Am I wrong in my thinking?

[circusboy01]

Last Sunday, at church, while waiting, in the hallway, for the youth to set up chairs for Priesthood opening exercises. I saw a HP walk up behind a teen girl and swat her on the butt.It made me feel uncomfortable, because it didn't seem like the proper thing to do.

The girl, who is very beautiful. ( don't know if that has anything to do with it. But, it might)

was not upset. In fact. When she turned around and saw who it was they exchanged pleasantries. I don't know. Perhaps she could be his daughter. But even if she is the gesture just seems inappropriate, for inside the church.

I have talked to an old friend through e-mail, and she says that I should talk to the Bishop. I also belong to another site LDS Singles. I posted about this. The ones that commented on the post all said I should talk to my HP group leader or the Bishop.

My concerns are. I don't want to take up the Bishop's or HPGL's time if this is nothing I should be concerned about.

I was thinking about watching and waiting to see if it happens again, in which case I will talk to the Bishop.

What do you folks think? Wait to see if it happens again, or talk to the Bishop now? Thanks Brother Ray.

[Anddenex]

Appears inappropriate to me. I think the best course of action speak with the individual directly.

[circusboy01]

Appears inappropriate to me. I think the best course of action speak with the individual directly.

I would never be able to get myself to do that

[skippy740]

Because YOU are uncomfortable, that is enough of a reason to talk to the Bishop.

One of two things may happen:

1) The Bishop may know both of them and let you know that he is her uncle or some other relationship... and that it's probably nothing.

2) The Bishop may talk to the HP in question and help take care of this.

IMO, this falls under sexual harassment... and because you witnessed it, you can report it (to the Bishop), because it bothers YOU.

You will feel better once you do, regardless of what the outcome is.

[circusboy01]

Because YOU are uncomfortable, that is enough of a reason to talk to the Bishop.

One of two things may happen:

1) The Bishop may know both of them and let you know that he is her uncle or some other relationship... and that it's probably nothing.

2) The Bishop may talk to the HP in question and help take care of this.

IMO, this falls under sexual harassment... and because you witnessed it, you can report it (to the Bishop), because it bothers YOU.

You will feel better once you do, regardless of what the outcome is.

I'm sure you're right. Thank you

[Drpepper]

Last Sunday, at church, while waiting, in the hallway, for the youth to set up chairs for Priesthood opening exercises. I saw a HP walk up behind a teen girl and swat her on the butt.It made me feel uncomfortable, because it didn't seem like the proper thing to do.

The girl, who is very beautiful. ( don't know if that has anything to do with it. But, it might)

was not upset. In fact. When she turned around and saw who it was they exchanged pleasantries. I don't know. Perhaps she could be his daughter. But even if she is the gesture just seems inappropriate, for inside the church.

I have talked to an old friend through e-mail, and she says that I should talk to the Bishop. I also belong to another site LDS Singles. I posted about this. The ones that commented on the post all said I should talk to my HP group leader or the Bishop.

My concerns are. I don't want to take up the Bishop's or HPGL's time if this is nothing I should be concerned about.

I was thinking about watching and waiting to see if it happens again, in which case I will talk to the Bishop.

What do you folks think? Wait to see if it happens again, or talk to the Bishop now? Thanks Brother Ray.

Would definitely seem dodgy from the outset. However i would be hesitant to approach the Bishop. Can you imagine everyone approaching the Bishop over things they have seen , heard or done.

I would do some research first on the relationship. It seems she wasnt to fussed by what happened. Not that that makes it right..... maybe check with the HPGL first.

[MarginOfError]

Because YOU are uncomfortable, that is enough of a reason to talk to the Bishop.

One of two things may happen:

1) The Bishop may know both of them and let you know that he is her uncle or some other relationship... and that it's probably nothing.

2) The Bishop may talk to the HP in question and help take care of this.

IMO, this falls under sexual harassment... and because you witnessed it, you can report it (to the Bishop), because it bothers YOU.

You will feel better once you do, regardless of what the outcome is.

Doesn't sexual harassment require an element of unwelcome advances or behavior?

I agree that you need to find out what the relationship between the two individuals. If he was involved in her upbringing from the time that she was a small child, it may be an extension of that relationship. There are a number of reasons why this action may have taken place without seeming to have bothered the girl.

I would also say that you need to figure out why this bothers you. If the gesture along makes you uncomfortable, then it's probably worth bringing up (although she might not feel like she's being sexually harassed, third parties can be sexually harassed in workplaces). If you're just concerned about the action happening between those two specific individuals, then it is probably fair to leave the decision up to those individuals.

[nick40]

I am new here and dont really know about lds but reading this it appears you tell bishop things almost like high school is that right?

[nick40]

Would definitely seem dodgy from the outset. However i would be hesitant to approach the Bishop. Can you imagine everyone approaching the Bishop over things they have seen , heard or done.

I would do some research first on the relationship. It seems she wasnt to fussed by what happened. Not that that makes it right..... maybe check with the HPGL first.

I agree that seems better idea, here in Italy if a man saw this happend the man would probly hit the other man depends of course age of girl

[Irishcolleen]

It is very wrong for an adult to touch a teen on the rear. Because the girl is a minor it needs to be reported. I would tell the parents and Bishop. If that is how he acts with teens in public, what might he be doing if he ever has a chance to be alone with them? Trust your instincts! Don't you think if it made you uncomfortable that it is the Spirit leading you?

[mnn727]

The O.P. knows nothing of the relationship. I think its time for them to butt out.

[pam]

The O.P. knows nothing of the relationship. I think its time for them to butt out.

Really? So if we see inappropriate behavior with a minor child, we should just butt out? I think I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Canuck Mormon]

The O.P. knows nothing of the two people involved. They don't even know the names. If it was me who smacked my older daughter on the behind and then I was called into the Bishop's office to explain myself, that would probably be my last day in that ward or even church altogether. If people know nothing of the relationship, they should "butt" out.

[skippy740]

Doesn't sexual harassment require an element of unwelcome advances or behavior?

In the workplace, all you have to do is witness something that makes you uncomfortable... and it's sexual harassment. It doesn't even have to INVOLVE you.

Yes, this is Church, not work. But I don't see why there has to be a distinction.

If you saw and witnessed something inappropriate, it makes you uncomfortable. So you DO something about it.

[skippy740]

The O.P. knows nothing of the two people involved. They don't even know the names. If it was me who smacked my older daughter on the behind and then I was called into the Bishop's office to explain myself, that would probably be my last day in that ward or even church altogether. If people know nothing of the relationship, they should "butt" out.

I don't think that smacking your own teenage daughter's behind in public is appropriate behavior and perhaps a talking to that parent is in the daughter's best interests.

We know NOTHING about them, you're right. However, these things are just inappropriate public behavior. At the very least, a talking to the parent/adult about what is appropriate and what isn't... might be a good lesson for him. It could prevent future problems.

[skippy740]

My guess is that no one else on this thread has ever done BSA Youth Protection training.

Basically, if something is inappropriate, you DO something about it.

"Do what is right let the consequence follow."

[Dravin]

I am new here and dont really know about lds but reading this it appears you tell bishop things almost like high school is that right?

I think a lot of people tend to run to the bishop over interpersonal questions when they should be attempting to handle them by themselves first.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Dravin

[skippy740]

For interpersonal conflicts... I agree.

For sexually inappropriate conduct... even in the workplace, there are ways to report inappropriate conduct on an anonymous basis.

I don't think the Church has a "hotline" for reporting anything like this. The POLICE does... and no one is suggesting this course of action (yet).

A private discussion in the Bishop's office is the CLOSEST one has in the ward to report on a semi-anonymous basis.

[Dravin]

For sexually inappropriate conduct... even in the workplace, there are ways to report inappropriate conduct on an anonymous basis.

Of course we don't know if it was sexually inappropriate behavior. The person best capable of making that call is the person, among us here, who actually saw it. There is a lot of different potential actions contained in the phrase "swat her on the butt". The OP focuses on the inappropriate behavior for inside of the Church, if it was sexually inappropriate conduct why would it be appropriate outside of the Church? Why would blood relations matter? This strikes me as the PDA thread all over again.

If it's a case of different ideas of acceptable displays of affection and family dynamics (not having seen the action I can't judge which it was by myself), talk to the person first. And if it's child abuse talk to the police/CPS first.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Dravin

[Dravin]

For sexually inappropriate conduct... even in the workplace, there are ways to report inappropriate conduct on an anonymous basis.

Of course we don't know if it was sexually inappropriate behavior. The person best capable of making that call is the person who actually saw it. There is a lot of different potential actions contained in the phrase "swat her on the butt". The OP focuses on the inappropriate behavior for inside of the Church, if it was sexually inappropriate conduct why would it be appropriate outside of the Church? This strikes me as the PDA thread all over again.

[Finrock]

Good morning Canuck Mormon. I hope you are having a good day! :)

The O.P. knows nothing of the two people involved. They don't even know the names. If it was me who smacked my older daughter on the behind and then I was called into the Bishop's office to explain myself, that would probably be my last day in that ward or even church altogether. If people know nothing of the relationship, they should "butt" out.

I would be thankful that someone was looking out for my daughter. Sexual predators very often groom their victims first by gaining their trust and getting the victim used to being touched by the predator.

In any case, I don't understand the inclination at all to want to leave the Church because someone was concerned enough about a person that they reported a potentially dangerous situation to the bishop.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited May 21, 2013 by Finrock

[Vort]

I could see patting my daughter's rear end. Inappropriate? I don't know. Maybe. But how far we must have fallen as a people to want to turn someone into the authorities because he patted his daughter on the rear end.

If it wasn't his daughter, then that strikes me as kind of weird. But since the girl clearly was not offended, it's probably safe to say the observer should not have been offended, either.

[Finrock]

Here is some information to help understand how sexual predators operate:

Most offenders are very adept at manipulating their victims and will do and say just about anything to achieve their goal. Offenders will make the victim feel as though they are special and shower them with attention. They will appear to be totally interested in them, more so than their parents, siblings, or other friends. Offenders will often develop a nonsexual relationship with their victim before any sexual contact occurs. Some offenders will develop a relationship with a child for as long as six months before they begin to molest them. They are able to connect with a child on their level by familiarizing themselves with the child’s interest in video games, TV shows, music, books and movies. Once a friendship or emotional bond is developed between the offender and the child, the offender will begin the grooming behaviors that will lead to the sexual molestation. Children love attention which can make them easy prey. The victim may deplore the sexual abuse but enjoys the other aspects of their relationship with the offender.

Offenders will test the victim’s reaction to their touch by engaging in non-sexual contact such as wrestling, tickling, hugging, stroking their hair, etc. Offenders have described this as “covert abuse”. Offenders will “inadvertently” touch the victim’s private parts to gage their reaction. If the victim reacted negatively the offender would apologize and tell the victim the touch was accidental. If the victim did not react negatively to the touch offenders perceive this as a “green light” to continue. Some offenders reported that while sexually molesting a child they would talk to the child telling them, “It’s okay, this is normal, everyone goes through this,” or they may ask the victim if what they were doing was okay or if it felt good. If the victim acknowledged that the sexual touching felt good or that what the offender was doing was okay, the offender used this as part of their justification to continue and also as a manipulation to ensure non-disclosure. Offenders are very adept at making victims feel responsible for the abuse, thereby making it very difficult for the victim to report the abuse. Offenders coerce the victim into believing that if they report the abuse they would get into as much trouble as the offender. Consequently, children are often reluctant to report the abuse because they are afraid that they have done something wrong and will be punished (Emphasis added).

Source

http://www.reid.com/training_programs/buckley-sexual_offenders.pdf

Respectfully,

Finrock

[Finrock]

If it wasn't his daughter, then that strikes me as kind of weird. But since the girl clearly was not offended, it's probably safe to say the observer should not have been offended, either.

I believe this advice is incorrect. Just because the girl did not show any outward expression of offense or even if she didn't actually feel offended does not mean that all is well. Sexual predators are masters at manipulating their victims and making them feel like inappropriate behavior is OK.

Regards,

Finrock

[Irishcolleen]

I don't think it is appropriate for a parent to touch a teen or child's butt. If they are out of diapers and don't need help wiping anymore anything covered by a swimsuit is off limits.