Jeffries is extremely homely himself.

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Public scorn can be a healthy thing.

Sorry but I see nothing healthy about being publically scorned. To me it can fall into the same category as bullying.

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Sorry but I see nothing healthy about being publically scorned. To me it can fall into the same category as bullying.

Okay, maybe this is another English Word that I am misusing. Scorn = contempt, yes? Contempt = angry disapproval which is a shade heavier than just plain disapproval, yes? I can hold you in contempt like a judge would to a prosecutor without having to be a bully about it, yes?

I see two LDS youth making out in public, I can feel contempt, no?

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Okay, maybe this is another English Word that I am misusing. Scorn = contempt, yes? Contempt = angry disapproval which is a shade heavier than just plain disapproval, yes? I can hold you in contempt like a judge would to a prosecutor without having to be a bully about it, yes?

I see two LDS youth making out in public, I can put them in contempt, no?

So you would publically hold or put someone in contempt because they were overweight? Why would you do it publically?

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So you would publically hold or put someone in contempt because they were overweight? Why would you do it publically?

Ahh... there's the source of the misunderstanding...

Public scorn = Scorned by the Public.

not = Scorned Publicly.

Of course, whatever you feel will more than likely manifest itself in how you act... for example, avoidance.

And if I haven't made myself clear in the many posts I have tried to clarify myself... I did not say all overweight people. I responded to Eowyn's post specifically addressing poor choices (more than likely gluttony or lack of physical activity or poor education on proper nutrition) leading to overweight people. And then, on that same paragraph that you quoted, I specifically said that a common problem with the public is that they do not follow the principle of loving the person but hating the..... poor choices.

Edited by anatess
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I think a whole lot of people either never knew or totally forgot about not suppose to judge others. I bet if more people didn't judge others the world would be a whole lot nicer :D

Talisyn..please don't judge me because I judge people differently than you. :P

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I've been watching this discussion all day, and decided it's my turn to throw in my two cents.

From a medical viewpoint, I would be considered obese. I don't make great food choices, a lot of my meals are quick-and-easy. I live by myself and most nights don't want to bother making an entire meal. Do I know better? Absolutely. But knowing and doing are two totally different areas. Now add into this that I have genetics(hypothyroidism) and medication(anti-depressants) working against me. Both of these make it hard to lose/keep off weight. In fact, my medication is known to make people gain weight. I walk most places(I don't have a driver's license). I climb stairs(living on the third floor of a building with no elevator). I also have two or three vertebrae that are sitting on top of each other, making it hard for me to stand in one position for long periods of time.

So anatess--would I be one your kids should not associate with? Because I make poor food choices? Or would you have your kids look past that because I have medical issues that affect my weight as well? If you judge me because you percieve I make poor choices, then am I able to judge you with the same standard? It's not in any of our places to make the judgement. You talk about loving people beyond their choices, but that you may choose not to associate with people who make choices different than you. How then do you show Christ's love to those who may have a different worldview than you?

When I joined the church, I lost numerous friends, some were the ones who had the biggest influence on me as a child, others that were college friends. They chose not to associate with me, simply because I made, what was in their eyes, a poor choice. Say I were to leave the church, would you shun me because I made, what may be in your eyes, a poor choice?

Do any of these factors make me less of a person? I hope not. I hope people can look beyond the obvious and see what kind of person I actually am. If they can't, then I don't want to be their friend, because they are only befriending what they can see, not what is beneath the surface.

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I think Heavenly Father would be more pleased with us if we "loved" over weight and obese people. Even through the poor choices. Because what those people need is love, encouragement and befriended. Rather than "shun" them, help them. Reminds me of this quote: “Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.”

― Jesse Jackson

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Teresa

I've never met anyone who didn't make poor choices. Be it fat or something else. But the poor choices was their choice. Didn't affect how I felt about them. And in my heart being shunned is the last thing they need. Are we not taught to love all as Jesus does? Would he want us saying, "I'm sorry, I can't hang out with you. Your fat and you either make poor choices or have a good medical reason. I know were all different and have a different out look about how we feel about things. I come from a mix in my family. There's tooth picks and there's obese. I wouldn't trade hanging out with them for the world. Despite the over eaters cause they love food, their some of the best people in the world. It doesn't affect how they are as a person. Not to me anyway. My grandmother, one of my hero's. She was over weight, and she'd be the first to admit, through poor choices. But those who knew her couldn't love her anymore if they tried. She was an angel on earth. She taught me baking, sewing, (tried crocheting, but never got it :lol:) she taught me to love unconditionally for my fellow man. She was over weight, but she was more than that. And I'm thankful as an over weight person :P that I learned a lot from her. She set a great example for me as well as my parents in growing up. I guess what I'm saying is, just because your over weight and it's because of poor choices, doesn't mean were bad examples to hang around with. There is more to us than meets the eye. Look a little closer and you'll find we have something to offer.

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For example - a kid who does nothing much but play video games and down Big Macs would probably end up fat.

So, due to the way his parents are raising him, you would not let your kids be friends and perhaps expose him to healthier habits?

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And if I haven't made myself clear in the many posts I have tried to clarify myself... I did not say all overweight people.

And to repeat other people's posts: how do you know why someone is overweight? If you (or your kids) don't take the opportunity to get to know them first, you have absolutely no way to know if they are worthy of your scorn and shunning or not.

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I'm glad we've established that being overweight or obese isn't a sin. I still have my doubts about the claim that's getting touted that poor choices that might lead one to obesity are a sin. I don't exercise enough, and I eat more junk food than I should. Are those poor choices? Sure, I'll give you that. But if I continued to do that and maintain my current (normal) body weight, would it keep me out of God's presence? If you can answer yes to that question, then we have very different ideas about God, but at least you're consistent.

If your answer is no--if you think that my eating habits won't keep me out of God's presence--how then can you say that an obese person is living in sin if they share the same eating habits I do? Are they being penalized for having bad genes or dispositions? Or are you just assigning sin where you find unpleasantness?

Wingnut makes a really good point--you can't evaluate a person's lifestyle choices by the BMI. To say to your children "you don't have to associate with people who don't share your standards" as a way of telling them they don't have to associate with fat people if they don't want to is making a lot of assumptions about their choices and motivations--and that kind of behavior, I would dare say, is closer to sin than obesity.

The only way you can know if a person's weight is related to their lifestyle choices is to get to associate with the person long enough to get to know them. I imagine that when you do that, you find that once you know their personality better, you'll either choose to associate with them despite their bad lifestyle choices* (because you like them), or you'll choose to disassociate with them for reasons having nothing to do with their lifestyle choices* (because you don't like their personality). Either way, once you get to know them, those lifestyle choices that led to their obesity start to become irrelevant.

* That led to their obesity

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i couldn't resist this thread and i feel like there are valid points from both sides. My profession is to judge people and tell them what they need to change to maintain their health, lose weight, get in shape. Since I've started i have seen countless "obese" people completely transform themselves overcoming numerous obstacles because they had the drive to do so. I have never once "hated" or "shunned" them and have always treated them with kindness, however, when they come to me i won't hesitate to tell them they are fat and need to change their lifestyle/diet in a particular way. It may sound harsh or rude but i don't think any one of them wouldn't thank me now. Seeing someone timidly walk into the gym afraid of what to do or say and then 4 months later seeing them jog into the gym looking leaner with a giant smile on their face is incredibly rewarding. I currently have an overweight client who is battling sleep apnea, diabetes, and hypothyroidism. He has completely changed his diet, never misses a session, and i have yet to do a weigh in where he hasn't been shredding weight despite having his medical issues. I'm excited to see where he will be in 4 months if he keeps this up and to see if his diabetes and sleep apnea subside. so even though i do not hate fat people i do judge because that is what i do for a living, i also believe if someone was truly dedicated to their health, diet, and fitness they would inherently see the changes they wanted despite any obstacle.

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So in short, why is fat hate okay, especially in a culture that pushes so much diversity and live-and-let-live philosophy?

Because most of us believe we have a weight problem, and that we could lose 5-10% and look and feel a lot better. We find this hard to do and feel guilty and foolish about it.

Then, we see someone who obviously could lose 20% plus and we think, "Wow...at least I'm not that bad." Then self-righteousness and condescension slip into our spirits with demonic glee, and we succumb to a nasty sin.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTULdSP0_0F38_Pw5GhOH06_VTwPOzzNCX-HXtFiTIAsP1Ty_TGqO43nrHnkw

Edited by prisonchaplain
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Then, we see someone who obviously could lose 20% plus and we think, "Wow...at least I'm not that bad." Then self-righteousness and condescension slip into our spirits with demonic glee, and we succumb to a nasty sin.

You are actually very correct there, to hate someone (or to think you are better than someone) due to their appearance is the only sin in this whole discussion.

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