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Would I find this in Gospel Principles, or where...because your answer sounds like its basic doctrine and well-defined.

It's in the context of children, but then broadens the application (Moroni 8:10)

Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

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Okay, my turn to comment. Let me add as a disclamer, I read all three pages, and while I tried to not take anything personally, my comments may be directed at some people in particular, specifically as I am someone diagnosed with mental illness. Thanks, PC, for inviting us to comment in the OP.

Letrell: If I understand correctly, you are saying that my poor choices are the reason I have a diagnosis of mental illness. That would make sense, except that some mental illnesses are caused by chemical imbalances, or are genetically predisposed to happening. What wrong choices did the person who's brain isn't producing enough serotonin make?

SS: You say that all of us have a mental illness of sorts. I beg to disagree. Merriam Webster defines a mental disorder/mental illness as:

: a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual—called also mental illness

Fasting and tithing, while they may be difficult, and not always what we want to do, generally do not impair us in our daily lives.

Praetorian: your remarks are quite disturbing. It's not so much that admitting to mental illness is dangerous, it's more the stigma that is attached. The minute anyone mentions that they or someone they know is possibly mentally ill, those stigmas march to the forefront. Part of it is, yes, the reaction of what people visualize schizophrenia by, someone out of control. The actual reality is that many more people suffer in silence because of how they will be viewed.

Everyone is or will be suffering from mental illness at some point in their life? Please, read the definition I posted above. Depression over your cat dying is one thing, you feel bad for a couple days, then you get over it. Mental illness refers to the people who struggle with depression/mania/anxiety/eating disorders, for weeks, months, even years, with the ups and downs that come with those issues. While most people will experience these symptoms briefly, they cannot understand what it is like to live with them day in and day out.

You are right in saying that mental illness is not necessarily curable. Most of the diagnosis that fit in the category of mental illness are only treatable. But again, check the definition of mental illness, it's something that seriously impairs the normal psychological functioning of a person. In these cases, why would you leave someone who could benefit from treatment without it?

I'm going to use your statement in a personal example. "Sometimes, its more important to accept someone or ourselves as is, than believing that they must operate under our assumptions." Now, provided I'm interpreting your statement correctly, it's better to accept me as I am, with my tendency towards SH/SI, my breaks in reality at times, my extreme mood swings(Bipolar w/ psychosis and borderline personality disorder) than to encourage me to get treatment, take my meds, and possibly live a much happier life, free of the ins and out of hospital stays, trips to the state hospital, and repeated efforts to do it on my own.

You are also right in saying that the resources for caring for a mentally ill person are scarce. That is true. When states/counties do budget cuts, often the psych portions on the state, county and local levels are cut, resulting in case workers having larger caseloads, hospitals having people in and out more often, and only a portion of those who need help being seen. That's why people such as you and I need to speak up, and make our leaders on those levels realize that those programs are needed.

And now to the OP, PC, the way I understand it is that is a trial I knew I would be given, and I accepted it. Now, it's thru my Heavenly Father's strength that I can do it, because on my own it would be a dismal failure. Had I known then what I know now, would I have taken it? I can't say. But I also know that my Father's grace comes to help me when I can't do it anymore on my own. I was truly blessed when I got my official diagnosis, to have both a branch president and Institute leader who were PA's, and a number of people in my branch in the medical profession. I received very few disapproving looks when I went back to that branch, and that's because tho the people there didn't know the extent of my struggle, they knew that I was doing what I could to handle it.

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SS: You say that all of us have a mental illness of sorts. I beg to disagree. Merriam Webster defines a mental disorder/mental illness as:

: a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual—called also mental illness

Is this a medical forum or a religious one?

I put "mental illness" in quotes for a reason. If one looks at what we suppose our "normal" psychological functioning was prior to coming to this world, I would say that it is markedly disorganized in most ways to seriously impair function compared to our state of mind in the pre-mortal world. I would even say our personality is greatly changed and especially emotions. The world sees the outer man as the man. So, if you want to stick with that view, fine, you are right. Joseph Smith taught that we were innocent before coming here and we know that we spent a lot of time in the presence of our Father to the point of maturity and not being able to develop further unless we took a Fall from that existence. I guess it depends on how far you think we fell. Some people tend to think that we barely fell. Those same people would think that we are barely saved then too. I tend to think we fell a great distance from our "normal psychological functioning". In this way, the test is created. The first estate test was one of personality and mind to make sure we are all on the same page - we all were and are. Now we face the test of carnal versus spiritual desires. There are few in this world that master carnal drives, certainly not most. So, if you are basing what is "normal" on the majority, well the majority of people go with what is carnal.

But, if you are talking about the medical designation of "mental illness" I completely agree with you. Then, you miss the point I was trying to make, which is that we all face dealing with a mortal brain that drives thought patterns that are contrary to the desires of the spirit. The body and spirit duality of the "mind" is at odds with itself often for that reason, in everybody. Even in people who are righteous, they still have to endure, because the effect of doing nothing is to fall back into carnality. So we have to constantly fight the natural drives that create the natural man's personality, emotions, and "mind".

Let me ask you; if you had a dream one night that you had an affair on your spouse, should you repent for having such a dream? Why or why not?

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Okay, I understand what you are saying, and I apologize that I misunderstood it. I was simply going with the assumption that we were discussing literal medical diagnosed mental illness, as that's what the topic was already.

Two, yes, one would need to repent. Scripture commands that we are to not covet, and not commit adultery. Proverbs also says "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" Once thoughts take root, they eventually lead to actions. So it's best to nip it in the bud. If you're having those types of thoughts, then you need to do some self-examining and find out why and where they're coming from.

Oh, and this may be a religious forum, but I'm in the medical field. Therefore, it comes out.

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Would I find this in Gospel Principles, or where...because your answer sounds like its basic doctrine and well-defined.

It's actually not very well-defined. As Elder Maxwell states:

"We must be exceedingly careful about imputing either wrong causes or wrong rewards to all such. They are in the Lord’s hands and he loves them perfectly. Some of those who have required much waiting upon in this life may be waited upon in the next world—but for the highest of reasons”

Note the use of the words "may be".

This quote is referred to in this Gospel Discussion of John 9 found here:

New Testament Teacher Resource Manual John 9–10

In LDS teaching (2 Nephi 2 as I referred to in my first post on this thread), there are those who act and that which are acted upon. It's easy to see this in material objects as the ones acted upon. But, it may also be that we are those who are acted upon. Hence, the child born with cerebral palsy as a result of a botched abortion... the doctor and the mother are those who acted and the baby is that which is acted upon. It is clear in this circumstance that the baby's condition is not a product of the baby's choice, hence, he is sinless. Yet, he still has to live with the challenge of a mental illness. It may possibly be that his mortal probation does not require him to exercise his agency or it may be that his mortal challenge is how he magnifies his life strapped with cerebral palsy. We do not really know (judgment is reserved for Jesus Christ alone). But his mortal existence may be the challenge that somebody else must act upon - e.g., the mother, his teachers, his friends, everybody he meets in life. This is also true in other cases such as a person raping another - The person doing the raping acted, the victim is the one acted upon. Although the victim was stripped of choice, the victim still has to live with the challenges of a rape victim - something that is part of his/her mortal probation.

We have an 18-year-old in our ward who has cerebral palsy (not quite sure how he got it but it has something to do with difficulty at birth - his umbilical cord may have been wrapped around him, but I can't be sure of that). He's been in our ward since he was a little kid. And I can bear testimony of the spiritual experiences that this boy has provided me in my life. He was 16 when he first offered the sacrament prayer and it was one of the most spiritual sacrament meetings we have ever had in our ward.

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Sorry, wyarwehere, I never got in on the mental illness issue. It is way beyond me. I was addressing the "age old question", why do bad things happen to good people. I am not a physician in any way, shape, or form; therefore, I do not discuss medical conditions of any type.

Sorry for the confusion.

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Okay, I understand what you are saying, and I apologize that I misunderstood it. I was simply going with the assumption that we were discussing literal medical diagnosed mental illness, as that's what the topic was already.

Two, yes, one would need to repent. Scripture commands that we are to not covet, and not commit adultery. Proverbs also says "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" Once thoughts take root, they eventually lead to actions. So it's best to nip it in the bud. If you're having those types of thoughts, then you need to do some self-examining and find out why and where they're coming from.

Oh, and this may be a religious forum, but I'm in the medical field. Therefore, it comes out.

Thanks.

So, you think a dream is a representation of what is in the heart? If you don't think the dream is something that comes from "thinketh in his heart" then where does it come from?

Lets say the person repents from the dream of infidelity and then has a similar dream that same night. Has the person sinned?

Then it sounds like you would also say that if one happens to think about eating food while fasting then they have broken their fast?

Let me remind you of the story of the man born blind; " 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

Jesus then explained; " 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

In other words, we come to this world blinded so that we might have faith in Christ. Those that say they have no need for a Savior, that they "see" just fine (i.e - their brain works fine on it's own), remain in their sin.

Elder Wood said; "Paul then quotes the Lord, who tells him, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). All men and women are bound by mortally imposed weaknesses and limitations in strength, knowledge, and power. Contrasting these limitations with the infinite wisdom and power of God brings humility. “Weaknesses are a constant reminder of our dependence upon the Lord. It is when we take those weaknesses to Him, in humility, that we can become effectively joined with Him in a great work. It is when we have done as much as we can do that His grace … can move us beyond our natural abilities” (Carolyn J. Rasmus, “Faith Strengthened in Weakness,” Church News, 26 Feb. 1994, 10). It is in this sense that God’s strength can then be made perfect in our lives. “The Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things” (Jacob 4:7)."

All men and women are mortally bound by the "limitation" in knowledge and wisdom. In other words, we are mentally limited. This is done so we approach the Lord in humility and learn to have faith in Him. 2 Corinthians 12 " 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

And Jacob 4: " 7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things."

There is nothing wrong in saying that we are mentally weak, in fact, it is an empowering thing to admit such weakness as it allows us to be made strong in Christ.

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wyarwehere, I find your post most interesting and insightful. Thank you for posting. I would like to comment on your post and perhaps receive responses from you and others in order that I may learn, have better understanding and treat others in a more enlightened and beneficial manner.

....

Letrell: If I understand correctly, you are saying that my poor choices are the reason I have a diagnosis of mental illness. That would make sense, except that some mental illnesses are caused by chemical imbalances, or are genetically predisposed to happening. What wrong choices did the person who's brain isn't producing enough serotonin make?

It appears to me that as mortals we are prone to make decisions that are for a variety of reasons called poor choices. I sometimes wonder why we call something a choice when the outcome or consequences are not understood at all. If we all had crystal balls that allowed us to see the full extent of each decision few (none?) would chart the course they are currently navigating. How often do we hear the phrase, "If I only knew then what I know now." We tend to label such decisions as "poor choices" when in reality the were actually uninformed and ignorant decisions.

For my self in dealing with a number of people I know with "mental illnesses" I have made a lot of decisions that I now wish that I could do over. In truth there are some issues that I am so poorly equipped to address that it is best that under many circumstances to excuse my self and regain my composure before saying or doing anything. I have found that I must be in complete control of my self before I can endure what is necessary to be of any actual benefit in some situations.

Praetorian: your remarks are quite disturbing. It's not so much that admitting to mental illness is dangerous, it's more the stigma that is attached. The minute anyone mentions that they or someone they know is possibly mentally ill, those stigmas march to the forefront. Part of it is, yes, the reaction of what people visualize schizophrenia by, someone out of control. The actual reality is that many more people suffer in silence because of how they will be viewed.

In general, I believe suffering is a very lonely path. It certainly was for Christ. I believe the reason most of us suffer in silence is because there is some degree of embarrassment or we do not want others (especially those we love) to be negatively affected or sucked into our suffering vortex. The idea of suffering in silence because of the perceived view of others is in my mind (at least in part) one of those poor decisions I mentioned above. The reality is that most people are loving and kind but because of poor decisions in their past will often react , especially when caught off guard or unprepared, in a self protecting manner. Almost never will a person make a poor decision for the soul reason to cause another harm.

Everyone is or will be suffering from mental illness at some point in their life? Please, read the definition I posted above. Depression over your cat dying is one thing, you feel bad for a couple days, then you get over it. Mental illness refers to the people who struggle with depression/mania/anxiety/eating disorders, for weeks, months, even years, with the ups and downs that come with those issues. While most people will experience these symptoms briefly, they cannot understand what it is like to live with them day in and day out.

I honestly do not see any reason to begin with the assumption that no one has your problem so no one can understand you. I do not intend to be offensive or draw attention to you personally - I say this in general to anyone the believes them selves to be misunderstood. In essence I believe that if someone wants to be viewed as different then they should not be at all upset when someone views them as different. There is enough similarities in all humans that anyone fits in as well as anyone else - deciding not to fit in (for our self or thinking so of another) is, I think, another one of those poor decisions I mentioned previously.

You are right in saying that mental illness is not necessarily curable. Most of the diagnosis that fit in the category of mental illness are only treatable. But again, check the definition of mental illness, it's something that seriously impairs the normal psychological functioning of a person. In these cases, why would you leave someone who could benefit from treatment without it?

I'm going to use your statement in a personal example. "Sometimes, its more important to accept someone or ourselves as is, than believing that they must operate under our assumptions." Now, provided I'm interpreting your statement correctly, it's better to accept me as I am, with my tendency towards SH/SI, my breaks in reality at times, my extreme mood swings(Bipolar w/ psychosis and borderline personality disorder) than to encourage me to get treatment, take my meds, and possibly live a much happier life, free of the ins and out of hospital stays, trips to the state hospital, and repeated efforts to do it on my own.

I really like the idea I think you are portraying here. It is so brilliant that I believe you deserve a standing ovation. :clap::clap:

You are also right in saying that the resources for caring for a mentally ill person are scarce. That is true. When states/counties do budget cuts, often the psych portions on the state, county and local levels are cut, resulting in case workers having larger caseloads, hospitals having people in and out more often, and only a portion of those who need help being seen. That's why people such as you and I need to speak up, and make our leaders on those levels realize that those programs are needed.

There was a movie - I am sorry I do not remember the title - but the plot was basically a documentary of a real person, though very talented musically, suffered from mental illness. A reporter discovered the talent of this homeless person and made a honest effort to help. The sad truth was that this individual just was not able to function in society and in essence could not be made to fit into any rational social environment. The only options were to force the person into some kind of compliance and treatment or allow them the freedom to live and die as a homeless person. Sometimes I think the fix we may envision is worse than what we think is broken.

And now to the OP, PC, the way I understand it is that is a trial I knew I would be given, and I accepted it. Now, it's thru my Heavenly Father's strength that I can do it, because on my own it would be a dismal failure. Had I known then what I know now, would I have taken it? I can't say. But I also know that my Father's grace comes to help me when I can't do it anymore on my own. I was truly blessed when I got my official diagnosis, to have both a branch president and Institute leader who were PA's, and a number of people in my branch in the medical profession. I received very few disapproving looks when I went back to that branch, and that's because tho the people there didn't know the extent of my struggle, they knew that I was doing what I could to handle it.

I think this is another thought that deserves an applause. :clap: What may be missing is the thought that perhaps everyone at church comes with the same needs -- both from our Father in heaven and from the saints of his church.

The Traveler

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Today I was listening to a contemporary Christian song that offered interesting insight. The basic premise was that current trials may be blessings in disguise. Several posters here have hinted at this--that the trials and tribulations of mental illness (or other difficulties) may indicate a particular strength or resilience, rather than being some kind of punishment or sign of moral failure/sin (in this life, or some past existence).

Personally, I've commented that Chinese pastors are sent by the government to jail, as punishment for their preaching. My government sponsors me to go in and do so. It may be that the final judgment will show them to be the great ones--that God trusted them with a far greater service.

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I was putting myself in the place of our prison psychologists. They see people with personality disorders, some who may be suicidal, some who are claiming mental illnesses, and some who are just obnoxious individuals. Through all that, they sometimes find people that are truly stuck in their heads. The thinking is off. They may be depressed, bipolar, or schizophrenic. I'm recalling my internship days at a prison mental hospital unit.

All this got me to thinking, how does this fit with our view of the world? As an evangelical, I basically think that the Fall, with the introduction of the rebellion's curse (the corruption of nature, with resulting sickness, disasters, and death), and think Adam and Eve's sin was truly wretched--and I have inherited that predisposition--and must battle it daily.

I'm not sure how the LDS view--that this life is a valiant test of our agency--interprets mental illness and some of the horrific unfairness in the world.

I can't offer an "official" LDS statement here, and others have done a good job fleshing out this topic. I have received valuable insight into this topic from the Lord and through the scriptures, which I will share briefly (I only have 10 minutes, so it won't be as thoroughly documented as I'd like).

I was diagnosed with clinical depression at age 12, and was on antidepressants from ages 13-24. Life was a recurrent hellhole while on them; I could not keep a job or make any significant progress without backsliding. My true healing out of being clinically depressed came from the Lord- He gave me strength to endure until I was ready to go off of them. When that time came, He told me- in a way that I could absolutely not mistake- that I was to go off of them and never take them again. I did so (went off cold turkey, which I do not suggest to anyone!), and 4 months of terrible nausea and depression followed. After the withdrawals ended, the real healing began, which has come entirely from following the precepts of the Gospel, and from the Spirit of the Lord. The following is what I have learned since that time.

What the world and professionals call "mental illness" is really spiritual "illness" or sickness. They can result from a disorganization of the spirit-- which is often a result from some type of abuse or neglect suffered as a child-- and can also be caused by having an "evil spirit". Everyone is "sick" to some degree, and all have the need for Christ as the Master Physician. However, some people's spiritual "sickness" is so severe that it inhibits what we describe as a "normal" level of functioning in our society. For some people, they are so spiritually sick that their physical body is affected.

Regarding "evil spirits": like a physical agent that brings disease to the physical body- such as a virus or cancer- a spiritual agent brings disease to the spiritual body. The result of that spiritual sickness can manifest itself as depression, dementia, schizophrenia, or a multitude of other ways. The difference- and what makes the study of spiritual sickness so tricky- is that those spiritual "agents" (we'll call them "germs") have intelligence, motives, and desires. They can suggest and affect action, but as far as we know cannot force actions that are against the will of the person affected until after the person has fully submitted to the evil spirit, giving them full control over their physical body.

All the different forms of spiritual sickness can be healed through the power of God, using the power and authority of the Priesthood as the directing agent. The reason this type of healing is so rare today is because so few men have the required amount of power in their Priesthood- and the requisite faith to make it work. Those who do have the requisite faith have the power to heal anything wrong or disorganized in the spirit, and also to cast out any spiritual "germs" (evil spirits) that are present.

It is possible to be healed through living the correct principles of the Gospel. To be fully and completely healed, however, usually takes a long time and requires a great amount of faith on the part of the person who would like to be healed.

It's an age old question--why do bad things happen to 'good' people

This question brings to mind Christ's admonition about calling no man 'good'. This question sets someone up for failure because it assumes that the person who has bad things happening to them are 'good'. They are not 'good'; all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Moreso than others, the repentant person seeking to draw close to Christ knows how much they are not 'good'. That doesn't mean that everyone always "deserves" the bad things that happen to them (think of Job), but the question is based in a false premise.

Keeping the above in mind, it also brings to mind Christ's comments about the man born blind: he was born that way so that the glory of God might be made manifest in him, not because he or his parents sinned. He was born blind so that Christ could heal him, and thereby prove Christ's power and authority. I would also assume this is true for some who are born with spiritual sicknesses. When they are healed through the power of God, as I have been, there is no room for doubt: they know who did the healing, and who has the power, and to who the glory belongs.

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I was not suggesting that someone should not seek treatment, but rather accept people for who they are. A Beautiful Mind delivers that message quite well. I believe that I did do a decent job of illustrating the stigma of revealing issues.

I do not believe that mental illness is a test of character, granted via some grand plan, rather its a product of environmental, circumstantial or self inflicted. Nature versus nurture. Society versus self, Ether 12:27, etc. There are countless variables.

I have visited enough psych wards visiting family and friends to come to the above conclusion. Considering depression is a common theme within my family, with other variables thrown into the mix, I believe I have a decent understanding of the topic.

There is no smoking gun reason or treatment, but I will say that compassion and empathy far outweigh any quest for a finite answer.

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I was not suggesting that someone should not seek treatment, but rather accept people for who they are. A Beautiful Mind delivers that message quite well. I believe that I did do a decent job of illustrating the stigma of revealing issues.

I do not believe that mental illness is a test of character, granted via some grand plan, rather its a product of environmental, circumstantial or self inflicted. Nature versus nurture. Society versus self, Ether 12:27, etc. There are countless variables.

I have visited enough psych wards visiting family and friends to come to the above conclusion. Considering depression is a common theme within my family, with other variables thrown into the mix, I believe I have a decent understanding of the topic.

There is no smoking gun reason or treatment, but I will say that compassion and empathy far outweigh any quest for a finite answer.

I agree! This is why we sing songs such as 'I am a child of God', to remind us all who we really are. We should accept everyone for who they really are, a child of God who has passed the first estate test, meaning one who is in line to receive glory well beyond anything found here. Understanding who we really are allows a person to realize that even a person with the best brain in the world is fallen from their previous state. Some would like to believe that we haven't fallen very far. I don't take that view. I realize that a veil has covered thousands and thousands of years (if not more) of direct learning in the presence of our Heavenly Father. To me, that is who I am and who all of us are. Not this fallen set of stewardship that we call self. This is what allows Christ to say 'forgive them for they know not what they do' and to approach the sinner with love. When I die I hope to at least regain my former status and hope to be propelled further than that. At a minimum, our former status, I believe, is an intelligence that far supersedes all the beautiful minds of this world put together. We would sell ourselves way short to fall in love with our current self, it is best to keep our eye on the glory of God which is closer to our real self than this existence.

Even the most evil person in this world did better than those who didn't pass the first estate test. I think we down play the importance of that first estate test too much, suggesting it was simply a choice between plan A or B. It was more than that, it was something that had to be earned based in the level of our faith. There were some that were more valiant than others in their expression of faith but all who passed the first estate expressed faith.

For us of faith, we should see people as they really are, as the Lord sees them and not as the world. So, I agree, we should accept people for who they really are which is not the sum total of their brain's characteristics. That is simply a temporary stewardship. When I meet Moses in the next life I doubt he will be poor of speech and I also doubt that I will see Paul with a 'thorn in the flesh' because that is not who they are even if it was part of their character here.

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....

For us of faith, we should see people as they really are, as the Lord sees them and not as the world. So, I agree, we should accept people for who they really are which is not the sum total of their brain's characteristics. That is simply a temporary stewardship. When I meet Moses in the next life I doubt he will be poor of speech and I also doubt that I will see Paul with a 'thorn in the flesh' because that is not who they are even if it was part of their character here.

As you asked in another thread (slightly changed for this thread) - how should we see people like Hitler and Cain?

The Traveler

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Since we are spirit beings with free agency formed in the pre-existence and placed on earth without memory and with a physical body which is sometimes defective, how can we on earth judge anything about fundamental character by just our observation of the person?

Is someone with old age dementia any less of a person than he was in the vigor and intelligence of his youth?

Perhaps, the physical body is subject to mechanical error because of the randomness inherent in this physical world. The spirit then has to work through the physical limitations of the defective body.

If we were all physically perfect, that would be a proof of the existence of God and violate the premise of Free Agency

Edited by Upcountry
Need to add the word "physically"
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Since we are spirit beings with free agency formed in the pre-existence and placed on earth without memory and with a physical body which is sometimes defective, how can we on earth judge anything about fundamental character by just our observation of the person?

Is someone with old age dementia any less of a person than he was in the vigor and intelligence of his youth?

Perhaps, the physical body is subject to mechanical error because of the randomness inherent in this physical world. The spirit then has to work through the physical limitations of the defective body.

If we were all physically perfect, that would be a proof of the existence of God and violate the premise of Free Agency

If we cannot judge how can there be free will or agency choice?

I believe the term in our LDS scripture scripture is agency. Agency implies that we work for or represent another. I believe the only agency we have is to align ourselves with either good (G-d) or evil (Satan). As I understand we are not free agents representing ourselves - because we do not even really know who we are. As I understand the default condition of our agency in mortality is to be aligned with Satan. That is problematic because Satan intends to eliminate any choice we wish to exercise concerning agency thus by default we would become agents of him.

The Traveler

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If we cannot judge how can there be free will or agency choice?

I believe the term in our LDS scripture scripture is agency. Agency implies that we work for or represent another. I believe the only agency we have is to align ourselves with either good (G-d) or evil (Satan). As I understand we are not free agents representing ourselves - because we do not even really know who we are. As I understand the default condition of our agency in mortality is to be aligned with Satan. That is problematic because Satan intends to eliminate any choice we wish to exercise concerning agency thus by default we would become agents of him.

The Traveler

I think when you say "we" you should specify what part of "we", our body or our spirit. The natural man is an enemy to God, which is the part of us that is natural or carnal. Our spirit is innocent as Joseph Smith explains. And by passing the first estate test we know it is not aligned with Satan. This is where the opposition exists to create the choice, between body and spirit. We can attempt to put our carnal tendencies under submission but they come back if we don't endure and keep the battle going throughout our life. Of course, the gospel is the method by which we more easily control the carnal aspect of our being.

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I think when you say "we" you should specify what part of "we", our body or our spirit. The natural man is an enemy to God, which is the part of us that is natural or carnal. Our spirit is innocent as Joseph Smith explains. And by passing the first estate test we know it is not aligned with Satan. This is where the opposition exists to create the choice, between body and spirit. We can attempt to put our carnal tendencies under submission but they come back if we don't endure and keep the battle going throughout our life. Of course, the gospel is the method by which we more easily control the carnal aspect of our being.

I am confused by your remarks - the physical tabernacle without the spirit is a dead lifeless corpse - hardly an enemy to anything or even capable of lust or anything else that is sin???

The Traveler

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I was putting myself in the place of our prison psychologists. They see people with personality disorders, some who may be suicidal, some who are claiming mental illnesses, and some who are just obnoxious individuals. Through all that, they sometimes find people that are truly stuck in their heads. The thinking is off. They may be depressed, bipolar, or schizophrenic. I'm recalling my internship days at a prison mental hospital unit.

I recently attended a seminar where a prison psychologists was speaking and during that seminar he labelled each of those prisoners as "Heroes". This caught my attention. Surely he wasn't referring to the murders, abuses, sexual assault and so on people behind bars. I listened carefully and there he said the word again," Heroes"...

I pondered upon this as the seminar went on and listened to him make this statement several more times. By the end of the seminar I began to understand why our thinking was so far apart. Through working with them he had understood these people a lot better than I could possibly understand. Not only that but he had seen into their lives in a way i had know idea or comprehension about.

One such prisoner who he called a "Hero" and had committed murder, had constantly been belted by his drunken father growing up and had watched his mother receive the same abuse. He was also a victim of sexual abuse by his uncle through his younger years. Now he is in jail cause one day after years of suppression and abuse he eventually snapped and took someones life.

If this psychologists was able to see so much more into this mans life than i was, how much more must God see into our own unique and often unpredictable lives?

I believe that God sees all of our circumstances and understands perfectly our own individual situation.

He is the perfect judge because he descended below all things so he perfectly knows how to succor his people.

Gods grace is sufficient for all.

For me to think im better than the person walking on death row is naive. I may have not done what they did, but equally I may have not had to walk the path they have walked.

Personally as a devout member of the church im sometimes a little disappointed at the after all you can do attitude we often adopt. have you done your home teaching? have you done your family history? have you done your calling? have you been to the temple this week? and the list goes on and on.

No wonder some christians think mormons are trying to work their way to heaven. Works are important, don't get me wrong but i don't think Gods standing up their with a time card saying "well done you clocked in 20hrs this week, lets see if you can up the game plan a little more next week".

We can become so focused on doing, that we tend to forget why we are doing, or even more importantly without Gods grace it really doesn't matter what we do.

I think if we balanced that off a little with more instruction on the Grace of God his Atonement and the role it has in our lives we would have less youth leaving the church the moment they slip up, less people judging others, less people feeling guilty all the time which is the no 1 cause of depression and less members seeing themselves as less.....

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I am confused by your remarks - the physical tabernacle without the spirit is a dead lifeless corpse - hardly an enemy to anything or even capable of lust or anything else that is sin???

The Traveler

Where do you get that? A body without a spirit is without life, meaning there is no potential for eternal life or what we call life which is to have both a spirit and a body. There are things that act and things acted upon but that does not mean that things that are acted upon have no action of their own. Does an oxygen molecule moving around in the air require an intelligent spirit telling it to make movements or is that just the nature of oxygen?

Teachings of David O. McKay:

"Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.] " "The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem?3

Indulgence in appetites and desires of the physical man satisfy but for the moment and may lead to unhappiness, misery, and possible degradation; spiritual achievements give “joy not to be repented of.”"

David O. McKay states clearly that the physical man which is the contrasting nature to the spiritual nature and is within the natural body as opposed to the spiritual body has "appetites and desires". The appetites and desires of the physical body are separate from the spiritual. Man is a dual being. What is so confusing about that?

Paul outlines pretty clearly how bad that enemy is, don't deny it! "In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul specifically enumerates the “works of the flesh,” as he calls them, and the “fruits of the Spirit.” Note this classification: The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

“… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

“Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

“Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

“Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

“And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

“If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Gal. 5:19–25.)"

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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I believe the term in our LDS scripture scripture is agency. Agency implies that we work for or represent another. I believe the only agency we have is to align ourselves with either good (G-d) or evil (Satan). As I understand we are not free agents representing ourselves - because we do not even really know who we are. As I understand the default condition of our agency in mortality is to be aligned with Satan. That is problematic because Satan intends to eliminate any choice we wish to exercise concerning agency thus by default we would become agents of him.

The Traveler

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My understanding of agency is different. The definition of agency is an important point.

Suppose you are standing in front of two doors. You may choose to enter either. If you are a programed rob, you would not have agency.

But you are given the right to make your own choice. The fact that you may chose either door is agency. You choose the left one. As you approach it to enter, you begin to feel pain (or lack of pleasure. When you approach the other door, you feel less pain (or more pleasure).

But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So you brave the pain and enter the left door. You have exercised your agency freely. You have chosen for yourself and must bear the consequences. If the pain were unbearable so that you could not ever enter the left door or if there were a physical barrier, you would not have had "free" agency. You would not be responsible for your forced choice. I realize God uses only "agency" in Moses 4:4. But I interpret this agency as as the power to chose

The first free agency choice was made in the pre-existence. !/3 chose to follow Lucifer. He must have had a persuasive argument because he got a lot of his fellow spirits to freely choose his side. As I understand it, that was the first time we exercised our free agency on anything that mattered.

Adam made the first free agency choice on this earth. As I understand it, he had to choose between the lesser of two laws to break. 1) cleave to his wife or 2) don't eat the fruit. There was no way out for him. He had to disobey one or the other.

As Children of God, it is given to them (us) to become "agents unto themselves" with the power to "know good from evil" (Moses 6:56). We are our own agents and we can choose freely and are responsible. True, we are learning. This world is a time for testing, teaching and training to use our potential immense power for good.

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