hard time understanding church decision on BSA

[pooter1]

Help me understand why this is ok with the church.Why don't we let the boys and girls sleep in the same room at youth conference? Isn't it the same thing with gay boys sleeping with boys at a campout? My very weak testimony just got weaker with this statement from the church. I truly want to understand this. I thought God was unchanging and not respector of men. I just can't wrap my head around this decision. Can anyone explain this to me?

[Daneng]

It seemed odd to me at first but then realising that the key to the knowledge of God lies with the First Pres. Not a great current arrangement with the BSA but I also believe rules in the org have been tightened.

Dan

[Canuck Mormon]

Help me understand why this is ok with the church.Why don't we let the boys and girls sleep in the same room at youth conference? Isn't it the same thing with gay boys sleeping with boys at a campout? My very weak testimony just got weaker with this statement from the church. I truly want to understand this. I thought God was unchanging and not respector of men. I just can't wrap my head around this decision. Can anyone explain this to me?

Seriously? So you're saying that we should make these boys feel even more like outsiders and not give them support and loving just because they aren't attracted to women? Please show me where God said to shun people who are different? It's this kind of attitude that causes these young men to take their lives.

I seem to recall a leader saying "Love the sinner, hate the sin", or something like that.

[HiJolly]

Help me understand why this is ok with the church.

It's ok because we believe in the basic goodness of people. Even gay people. It used to be that we LDS assumed the worst of gays because it was thought that they CHOSE to be gay. Based on some things (that could be debated, but I don't want to), the Church has changed its view, and IMO rightly no longer makes that assumption (even though President Packer chooses to still believe it).

Why don't we let the boys and girls sleep in the same room at youth conference? Isn't it the same thing with gay boys sleeping with boys at a campout?

While I don't think these are the same, at the same time I also am very curious how the BSA/Church are going to arrange things on a practical level. I look forward to hearing the 'plan', and I really hope it makes sense. I think maybe you're assuming it _can't_ make sense.

My very weak testimony just got weaker with this statement from the church. I truly want to understand this. I thought God was unchanging and not respector of men. I just can't wrap my head around this decision. Can anyone explain this to me?

God always changes his instructions to us, depending on how we are. Really, it's a pretty much constant thing, as long as there are prophets on the earth. No need to lose your testimony, unless it is founded on false ideas. In which case, you're vastly better off changing with the Church.

HiJolly

Edited May 24, 2013 by HiJolly
Changed 'Elder' for 'President'

[estradling75]

Read here for a nice summary of scriptural teachings and how they apply to the subject (it is an official church site) Mormons and Gays It is the foundation that you need to understand to grapple with this.

Next lets example how the Church and BSA interact. The Church uses the BSA as an activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood. The Church controls all that happens on the local level. (For Church sponsored groups) In theory Districts, Council and even National parts of the BSA are there to support the local level. As long as this remains basically true I don't see the Church leaving the BSA.

If and when the BSA tries to start controlling who the local leaders are that is when I see the break coming.

Until then... the Bishop chooses who the local leaders are that teach the local boys he is over. It doesn't matter what the BSA might allow as long as the final call is with the Bishop. So even had the leadership side of this issue passed I didn't see a big change coming.

As for the boys...Well again generally speaking the boys in the local troop are going to be members of the local ward. If one of them has a same sex attraction and is struggling with it while coming to church your boys already know them and see them on Sunday. If you have a boy that is actively Gay (which is weird given the ages are 12-16) then he has a Chasity issue that the bishop needs to be aware of and dealing with.. So how to you deal with one that are struggling??? See the linked website.

As for the local groups that aren't Church controlled and things like District, Council and National activities... As far as I have seen camping is still broken down by the local groups... So it means your sons will have to deal with them about as much and they would have to when they are out in the world anyways. But the whole camping thing is still a local issue handled by local leaders.

[pooter1]

I mean no offense to gays.I wouldn't want my son rooming with someone that might have feelings for them.Same thing with gay boys who are camping ogether and might have affections for the boy he is sleeping beside.I would feel the same way if the church said it was ok for girls and boys to room together for youth conference. I also don't understand if we are letting gay youth in scouts why not gay adults? Do they turn into pedifiles when they turn into gay adults.I don't get any of this.

[Guest]

I mean no offense to gays.I wouldn't want my son rooming with someone that might have feelings for them.Same thing with gay boys who are camping ogether and might have affections for the boy he is sleeping beside.I would feel the same way if the church said it was ok for girls and boys to room together for youth conference. I also don't understand if we are letting gay youth in scouts why not gay adults? Do they turn into pedifiles when they turn into gay adults.I don't get any of this.

Angel... there is a big difference between being gay and having sex with the same gender. What the Church does is to train boys (gay, straight, asexual, whatever) to carry the MALE gender role. This prepares them for the responsibilities of the Priesthood and Fatherhood. They use the BSA programs as a way to train these boys the APPLICATION of the gospel teachings.

So, in that sense, gay boys benefit from Church Scouting as they prepare for their male gender role and would hopefully help them live chaste lives all the way to adulthood.

The way we have traditionally looked at Gay Leaders is that these leaders have chosen to be actively homosexual. Because, why else would you refer to yourself as gay if you're not actively practicing it? Nobody asks you who you had sex with yesterday, you know what I mean? But, it seems like there has been a shift in this thinking to call people gay even if they are not actively living a homosexual lifestyle... I guess it's the same as calling somebody diabetic - just to identify the challenges they face, dunno.

Anyway, when we raise our hands as scouts to promise to be morally correct - this includes not living a homosexual lifestyle. So leaders are expected to uphold this promise and not flaunt disobedience of it.

Now, about the rooming arrangements... yeah, I'm not quite sure how all that would work out.

Edited May 24, 2013 by anatess

[EarlJibbs]

I mean no offense to gays.I wouldn't want my son rooming with someone that might have feelings for them.Same thing with gay boys who are camping ogether and might have affections for the boy he is sleeping beside.I would feel the same way if the church said it was ok for girls and boys to room together for youth conference. I also don't understand if we are letting gay youth in scouts why not gay adults? Do they turn into pedifiles when they turn into gay adults.I don't get any of this.

By no means do I condone homosexuality. But just by being gay you are not automatically going perve someone.

As far as the gay adults, if they are claiming that they are actively engaging in homosex, then that doesnt meet the standards the scouts have currently. I imagine that if a boy said that he was active, the leadership would review, at least as much as a heterosexual. If you are concerned, it may be wise to meet with your leadership after they have had time to discuss the changes.

[skippy740]

Within the Church... I don't think anything is going to change. While the BSA is a community program (and yes, we do allow non-members to be a part of LDS troops, but it seems to be rather rare), the standards of the Chartering Organization take precedence. I think I'd be a little more concerned about school chartered troops than those chartered by a Church.

I wouldn't worry about it within LDS troops.

Just for some food for thought: The mission field isn't immune either. I remember one particular missionary that served in my zone. I could tell that he was a lot more 'sensitive' and different than the others he served with. And it wasn't like he tried too hard to hide it either. (He had a bunch of N'sync dolls in the apartment as his biggest 'give-away' as well as other traits.)

My companion and I consulted with the Mission President just to help US learn how to best work with him. We had to assume that he was worthy to serve... because he was serving. But WE needed some help, so we sought it.

I don't wish for minor-age boys to have to figure this out at their age necessarily, but they will need to learn how to deal with these kinds of situation at SOME point in their lives... because it's not going to go away.

They might as well learn it while they are living at home and under the direction of a worthy Scoutmaster who can teach the boys correct gospel principles and be good examples of LDS youth.

[NeuroTypical]

One thing to keep in mind: There can be a big difference between God-breathed truth given by revelation, and a policy enacted after careful and prayerful consideration.

God-breathed truth never changes, and has always been. Policies are created, and often change.

None of this means the church isn't true.

[derblitzenator]

My take is that the church is picking its battles. To save the BSA program from liability, it had to compromise and allow openly gay scouts into the program. In all practicaility, this will affect very few troops. Most troops will have zero openly gay members. Most gays don't come out until late teens and I'd assume they'd lose interest in scouting too in most instances.

I would guess that they'll instruct the scout leaders not to allow gay scouts to be in a tent alone with another scout. They'll probably put them in bigger tents of 3 or more, so there's less temptations all around. Parents will weigh in about taking certain precautions around the gay kids.

[MarginOfError]

My take is that the church is picking its battles. To save the BSA program from liability, it had to compromise and allow openly gay scouts into the program. In all practicaility, this will affect very few troops. Most troops will have zero openly gay members. Most gays don't come out until late teens and I'd assume they'd lose interest in scouting too in most instances.

Seeing as the policy voted on yesterday has been the defacto policy of the Church for a number of years now, I doubt this was a matter of "picking its battles."

[pooter1]

Reading and thinking about all of this. I keep forgeting that WE the church are not the BSA. Im more concerned about the sleeping arrangements then anything I guess.

[Guest]

Reading and thinking about all of this. I keep forgeting that WE the church are not the BSA. Im more concerned about the sleeping arrangements then anything I guess.

My husband is a Scout leader. He is currently in the 11-year-old scouts. Our boys sleep with him in all their camping trips in Cub Scouts even if he is not the leader in that particular Scout pack. He plans to continue the same practice even when the boys are already in Boy Scouting. In Church, all Boy Scouting activities are open to the fathers of the Scouts.

[Jennarator]

My concern as a parent is not so much that anything is going to happen with my boys, since those boys need to ALL live the standards. My concern is that the boys might be looking at my boys when they are changing or something. It is kind of like having both girls and boys in the same tent. Perhaps nothing is going to happen, but the looking doesn't need to happen, either. I think it makes for a very inappropriate situation. I do also realize that it is not going to be a super common thing, however common enough for my concern. I have 4 boys. I am not taking them out of scouts, however depending on how things play out, it could come to that. Out scout leader already said he will ask to be released if something comes out and he has a gay scout to look after. He isn't trying to be prejudiced just not sure how to handle it. He doesn't want boys checking out other boys.

[jerome1232]

Reading and thinking about all of this. I keep forgeting that WE the church are not the BSA. Im more concerned about the sleeping arrangements then anything I guess.

Honestly, it's a bit different than the proposed boy/ girl sleeping in the same tent scenario where the attraction is shared. With the occurrence of at most 6% of the population being homosexual, it'd be awfully rare for a troop to have more than one homosexual member at a time. I think the situation you are contemplating (two homosexual boys sharing a tent) would be the very rare exception rather than a commonplace norm.

My question is, when that situation does come up, would groups cry discrimination if the boys were not allowed to sleep in the same tent? Regulating sleeping arrangements would seem a sensible move to me.

[Wingnut]

My concern as a parent is not so much that anything is going to happen with my boys, since those boys need to ALL live the standards. My concern is that the boys might be looking at my boys when they are changing or something. It is kind of like having both girls and boys in the same tent. Perhaps nothing is going to happen, but the looking doesn't need to happen, either. I think it makes for a very inappropriate situation. I do also realize that it is not going to be a super common thing, however common enough for my concern. I have 4 boys. I am not taking them out of scouts, however depending on how things play out, it could come to that. Out scout leader already said he will ask to be released if something comes out and he has a gay scout to look after. He isn't trying to be prejudiced just not sure how to handle it. He doesn't want boys checking out other boys.

Will you also not allow your sons to play sports or attend a gym class with homosexual boys?

[Jenamarie]

My concern as a parent is not so much that anything is going to happen with my boys, since those boys need to ALL live the standards. My concern is that the boys might be looking at my boys when they are changing or something. It is kind of like having both girls and boys in the same tent. Perhaps nothing is going to happen, but the looking doesn't need to happen, either. I think it makes for a very inappropriate situation. I do also realize that it is not going to be a super common thing, however common enough for my concern. I have 4 boys. I am not taking them out of scouts, however depending on how things play out, it could come to that. Out scout leader already said he will ask to be released if something comes out and he has a gay scout to look after. He isn't trying to be prejudiced just not sure how to handle it. He doesn't want boys checking out other boys.

I was uncomfortable changing around the other YW in my ward at Girl's Camp, for reasons unrelated to sexuality. I changed in the bathroom instead. A young man who's worried about being "checked out" could do likewise, or wait until he's alone in the tent to change.

[Guest]

Will you also not allow your sons to play sports or attend a gym class with homosexual boys?

I had a thread on this a long time back. I don't understand why it's okay in the USA to go bare nekked in a public locker. I still don't understand this today.

[jerome1232]

I had a thread on this a long time back. I don't understand why it's okay in the USA to go bare nekked in a public locker. I still don't understand this today.

Where else are you supposed to run around in your birthday suit? At home? That's not as fun.

[Guest]

Where else are you supposed to run around in your birthday suit? At home? That's not as fun.

No fair! I can't laugh in this thread....

[Anddenex]

Help me understand why this is ok with the church.

I think the Church was pretty clear in its statement saying, "The Church’s long-established policy for participation in activities is stated in the basic instructional handbook used by lay leaders of the Church: “young men … who agree to abide by Church standards” are “welcomed warmly and encouraged to participate” (Handbook 2: Administering the Church [2010], 8.17.3). This policy applies to Church-sponsored Scout units. Sexual orientation has not previously been—and is not now—a disqualifying factor for boys who want to join Latter-day Saint Scout troops. Willingness to abide by standards of behavior continues to be our compelling interest."

This statement correlates with calling in the Church also. Members who are have same gender attractions are not withheld from holding any calling within the Church as long as they keep the commandments of God.

Why don't we let the boys and girls sleep in the same room at youth conference? Isn't it the same thing with gay boys sleeping with boys at a campout?

I agree. It appears some of the arguments are based upon "attraction" rather than principle. If a boy and a girl were without attraction toward each other, would we allow them to sleep in the same tent? No.

I agree with regulating sleeping arrangements if a boy is openly gay, just as I agree with opposite genders not sleeping in the same tent. If arrangements are regulated then we don't need to worry about the potential, albeit small potential, of two young men who are attracted to each being in the same tent.

My very weak testimony just got weaker with this statement from the church. I truly want to understand this. I thought God was unchanging and not respector of men. I just can't wrap my head around this decision. Can anyone explain this to me?

I, honestly, do not understand this statement. I do not understand why people would choose to let go of their witness from the Holy Ghost. The Church is either God's true and established Church, or it isn't. If it is, then we have promise God will not allow his prophets to lead the Church into forbidden paths. Whether I agree or disagree with decisions made by those God has called is obsolete/irrelevant. If you have received a witness, from the Holy Ghost, then trust in that witness and prepare for new revelation, changes to policy, and keep the chin up. :)

[LittleWyvern]

Also, keep in mind that the core of the Church's decision was to not change its standards in any way whatsoever. Anybody who is trying to convince people that the Church has "caved," "acquiesced," or "wavered" in any way either aren't paying attention or are looking for ways to discredit the Church.

[mdfxdb]

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong is that they are allowing "openly" gay scouts. So in a certain way they have recinded their don't ask don't tell policy. Who is to say there aren't gay scouts in the program who aren't openly gay? Do people still have the same concerns about their kids being "checked out", or sleeping arrangements if the scouts aren't "openly" gay?

So it's OK for a scout who is in the closet to check out another scout, but if he's openly gay, well then suddenly there's a problem? I don't see how this policy change in any way reflects poorly on the church, or the upholding of church standards.

[derblitzenator]

Seeing as the policy voted on yesterday has been the defacto policy of the Church for a number of years now, I doubt this was a matter of "picking its battles."

ever so slightly. The church used to kick vocal and open gays out of troops. This usually only happened in reality when they were 16 or 17 and already had their Eagle and wanted to remain in the trrop as a leader. Based on the new policy, the church is more likely to retain them in the future. But again, open gays in troops are extremely rare.