Can you touch a spirit being?

[Upcountry]

HI,

I am an LDS scientist.

Can you touch a spirit being?

I joined looking for opinions on this topic

I think not for two reasons:

First in John 3 talking to Nicodemus: "the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the spirit.

Second, Jesus in talking to Thomas after the resurrection, invited Thomas to thrust his hands into His wounds as if to confirm that He was not just a spirit but a resurrected being.

We are telepathic beings - what else is a silent prayer? Perhaps some of the sensation of touching spirits is more in the mind than actual touch. But I doubt a spirit could break your finger for example.

Comments?

TOG

I am new here. email is [moderator removed]

Edited May 20, 2013 by skippy740
Please do not post personal information.

[Anddenex]

HI,

I am an LDS scientist.

Can you touch a spirit being?

Yes. When I think of Joseph Smith's experience I wonder by what power and means was Joseph Smith's tongue bound, and why did he fear death?

In Luke, The Lord mentions his disciples to touch him so that they may know he has a body of flesh and bones, unlike a spirit; however, the scripture does not specify that they would be unable to touch him.

My personal thoughts, I don't see any reason why a spirit would not be able to touch us. Our spirits are still composed of some for of matter, elements which are eternal.

[M_T_E]

HI,

I am an LDS scientist.

Can you touch a spirit being?

I joined looking for opinions on this topic

I think not for two reasons:

First in John 3 talking to Nicodemus: "the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the spirit.

Second, Jesus in talking to Thomas after the resurrection, invited Thomas to thrust his hands into His wounds as if to confirm that He was not just a spirit but a resurrected being.

We are telepathic beings - what else is a silent prayer? Perhaps some of the sensation of touching spirits is more in the mind than actual touch. But I doubt a spirit could break your finger for example.

Comments?

TOG

I am new here. email is [moderator removed]

May I ask what is an LDS Scientist? Like Scientology with LDS beliefs?

Edited May 20, 2013 by skippy740

[skippy740]

Doctrine and Covenants 129 

[rayhale]

This is one confusing aspect of our faith, we believe in a spirit world, where we, and they, can interact with each other, yet we don’t really believe in things like haunted houses, possession (well, this is both yes, and no), and some other supernatural things that some other faiths do. Is this a case of having your cake, and eat it too?

[Magen_Avot]

HI,

I am an LDS scientist.

Can you touch a spirit being?

I joined looking for opinions on this topic]

I'm confused. You present yourself as a scientist, but I don't read that in your comments.

Are you a scientist with a doctorate in a scientific field? A self proclaimed scientist? Basement DIY scientist? Occult scientist or supernatural scientist? The statement of "LDS Scientist" can mean what was already asked, "scientology" like scientist (can that even exhist?) or some kind of pseudo-scientist of LDS people, theories, opinions or doctrine or what have you?

Can you share a bit more background? What's your interest in this topic?

That said, skippy gave a great doctrinal response.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Magen_Avot

[justinc]

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/53620-spirit-matter.html This might be worth reading regarding the nature of spirit matter etc.

[Magen_Avot]

It's not for the feint of heart though.

[lagarthaaz]

I was wondering about something similar the other day when a friend told me that her relative who passed away would be reunited in the arms of loved ones in the spirit world. Of course I would never say this to anyone who is grieving but I did wonder about the following:

If spirits can't touch because they have no resurrected body (yet) in the spirit world, then is such a reunion possible? Or would it be more of a 'feeling' of love in such a reunion without any actual touch?

Or can the righteous or innocent (ie. children) have resurrected bodies like the 'angels' spoken of in D&C 129, and therefore enjoy a tactile experience of reuniting with loved ones in the spirit world ?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes. When I think of Joseph Smith's experience I wonder by what power and means was Joseph Smith's tongue bound, and why did he fear death?

Because Satan has been given temporary power over this fallen world but that will be removed during the millennium and once again after the final battle. In the meantime, Satan has some power over physical things.

[Upcountry]

Thanks, Sec 129 D&C answers it all. Perfectly consistent.

I hold a Ph.D. in physics. Specialty electro-optics. General applied physics. Several patents.

Trained in logical thinking. I am trying to develop a theory unifying physics and religion and answering questions like why does God need us, why do we worship, what are Satan's motives and goals.

I have been an LDS member for 40 years and attend a ward regularly. I have trouble with blind faith and want to know why The Father and Son do what they do. The logic of Baptism for the Dead was what converted me from an anti-Christian zealot.

Later I found the separate Father and Son argument compelling. Since other religions believe God is a spirit only, perhaps they are worshiping Satan adding truth to Smith's saying The Great and Abominable Church - a harlot in that it gives comfort to the worshiper but does not advance the Plan of Salvation.

I don't know how to answer messages personally. I keep getting refused

I have a blog with the theory explained. Here is the abstract.

Abstract

Using selected scriptural verses and logical inferences relating to the God of Abraham, I propose a method of interpreting scriptures and world events. From these, I hypothesize that Humans are the children of God and His heirs in every sense. He has given them free agency, a physical body and a bountiful earth to test each of them in their society without memory of a pre-existence. Within the free agency constraint, Jesus and an activist Satan are in an ongoing battle for their allegiance. No matter the goodness of the soul, the atonement by Jesus and baptism by and of those born of woman are voluntary rites required for entry into heaven. This interpretation is consistent with an assumption that God is loving and merciful but not omnipotent. The additional assumption that God is just requires Baptism for the Dead. These concepts are similar to the Teachings of Arius and the Mormon Church. I claim no spiritual authority or special insights. My purpose here is to provide a logical approach for People of the Book to interpret their scriptures - not to change any belief systems.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Trained in logical thinking. I am trying to develop a theory unifying physics and religion and answering questions like why does God need us, why do we worship, what are Satan's motives and goals.

The answer to that question goes along with why God's glory is increased when He brings about the immortality and Eternal Life of man.

If you have children the answer is inherently obvious. When my child gets an A in school I experience a certain amount of joy. Why do I feel joy about that? I am not the one who got an A. And why is it that I don't feel the same amount of joy when any other kid gets an A?

It is because of a very specific trait that I think we share with God, empathy. This is why the most important commandments are to love God and to love thy neighbor as thyself. All people that make it into the Celestial Kingdom share glory. When glory is not shared, to the extreme, is what Satan stands for. He wanted all the glory to himself and by himself without giving credit where credit is due. Worship is a form of developing empathy and the ability to receive glory from the actions of someone else. As that is one of the key traits of those found in the Celestial Kingdom, our gospel is about developing that trait. This is why we serve with an eye single to the glory of God, not to our own glory. People who cannot find joy in the success of others as much as they find it with their own personal success will not find themselves in such a system.

Logically speaking, even though you have some patents, the majority of what you know was developed by someone else and you took it on as your own. If you had to "start from scratch" so-to-speak in learning everything towards the field of electro-optics it would take you many lifetimes to get there. You would first have to develop language, how to mine minerals, smelt metals, discover theories of mathematics and physics etc. So, giving credit where credit is due, even your contributions to the field are on the back of many other people over many generations. Apply that concept to God's system. All those who have perfect empathy can receive all that God has and God receives all that we contribute. How is it that Christ could pay for all our sins if not by His ability to feel and understand the implications of such sin? God received all that His Father had and took it on as His own. Christ takes on all that His Father has and desires that we be one with Him in that same process. We partake of His flesh and blood with that idea in mind.

The system of eternal joy is one that is based in the shared success of all those who are sealed together in a covenant bond where all experience is mutually shared. 1 Corinthians 12; "25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."

Satan was and is incapable of rejoicing when another is honored and therefore is taken off the track towards glory. Celestial life requires sacrificing self centered achievement for service with an eye single to the glory of God and in that way the person will have more abundantly than what could be produced on her own.

[Upcountry]

I appreciate your detailed reply and the time you have taken.

When my child gets an "A", I am happy because he is a part of ME. He is my glory, my legacy, the difference I have made in the universe. Why don't I feel the same joy for another kid's "A"? He is also a child of God. But he is not my child. If it were truly empathy, I would feel the same for all children.

You say:

It is because of a very specific trait that I think we share with God, empathy. This is why the most important commandments are to love God and to love thy neighbor as thyself. All people that make it into the Celestial Kingdom share glory. When glory is not shared, to the extreme, is what Satan stands for. He wanted all the glory to himself and by himself without giving credit where credit is due. Worship is a form of developing empathy and the ability to receive glory from the actions of someone else. As that is one of the key traits of those found in the Celestial Kingdom, our gospel is about developing that trait. This is why we serve with an eye single to the glory of God, not to our own glory. People who cannot find joy in the success of others as much as they find it with their own personal success will not find themselves in such a system."

We worship because it is an inherent trait in our design - to be part of something bigger than ourselves. We would not be human if we did not love our own father more than our neighbor. Same goes with God. We worship to take satisfaction in this oneness. All societies do this. But only LDS worship to set up the infrastructure for God's Priesthood to function and perform as God needs it to. God has designed us to do this. He needs us to perform these functions. Else all the world would be wasted.

Of course, I stand on the shoulders of those who came before. That is what separates humans from the other creatures. We are qualitatively different. Our potential if far greater than theirs. That is what gives us the potential to be like God and take part in Eternal Progression. That is the glory of intelligence. God's glory can be our glory too if we accept the opportunity.

I think that the Atonement was a necessary rite to correct an injustice. The rite had to happen by the Free Agency of Jesus just like baptism has to happen by the Free agency of the individual. It is a mysterious part of the joining of the spirit and the physical to their fullest potential.

My joy comes when ALL Children of God succeed, not just my small group. My highest gripe about LDS is that they view themselves as so important. We are not the Gatekeepers. We are not special EXCEPT that we are the providers of a Priesthood service the world needs. That is all. Enjoyment that we have had a small part of the Glory of God is all the reward we deserve. Let us not get so puffed up. Everyone has a family. Everyone will be sealed up not just our small family and society.

I think the plan of Satan was more subtle and attractive than you say. He wanted souls to give them their proxy to avoid the pain of this world. He would be their light and truth. They would worship him like bees worship their queen. But I digress.

Thank you again.

Upcountry

[Magen_Avot]

Thanks, Sec 129 D&C answers it all. Perfectly consistent.

I hold a Ph.D. in physics. Specialty electro-optics. General applied physics. Several patents.

Trained in logical thinking. I am trying to develop a theory unifying physics and religion and answering questions like why does God need us, why do we worship, what are Satan's motives and goals...

Well,.. ok then... thanks

As to the question, "can we touch a spirit"...

I have yet to be accused of being a scientist, but...

I don't believe so.

I would pose this question instead, "Can a spirit touch us?.

IMO... Yes, in a manner of speaking. Why I say this is due to personal experience.

The binding of JS's tongue and the imobility is consistant in my thinking and I have never had an issue with it.

Being received at death in the arms or bosom of loved ones? Not sure but I see this as a figure of speech.

[ElectofGod]

I was going to post a reply but semin* said it very well.

My joy comes when ALL Children of God succeed

Exactly... His joy IS his work and glory.... The immortality and ETERNAL LIFE of man...

His children ARE HIS GLORY..... Would he have any poewr if his children did nothing? No.. One gets power through Honor (and all the other virtues)... If nobody honors him there is no work to do than there is no glory. As it says in abraham/moses... Satan wanted god's Honor, his power.

Seminar* wrote:

Christ takes on all that His Father has and desires that we be one with Him in that same process.

All that my father has was given to Christ, Christ takes Fathers throne and the Father is than exalted... Yet at this new point Christ still does NOT have ALL that the Father has... He is still Exalted higher than Christ. Because Christ will ALWAYS be his "Son".

And that only pertains to the "worlds" under the Godhead: God, Christ, Holy Ghost.... Ahman, Son Ahman, Sons Ahman.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Martain]

Q: Would Spirit Paradise be a paradise if you could not physically and tactically interact with those who live there?

Q: How could you obey the command to not be idle if you could not work or interact with anything?

Q: Do you expect a world without books of scripture? Would we have to entirely memorize or verbally relate such to perform missionary work?

Q: Was not this world patterned after our previous home? If so, then are we to say that we had no physical interaction with spiritual matter (our Father) or spirit matter (our prior world and each other) as a spirit being in the pre-existence?

While D&C 127 does help us understand how our physical senses would experience spiritual and spirit matter it does nothing to explain how spirit matter interacts with itself or with spiritual matter. Such is one of the mysteries of God and can really only be properly understood by revelation of which we have not as a church in its plainness received.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Martain

[Seminarysnoozer]

Everyone has a family. Everyone will be sealed up not just our small family and society.

What do you mean by this?

Who is Hitler sealed to? Who is Cain sealed to?

[Upcountry]

I do not know. But a search of Google yielded:

According to Radkey, records obtained in 1998 show that Adolf Hitler was "baptized" and "endowed" on December 10, 1993, and "sealed" to his parents on March 12, 1994. Both place in the London Temple, England.

Source: Utah Lighthouse Ministry

I cannot provide the URL according to the rules.

All I am saying is that we do not judge those who we baptize nor do we expect them to become LDS.

Everyone will be able to accept or reject this rite. Of course, God would have a veto power. He said I will forgive whom I will forgive ... D&C 64 34-35.

[ElectofGod]

God would have a veto power.

I have heard that there are people, who "The person choose to side with lucifer in the pre-existence but due to the atonement they still were not past forgiveness to receive his grace and mercy so they were still able to get a body"...

Not sure how true but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Vort]

According to Radkey, records obtained in 1998 show that Adolf Hitler was "baptized" and "endowed" on December 10, 1993, and "sealed" to his parents on March 12, 1994. Both place in the London Temple, England.

Source: Utah Lighthouse Ministry

Helen Radkey is openly apostate. The Utah Lighthouse Ministry is a Satanic organization dedicated to the overthrow of God's kingdom. Whether or not the information is accurate (and I expect it is), you can be absolutely certain that the above-named will make no effort to present it in a reasonable context. In my own opinion, citations from such sources are equivalent to citations from Hell itself and should not happen on this site.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have heard that there are people, who "The person choose to side with lucifer in the pre-existence but due to the atonement they still were not past forgiveness to receive his grace and mercy so they were still able to get a body"...

Not sure how true but it wouldn't surprise me.

Whether one passed the first estate test or not is not up to the individual as much as it is God's decision that the person does not merit or have it in their heart to go on any further. I doubt God makes a mistake in that decision or changes His mind as it will be with the second estate test. Why would God give something to an individual that they did not want? Choosing to side with Lucifer in the pre-mortal existence without a veil, with everything on the table is not a flip-of-a-coin decision. It is a heartfelt one that reveals one's true nature, their heart's desire. The decision God makes to cast out Lucifer and all of his followers is based in the individual's character not being compatible with one that could receive glory. They are incapable of receiving this glory, it is not just a matter of want. '

God is pretty definitive with His line in the sand. If you are not one ye are not mine, etc. And " 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

[Martain]

I can safely say that if Hitler had in his life a fair and just opportunity to accept and live the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and did not then he will be resurrected to a telestial glory.

How can I be so sure?

Hitler did not have the light and knowledge necessary to become a son of perdition and died that way. Since one can not sin against the holy ghost in the spirit world, he will not be going to outer darkness.

If Hitler did have a fair and just opportunity to live and accept the gospel in this life then based on his murders he is cut off from both the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms and has been suffering and will continue to suffer the Justice of God until his resurrection to a telestial glory after the millennium has ended. If this is the case, if work was done for him in the temple, it has no redemptive power for by his own acts during life he has placed himself beyond such.

I am not one to subscribe to the idea that there were individuals who having sided with Satan in the pre-existence intentionally falsely professed faith in Christ so as to be given a body to better 'infiltrate' Satan's enemies. God has all knowledge now and had all knowledge then. He knew who really had faith in Christ and who really chose Christ over Lucifer and would have judged them by their actions and the intents of their hearts as he does us now.

Adam was worthy to come as Adam. Cain was worthy to come as Adam's son. Lucifer, before his rebellion was worthy to exercise the authority in God's presence that he exercised. All who come to earth were worthy via deeds and faith in Christ to come to earth.

Hence why it is so tragic when Lucifer, Cain and any of us then choose to rebel against God.

[Magen_Avot]

I have heard that there are people, who "The person choose to side with lucifer in the pre-existence but due to the atonement they still were not past forgiveness to receive his grace and mercy so they were still able to get a body"...

Not sure how true but it wouldn't surprise me.

Those who kept not their first estate obtaining the blessings of the atonement?

Haven't heard that before and while I don't view it as doctrine, we know Christ will forgive whom He will.

Any source material? Doesn't sound like it but thought I'd ask. Sounds interesting though.

[Blackmarch]

HI,

I am an LDS scientist.

Can you touch a spirit being?

I joined looking for opinions on this topic

I think not for two reasons:

First in John 3 talking to Nicodemus: "the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the spirit.

Second, Jesus in talking to Thomas after the resurrection, invited Thomas to thrust his hands into His wounds as if to confirm that He was not just a spirit but a resurrected being.

We are telepathic beings - what else is a silent prayer? Perhaps some of the sensation of touching spirits is more in the mind than actual touch. But I doubt a spirit could break your finger for example.

Comments?

TOG

I am new here. email is [moderator removed]

There are instants in scripture and various histories where something is caused by an unseen force that do not correspond with anything we really have good experience with today, which would suggest that a spirit could in some way interact with the physical world... whether or not we would be able to recognize such an interaction is another matter.

could a spirit break a finger? we have no idea, but I would not count it outside the realm of possibility.

Is prayer telepathy (again which is pretty broad in definition)? it's certainly possible, but again as we don't know the exact mechanics of how God receives them it might just as easily be by some other means.

[Upcountry]

Helen Radkey is openly apostate. The Utah Lighthouse Ministry is a Satanic organization dedicated to the overthrow of God's kingdom. Whether or not the information is accurate (and I expect it is), you can be absolutely certain that the above-named will make no effort to present it in a reasonable context. In my own opinion, citations from such sources are equivalent to citations from Hell itself and should not happen on this site.

Thank you for the clarification. I was not aware of her classification since I found the info on Google.

However, the important point is whether the data is correct and both of us suspect that it is.

Baptism for the Dead is a rite of this church. We do not judge. As a Child of God, Hitler certainly would be eligible. If we have ceased to baptize in similar cases, I would hope the reason is that LDS wishes to avoid controversy not because we have judged the COG ineligible. We should not be ashamed of our doctrine even if it leads to condemnation by outsiders and is used against us.

As to the issue of the source, your quote is the equivalent of saying that if you heard it of Fox News, it doesn't count as news. Sorry. The truth is the truth whatever its source. The issue should be: Is it the truth?.