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I was putting myself in the place of our prison psychologists. They see people with personality disorders, some who may be suicidal, some who are claiming mental illnesses, and some who are just obnoxious individuals. Through all that, they sometimes find people that are truly stuck in their heads. The thinking is off. They may be depressed, bipolar, or schizophrenic. I'm recalling my internship days at a prison mental hospital unit.

All this got me to thinking, how does this fit with our view of the world? As an evangelical, I basically think that the Fall, with the introduction of the rebellion's curse (the corruption of nature, with resulting sickness, disasters, and death), and think Adam and Eve's sin was truly wretched--and I have inherited that predisposition--and must battle it daily.

I'm not sure how the LDS view--that this life is a valiant test of our agency--interprets mental illness and some of the horrific unfairness in the world. It's an age old question--why do bad things happen to 'good' people

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I was putting myself in the place of our prison psychologists. They see people with personality disorders, some who may be suicidal, some who are claiming mental illnesses, and some who are just obnoxious individuals. Through all that, they sometimes find people that are truly stuck in their heads. The thinking is off. They may be depressed, bipolar, or schizophrenic. I'm recalling my internship days at a prison mental hospital unit.

All this got me to thinking, how does this fit with our view of the world? As an evangelical, I basically think that the Fall, with the introduction of the rebellion's curse (the corruption of nature, with resulting sickness, disasters, and death), and think Adam and Eve's sin was truly wretched--and I have inherited that predisposition--and must battle it daily.

I'm not sure how the LDS view--that this life is a valiant test of our agency--interprets mental illness and some of the horrific unfairness in the world. It's an age old question--why do bad things happen to 'good' people

2 Nephi 2

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2 Nephi 2 explains the LDS view of Genesis 3 well. I'm still left perplexed about the mentally ill.

I found this part expecially helpful:

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

So, by faith, this scripture would be so for you. Any thoughts on how this works for those who are truly mentally ill...the schizophrenic or the clinically depressed, etc.? Some here have battled this maladies, and might have thoughts...if any feel this is a safe place to do so.
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I think that culturally we've been a little slow to accept mental illness as illness, on a large scale. In other words, only in the last few years are we hearing about things like depression from our leaders in a context other than "if you're sad, pray more".

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People treat mental illness as a communicable disease and therefore it needs to be shunned in their mind for their own safety. With schizophrenics lumped in with someone who had their cat die last week, its no wonder that people regard anyone admitting to mental illness as dangerous, despite that everyone is suffering from mental illness or will be suffering at some point in their life. Definitions of mental illness vary, according to our expectations of social norms, so within the church setting, there is no place for illness within social cliches, because as people would love to remind others, there is no issues if you only believe in God and practice his teachings.

Mental illness is not necessarily curable and if anything can be the balance for brilliance. John Nash, can tell you all about that. Sometimes, its more important to accept someone or ourselves as is, than believing that they must operate under our assumptions. The resources for caring for mentally ill people are extremely scarce, as generally speaking, it takes a lifetime to treat most severe mental illnesses and within the prison system, resources are scarce and there is not much sympathy as most people assume, they committed a crime and only deserve punishment.

Edited by Praetorian_Brow
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Mental illness seems to be covered by the Atonement. Just like in 2 Nephi 2 I think? Or Mosiah 3?(dont have scriptures handy) Essentially those that their minds are not in a position to hear and understand the Gospel because they can't get out of their heads as you mentioned PC.

I think there are many people in our world that suffer from mental stresses and other things that inhibit our ability to make good decisions and so forth. How many times have you snapped at someone because you didn't get enough sleep or eat enough food?

And so your body takes a little control because of poor planning or decision making on your part. So I think there are a number of things that we can do to help our mental health be strong.

The main problem I see is when we ourselves make excuses for our bad decisions and say I didn't do A because I have this "disorder" which in reality isn't a disorder, it's just you aren't taking care of your mental health.

Another excuse line is, "this is the way I am since I was young." I think some of that is I was young and I let my mind go out of control. I didn't DISCIPLINE myself. And now I can't get any control so therefore it must be who I am. satan's lie on that one. People change if they have faith and believe in God, and are always seeking for more knowledge. You might not have the answer today as to why you behave but maybe you learn that you are celiac and that is why your body doesnt function the way it should, or you learn that you are lactose intolerant, and so on and then leave that out of your diet becaise you respect the gift that God has given you.

Our world makes too many excuses and try to drop all responsibiility. Now, there are many people who sincerely have mental illness or trials that have been clinically proven. Yes that is a trial that will have to be endured with God's help. And my heart goes out to them. But not to the people who feign illness or try to manipulate and get their way because they are too lazy to accept responsibility. (though I suppose that Christ's heart still reaches out to them and so I should be like that, but I am not that good obviously.)

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I think part of this depends on what is being called a mental illness. The world calls a lot of things mental illness that I don't believe are in the lord's eyes. I do believe they exist and can make life harder but it's not an "illness". May need accommodations but not "treatment" or "cures".

I have learning disabilities. It's not an illness and in a lot of ways makes me better. I have some children with Asperger's. It's not an illness and in a lot of ways makes them better. They are not broken and don't need fixing.

I have a family member that suffered serious abuse as a child, she developed multiple personalities as a result. That needed fixing, but really the "fixing" came from dealing with the abuse she suffered. However, ironically, before she was diagnosed she had cancer and the dr's were astounded at her ability to function through the treatments. It was because of her multiples she was able to survive the cancer as well as she did.

I don't believe the lord gives ppl their mental issues, that is part of the imperfections of this world. But I do believe with proper treatment and efforts to follow him he can make great things come from it. I think the lord does understand mental issues as a reason for mercy and understanding but I do not believe it's an excuse to do evil anymore than he accepts the natural man as an excuse. Yes he loves us for who we are but not as we are. Every commandment out there is about change. We came here to change, to become like him. We are commanded to rise above what we are and become more, that mighty change of heart. We may spend our whole lives trying and due to mental illness never be successful but the effort will be rewarded the same.

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despite that everyone is suffering from mental illness or will be suffering at some point in their life.

What? Not everyone suffers from or will suffer from mental illness, unless you lump everyone whose cat died and is sad as being mentally ill. Which is something you complained about in your post.

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It dawns on me that part of the process of accepting the gospel in LDS teaching is the time after we die. Is there any instruction, or informed speculation, that those who suffer from mental illnesses or developmental delays that keep them from making informed choices will have those hindrances removed in the afterlife?

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I was putting myself in the place of our prison psychologists. They see people with personality disorders, some who may be suicidal, some who are claiming mental illnesses, and some who are just obnoxious individuals. Through all that, they sometimes find people that are truly stuck in their heads. The thinking is off. They may be depressed, bipolar, or schizophrenic. I'm recalling my internship days at a prison mental hospital unit.

All this got me to thinking, how does this fit with our view of the world? As an evangelical, I basically think that the Fall, with the introduction of the rebellion's curse (the corruption of nature, with resulting sickness, disasters, and death), and think Adam and Eve's sin was truly wretched--and I have inherited that predisposition--and must battle it daily.

I'm not sure how the LDS view--that this life is a valiant test of our agency--interprets mental illness and some of the horrific unfairness in the world. It's an age old question--why do bad things happen to 'good' people

Very Good Questions!!! The scriptures tell us that G-d is no respecter of persons. I believe that such plays out in the challenges that each individual faces as well as the blessings we seem to inherit.

I think you are correct to bring in the concepts of Free Will and Agency into the question as well. I was wondering how Evangelicals resolve these dilemmas of human differences in light of G-d providing for all what is provided for one or any.

LDS doctrine allows for understanding that each of us existed with our own individuality and that decisions and choices (Agency and Free Will) before birth have influence on the variety of challenges we face in this life. For example it has been suggested that some were so valiant in opposing Satan's rebellion in heaven that they were "blessed" in this life with various forms of mental illness in order to prevent Satan from being able to retaliate. So the thought is not always that mental illness is a curse but there is a possibility that it could be a blessing as well.

The concept of individual personality existing before our birth will explain, at least in part, the vast differences in life circumstance as well as "personality" and also fully allow that G-d is not a respecter of persons.

The Traveler

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It dawns on me that part of the process of accepting the gospel in LDS teaching is the time after we die. Is there any instruction, or informed speculation, that those who suffer from mental illnesses or developmental delays that keep them from making informed choices will have those hindrances removed in the afterlife?

Yes - however, there is not currently an effort to do their proxy work for such things as baptism. Some speculate that the 1,000 year millennium will be use to complete the saving ordinances necessary for individuals that seem to fall through the otherwise cracks.

The Traveler

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As for those of us evangelicals who embrace the doctrine of free will (Calvinists do not, btw), this problem of mental illness--along with the more general 'what if they never heard?' is one that offers informed speculation, but no strong answers. Some say that it's our job to let them hear, so we must be urgent in missions (i.e. too bad, if they didn't hear). Others believe that general revelation (the witness of nature and the physical demonstrations of God) are enough--that God can judge every soul based on how they respond to what they do know. I'm somewhat in this latter camp, though I rest in my certainty that God is indeed just. We do not accept the idea of chances after death because we do not have your revelations, and we interpret the scripture in Hebrews that says it's appointed to us once to die and then the judgment to not allow conversions after dying.

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As for those of us evangelicals who embrace the doctrine of free will (Calvinists do not, btw), this problem of mental illness--along with the more general 'what if they never heard?' is one that offers informed speculation, but no strong answers. Some say that it's our job to let them hear, so we must be urgent in missions (i.e. too bad, if they didn't hear). Others believe that general revelation (the witness of nature and the physical demonstrations of God) are enough--that God can judge every soul based on how they respond to what they do know. I'm somewhat in this latter camp, though I rest in my certainty that God is indeed just. We do not accept the idea of chances after death because we do not have your revelations, and we interpret the scripture in Hebrews that says it's appointed to us once to die and then the judgment to not allow conversions after dying.

"Death" is the separation of us from God. Those in spirit prison are still dead in that sense, they are still in the second estate test.

Also, all of us have a "mental illness" of sorts. We do not have a perfect body with a perfect brain. We forget, we are driven by primitive drives of hunger, thirst, sleepiness, sexual drives etc. Even the apostles couldn't overcome the drive to sleep while in the Garden. The "mental illness" is just a matter of degree. When I fast my body still says "eat" which goes contrary to what my spirit wants to do. When I give my tithing or fast offering my mentally ill brain says 'you could really use that money on your self'. We partake of the sacrament every week because our mentally ill brain easily forgets. By taking on His flesh and blood we maintain the hope to overcome this mental illness and receive a body like His. Where much is given much is expected but we all fall on that spectrum of 'mental illness', somewhere. We all have a veil that causes us to forget what we have previously learned. This is what allows God to make a judgement of quality of character as opposed to the quantity of things learned. The quantity of things learned was the first estate test.

How do you account for one who develops Alzheimer's and forgets everything learned and may even denounce what they previously testified? We are not judged by our final attestation in this life but what is in our heart (spirit self), which only God can fully see.

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It dawns on me that part of the process of accepting the gospel in LDS teaching is the time after we die. Is there any instruction, or informed speculation, that those who suffer from mental illnesses or developmental delays that keep them from making informed choices will have those hindrances removed in the afterlife?

We also believe that those who die without the challenge of choice have already been judged worthy to enter into the Celestial Kingdom such as those who die before the age of 8 and those that have Down's syndrome etc. No further testing is required.

There may be some others that have such a severe mental illness that they cannot really reason in this life and may fall into a similar category.

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I'm not sure how the LDS view--that this life is a valiant test of our agency--interprets mental illness and some of the horrific unfairness in the world. It's an age old question--why do bad things happen to 'good' people

I suppose I am simple-minded. All I see out of all of this is that we always attempt to judge others (not really in a bad way...just try to foretell their judgments); what I firmly believe to be just the way our minds work. What if...what if...what if...

Rather than begin typing on that accord and appear a total fool I have a simple comment about the "age old question". I KNOW I'm right on this one.

Bad things do not "happen" to "good" people. What and who we are today is a direct result of a lifetime of choices. Some good. Some bad. "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—" D&C 130:20

The flip side is just as simple. We are not punished FOR our sins, we are punished BY our sins. Bad things happen because of choices we have made.

I made that comment once in Relief Society and it really offended one of the sisters. She immediately shot back with, "My dad died last week. Tell me how that was my choice." As kindly as I could, I pointed out to her that her father's death had nothing to do with her at all. It was between her father and the Lord. It was all about HIM, not her. We spoke later that day and resolved it all. Knowing the truth of situations doesn't make them any easier to handle. It just takes out the "woe is me" factor.

I think way too often we get into a mode where we think that everything that happens, when it affects us in some way, is about us, when in reality it isn't. We are just somewhere in the mix because of our relationships.

I don't believe much in that old age question, "why do bad things happen to good people".

I do believe strongly in continue moving forward...it will all work out in the end. And if it hasn't worked out yet, well, it aint the end of it yet :D

Edited by Letrell
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We also believe that those who die without the challenge of choice have already been judged worthy to enter into the Celestial Kingdom such as those who die before the age of 8 and those that have Down's syndrome etc. No further testing is required.

There may be some others that have such a severe mental illness that they cannot really reason in this life and may fall into a similar category.

Would I find this in Gospel Principles, or where...because your answer sounds like its basic doctrine and well-defined.

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As for those of us evangelicals who embrace the doctrine of free will (Calvinists do not, btw), this problem of mental illness--along with the more general 'what if they never heard?' is one that offers informed speculation, but no strong answers. Some say that it's our job to let them hear, so we must be urgent in missions (i.e. too bad, if they didn't hear). Others believe that general revelation (the witness of nature and the physical demonstrations of God) are enough--that God can judge every soul based on how they respond to what they do know. I'm somewhat in this latter camp, though I rest in my certainty that God is indeed just. We do not accept the idea of chances after death because we do not have your revelations, and we interpret the scripture in Hebrews that says it's appointed to us once to die and then the judgment to not allow conversions after dying.

This is all interesting and thought provoking to me. If I understand you response correctly - you, like me, do not feel that you have a clear picture of the results because so many pieces of the puzzle seem to be missing (or out of place). A couple of pieces - Jesus healed a wide spectrum of aliments - and mental illness seems to be included.

What is interesting to me is that Jesus taught that it is the same to heal a person as to forgive them of their sins. I know many are quite offended if there is any reference to being healed of any malady (physical or mental) as being forgiven of their sins because even innocent children suffer both physical and mental illness and certainly we should not condemn someone for being ill?

So I have a couple of questions concerning Evangelicals. First: do Evangelicals believe the mental ill can be healed by faith as radially as a person suffering a physical ailment? And is to be healed of such a forgiveness of sins?

Second question: How do Evangelicals reconcile that G-d is no respecter of persons - yet we are not all (in reality) created equal or the same by him? Is this in essence a piece missing from your puzzle?

The Traveler

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Letrell, I largely, and perhaps completely agree that bad things are a result of sin. However, most often, the sin is not my own, or that of the one suffering. A child born addicted to crack cocaine suffers because of the sin of another. Starving children are often the result of sinful government leaders. And again, natural disasters began to develop when the earth was cursed (Gen 3). So, yes, bad things happen because of sin--not always our own, though.

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So I have a couple of questions concerning Evangelicals. First: do Evangelicals believe the mental ill can be healed by faith as radially as a person suffering a physical ailment? And is to be healed of such a forgiveness of sins?

The doctrine that there is healing in the atonement is one held by my church, but not all--even amongst evangelicals. My own answer is yes, that in Isaiah 53:3-5 we see healing brought by Messiah that is spiritual (forgiveness of sin), emotional/psychological (peace), and physical (by his wounds we are healed). Also, the faith generally comes from the one praying, more than the one suffering. Often Jesus and the apostles healed "non-believers."

Second question: How do Evangelicals reconcile that G-d is no respecter of persons - yet we are not all (in reality) created equal or the same by him? Is this in essence a piece missing from your puzzle?

The Traveler

God not being a respecter of persons simply means that God is not impressed by our wealth, our education, our gifts, nor our talents. I've never taken it to mean that all the same. None of us are the same--not even twins.

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Chaplain,

You are speaking on two different subjects, as I see it. And I am not stating the result of "sin" in all cases...simply bad choices.

It is indeed defined in Gospel Principles. It is not the fault of the child that he/she was born addicted to crack. That was the horrific choice of the parent. However, our basic beliefs include that we have indeed lived before in spirit form and the great Plan is that we come to this earth, a veil placed over our eyes, and it is for us to find our way to the truth. It is for us to choose right from wrong, etc.

A child born in such horrible circumstances...am I more valuable than another? Not even close. We are all the same. You are looking at it differently than I see it. Let's say a little girl is born, only one arm, addicted to cocaine. This little special girl fights with everything inside of her to live and she overcomes the cocaine and learns to live and live well with only one arm. She spends her life fighting her own battles and becomes a great athlete...say...in cross country. Thousands of children around the world watch her grow up, see what she can accomplish; they set out to make something of themselves. They realize their own greatness and potential...and they in turn help others who help others who help others. My goodness, what an effect this one little baby had on the world and those in need.

Then look at me...I have my own little crosses to bear, nothing I care to make public. But physically, I look just fine. What inspiration have I been? What great strides have I made? What motivates me to keep going when I see my life has only...ONLY (LOL)...3 wonderful children and a good man of a husband.

Which of us has had the better life? Nothing "bad" happened to the baby. She was just born that way. And she overcame. The only "bad" things that have happened to me have been from my own poor choices and at times, stupidity. We are all the same in the eyes of the Lord. But as I see it...that little baby grew up to do one heck of a lot more than I ever could.

So truly...do "bad" things really happen to "good" people...or is it just life and how the Lord has given it to us to overcome?

Just my thoughts....

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The doctrine that there is healing in the atonement is one held by my church, but not all--even amongst evangelicals. My own answer is yes, that in Isaiah 53:3-5 we see healing brought by Messiah that is spiritual (forgiveness of sin), emotional/psychological (peace), and physical (by his wounds we are healed). Also, the faith generally comes from the one praying, more than the one suffering. Often Jesus and the apostles healed "non-believers."

My reference to being healed or being forgiven comes from Luke 5:18-26

God not being a respecter of persons simply means that God is not impressed by our wealth, our education, our gifts, nor our talents. I've never taken it to mean that all the same. None of us are the same--not even twins.

Hmmmm. I have thought that someone that does not respect persons - under such considerations they treat all the same and that no one gets special treatment or lack of treatment. What they do for one they do for everyone. What they do not do for someone is not done for anyone. Interesting different point of view. Thank you

The Traveler

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I agree with you, Traveler. No respector of persons as I have always been taught it and how I believe it to be is that we are indeed all the same in the eyes of the Lord. We have to obey laws to receive blessings. We all have the same Gospel presented to us. No one above the other. Again, what we do with it is what defines us, not what has been given us. If the Lord treated everyone differently then He would not be a consistent God; therefore, He would cease to be God.

And now I'm getting into discussing doctrine and this is where I have to stop. I am not good at conveying gospel fact on paper...so with this, I will bow out and just read a bit. I'm finding this conversation fascinating! And truly enjoying it.

:)

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